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Smyth "embarassing"

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Old
03-04-2007, 12:46 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by alanschu View Post
Heh, if they get offended, then I can't see how ego is not involved.
Not anymore than the ego that causes you to lowball your first offer. So, it gets back to my point that I don't see how Smyth has more ego than Lowe.

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03-04-2007, 01:37 PM
  #102
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I would say this thread is library worthy.

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03-04-2007, 01:53 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by rec28 View Post
No one here hates Ryan Smyth. Most of us - me included - love him to death. That doesn't mean we are blind to the fact that, while he is an excellent player, he is simply not an elite player. He is not in the same class as Lecavalier, Thornton, Crosby, Iginla, etc, etc, etc - and he never will be. That's no slight on Smyth, it's just reality. Yes, outscoring is great, but it gets way too much traction here, imo - you also need a guy who can simply dominate and outplay the opposition and carry the team on his back when necessary. We haven't had that kind of player for a long, long time. We already have some good outscorers, but we don't have a legitimate game-breaker.

If you are paying Smyth elite money to be your best player, you are going to struggle to be above average every year. We've gone the route of having Smyth as our franchise player for several years - the only real success we've had during that time was when we also had a truly elite superstar anchoring the team. It's time for a change.
In case you didnt notice, elite players earn 7+mm, not 5.5mm. Sure you need that elite player, but you also need the smyth's of the world. Look how well boston did with their elite player. Or Columbus, they got their D-man. Wheres their stanley cup??? NY Islanders? They have a few yet they still figure they need Ryan Smyth. Get it through your head, the Oilers need an elite player, sure. They also need the Ryan Smyths of this world. Figure it out.

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03-04-2007, 02:09 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Meanashell11 View Post
In case you didnt notice, elite players earn 7+mm, not 5.5mm. Sure you need that elite player, but you also need the smyth's of the world. Look how well boston did with their elite player. Or Columbus, they got their D-man. Wheres their stanley cup??? NY Islanders? They have a few yet they still figure they need Ryan Smyth. Get it through your head, the Oilers need an elite player, sure. They also need the Ryan Smyths of this world. Figure it out.
Sorry to butt in here, I know you were replying to rec28, but I believe the trouble with signing Ryan to 5.5 is that you lose the ability to get an elite player for 7 plus. If you sign Ryan for 5.5, (just for spec.) Vinnie for 7.5, you have Rollie for 4.5, Horcoff for 3.6 you have 21.1 in salary for 4 guys. Now you have to have 20 other players for 18.9 million (because of their self imposed cap). Remove Pisani's 2.5 from the allowable amount, and we have apretty skinny lineup.

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03-04-2007, 02:29 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Meanashell11 View Post
In case you didnt notice, elite players earn 7+mm, not 5.5mm. Sure you need that elite player, but you also need the smyth's of the world. Look how well boston did with their elite player. Or Columbus, they got their D-man. Wheres their stanley cup??? NY Islanders? They have a few yet they still figure they need Ryan Smyth. Get it through your head, the Oilers need an elite player, sure. They also need the Ryan Smyths of this world. Figure it out.
First of all, kindly piss off with the "get it through your head" type of invective. It's neither constructive nor necessary.

You sure pick some strange examples to bolster your argument. Columbus has an elite Dman? Who? I can only assume you are referring to Foote - a great defensive defenseman whose career best is 27 points. The Islanders have a few? Name one. Yashin? Please - in the last five years he's toped 70 points once. He has some skill, but there's a giant sucking vacuum where his heart should be. Satan? A perennial 65-70 point complimentary player, and not exactly a physical, dominating force out there. Kozlov? Sillinger? Not even close to franchise players.

The only argument you present that makes some sense is Boston, but the fact remains that even teams with good players can have bad years.

In terms of salary, you are correct, there are some 7+ contracts out there. But for 5.5 you are getting into sub-elite/elite territory. If you are going to be handing out that kind of money, why not spend a little more and get a much bigger bang for the buck than what Smyth can provide. I don't have time to look for them, but others have posted lists of players being paid ~5M or more - Smyth sticks out like a sore thumb amongst most of them.

