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Something To Make Tubby Terrion's Head Explode

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Old
03-03-2007, 07:04 PM
  #1
CBGB
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Something To Make Tubby Terrion's Head Explode

Tubby pointed out that DL overpaid Derek Armstrong to be our 2nd line center.

On Kings Talk, DL said that one of the needs he's going to fill will be a SECOND LINE CENTER!

So basically, what that means is Derek Armstrong will become an expensive 3rd line center at 1.5 million, and Alyn McCauley will be the single most expensive 4th line center at 2 million.

Gotta love cap management.

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03-03-2007, 07:14 PM
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Ziggy Stardust
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A third line center that can chip in with 40+ points isn't really a bad thing. I could care less about his cap hit if they do in fact add a second line center to play behind Kopitar. And they could possibly use McCauley as a left wing during 5-on-5 situations and as a center on the PK unit.

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03-03-2007, 07:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post
A third line center that can chip in with 40+ points isn't really a bad thing. I could care less about his cap hit if they do in fact add a second line center to play behind Kopitar. And they could possibly use McCauley as a left wing during 5-on-5 situations and as a center on the PK unit.
A third line center who can that can chip in with 40+ points AND handle the defensive responsibilities of the third line is not a bad thing - Derek Armstrong isn't that guy though.

The only reason he has 40 points is because he has been given top line minutes and power play time the entire season. If he had played on the 3rd line this season, he'd be lucky to have 20 points so far.

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03-03-2007, 07:30 PM
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Fro + Cammy = Armstone 40+ points

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03-03-2007, 07:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CBGB View Post
Tubby pointed out that DL overpaid Derek Armstrong to be our 2nd line center.

On Kings Talk, DL said that one of the needs he's going to fill will be a SECOND LINE CENTER!

So basically, what that means is Derek Armstrong will become an expensive 3rd line center at 1.5 million, and Alyn McCauley will be the single most expensive 4th line center at 2 million.

Gotta love cap management.
You mean Lombardi is trying to build 4 strong lines, all 4 of which can score, play defense and compliment the others? My GOD!! Let's tar and feather him! Who's with me??!!

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03-03-2007, 07:49 PM
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Ziggy Stardust
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Armstrong has been a steady 40 point range scorer since he became a regular with the