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03-04-2007, 02:56 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by hillbillypriest View Post
One thing though, I don't remember ANY chatter on this board about getting Smyth signed. May be my memory - I'm old you know. (Old enough to actually understand all or your Montreal Expos recollections). I don't think so, though. I don't think the need to sign Ryan hit any of our consciousness until after the Brian Hall show spot came out in November. On the other hand. I remember a lot of consternation about getting Hemsky signed. I also recall that most people were pretty happy about this. here's a link:

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=274883&page=1

Looking through this link. Everybody seems to be very happy about the long term deal. I scrolled up to 10 pages in the Hemsky signing thread. I didn't see one reference to the potential for Hemsky signing long term to have a negative impact on Smyth. It wasn't on the radar.
Sheesh, some of us go on holidays for awhile Either that or I would've felt like a social parriah negatively commenting in that specific thread but I have consistently ever since the deal which people here would be aware of. I also specifically tied in how the Hemsky $ would make difficult the Smyth signing. I went as far as to comment that Smyth will be required to ensure that this contract $ for Hemsky is properly results supported by signing Smyth longterm. To do one without the other in my perspective didn't make as much sense .

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I think it's pretty cavalier from our vantage point today to impute that Ryan Smyth was not in the plans. I don't believe that. Lowe was unbelievably busy last summer. In my books, signing contracts with people who are unsigned trumps extensions with the signed on the "to do" list. That's just logistics of getting things done. In every one of Lowe's negotiations, the agents of his counterparties used whatever tactic they could to up the amount paid. Every one of the negotiations would have taken thought, time, effort and would have involved somebody's ego
.You've convinced me on this part.

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Given all the things to do, I would think it would be pretty petty of Smyth to take offense that other business was getting done before his extension. I don't know if that was the case or not. There seems to be some evidence of this though, namely the fact that Smyth went public with his discontent when Staois got signed. However, what's Lowe supposed to do? Given that the Smyth renewal discussions had been shelved until after the season by mutual consent by that time, what was Lowe supposed to do? Stop everything until Smyth was signed? To me, that's rediculous since presumably Staois and Moreau have pride and egos too. I think you contract with people that are willing to contract with you. Full stop.
I don't agree with this. You invoke "stop doing everything else" in this where that would not be necessary. Lowe could have been negotiating with all players and with his MVP player, who was saying things on the sideline. I most definitely think that Smyth talking out of character signalled a necessity for Lowe to get right on it. Smyth at that moment in time was stewing in juice that eventually became toxic.

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It also bears mentionning that it would not have been a simple matter of saying to Moreau and Staios "just a second, I've gotta give Smyth his 5 for 5 before I deal with you." Apparently that ship sailed in the Smyth Meehan camp. (Another aside: I think it's pretty telling how us fans jump all over Lowe when expectations don't materialize for a player but when a player's performance goes up and with it his market value, Lowe should have known that would happen and his failure to do this shows that he's somehow been disrespectful).
Count me as one that has been saying consistently post cap that this is a much more prolific Smytty postcap who has benefitted from calling of infractions, new rules, and who apparently got healthy during the impasse. Starting with 2004 training camp I was consistently reporting on how prolific Smyth was looking and consistently indicated this is no anomaly, we have a primo scorer again here folks. I continued to say in the fall that Klowe is playing a dangerous game this season waiting for Smyth stock to drop. Klowe bet wrong.

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It's clear that there are a whole lot of posters here that have had very consistent long term positions that Smyth is the absolute core of the team and should be signed at the market rate. I's also clear that a whole lot of reasonable people have consistently disagreed and have put some upper limits on his value too. This, of itself, tells us something. Smyth's ultimate value is - by definition - uncertain. Lowe has to make these assessments all the time. I think some of us are way to eager to apply labels like "disrespectful" or "cheap". At the end of the day it's just a decision. It could be right or wrong. However, I think we have to appreciate just how hard these decisions are and I for one was blown away by Lowe's character in making this call in the circumstances he faced on Tuesday afternoon. Given that he had made a choice on Smyth's value in his team's circumstances, he made a decision that would be right IF his assessment were correct.
A lot of whats been said including by me has been highly emotional. harder to get our heads straight at these times. To this end your posts have been a help even if we don't agree. I still see that the right time to finalize a deal was Summer, fall, and that there would be no downward correction from 36 goals.

The likely price in September was less than in February and predictably so. This is where I don't understand the non completion in fall. It wasn't going to get any easier. You either want to do the deal around a certian range or you don't.


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We will likely debate for years about this decision, but I really think it's unfair how Lowe's getting slagged.

HBP
Ethically you are right. period. We tend to be an overly vitriolic board. But I couldn't say that or see that a few days ago because anger was getting in the way...(I realize how silly that must sound)

I do think that LT nailed it in the notion that Klowe has now floated his boat and will sink or sail as a result of imbarking on this specific voyage. This was a landmark decision and could of course go either way.

Tenure and survival rides on finding land.


Last edited by Replacement: 03-04-2007 at 03:02 PM.
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Old
03-04-2007, 06:28 PM
  #107
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Hi OYler, was not thinking of you. Or anybody here. I am really mad at a lot of the talking heads on TSN, but my post was not intended to provoke anybody. Sorry if you took it that way.
I overlooked noting that your 1st post herein, and your posts in general, are very well thought-out and delivered using an effectively positive tone. Since we agree on so much, and your focus is on the unjust overresponse of Lowe's role, and my pointedness targets Ownership, I say, "Hey! thanks for the clarification."

I respect individuals, as much for their difference, as I do for their likeness.

As Michael Crichton writes in his latest novel, N E X T:
It’s not a matter of politics, of left or right. It’s a question of basic attitude—whether you are open to the future, or fearful of it. Whether you see the world as emergent, or deteriorating.
This then goes to the essential heart of it, what it means to be truly entrepreneurial of spirit: no great risk, no great reward.


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03-04-2007, 09:06 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by rec28 View Post
First of all, kindly piss off with the "get it through your head" type of invective. It's neither constructive nor necessary.

You sure pick some strange examples to bolster your argument. Columbus has an elite Dman? Who? I can only assume you are referring to Foote - a great defensive defenseman whose career best is 27 points. The Islanders have a few? Name one. Yashin? Please - in the last five years he's toped 70 points once. He has some skill, but there's a giant sucking vacuum where his heart should be. Satan? A perennial 65-70 point complimentary player, and not exactly a physical, dominating force out there. Kozlov? Sillinger? Not even close to franchise players.

The only argument you present that makes some sense is Boston, but the fact remains that even teams with good players can have bad years.

In terms of salary, you are correct, there are some 7+ contracts out there. But for 5.5 you are getting into sub-elite/elite territory. If you are going to be handing out that kind of money, why not spend a little more and get a much bigger bang for the buck than what Smyth can provide. I don't have time to look for them, but others have posted lists of players being paid ~5M or more - Smyth sticks out like a sore thumb amongst most of them.
And how many of those sub-elite/elite have won Stanley Cups without that elite player? Not many I will wager.

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03-04-2007, 11:00 PM
  #109
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First off, I like Kevin Lowe as GM.

But I find something rather strained and overreaching from some of the defenders in the Ryan Smyth trade, especially with the "Lowe had a plan" all along.

The biggest red herring: last night's HNIC hint from Lowe, when asked, that had Oilers been in a playoff spot on trade day he would have signed Smyth. He also didn't deny the $100,000, for what it's worth.

I've seen some weird ideas and conspiracies, one of them being that Smyth was not in Lowe's plans as of signing the younger core group. To this guy, the inconsistent contracts given out in July, along with the seemingly improvisational, last-ditch negotiations, lead me to wonder if Lowe has a detailed plan at all (aside from automatically hitting the "buy" or "sell" button at deadline).

That's not a diss, just some concern moving forward.

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03-04-2007, 11:45 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Pouzar View Post
First off, I like Kevin Lowe as GM.

But I find something rather strained and overreaching from some of the defenders in the Ryan Smyth trade, especially with the "Lowe had a plan" all along.

The biggest red herring: last night's HNIC hint from Lowe, when asked, that had Oilers been in a playoff spot on trade day he would have signed Smyth. He also didn't deny the $100,000, for what it's worth.

I've seen some weird ideas and conspiracies, one of them being that Smyth was not in Lowe's plans as of signing the younger core group. To this guy, the inconsistent contracts given out in July, along with the seemingly improvisational, last-ditch negotiations, lead me to wonder if Lowe has a detailed plan at all (aside from automatically hitting the "buy" or "sell" button at deadline).

That's not a diss, just some concern moving forward.
agreed 100%

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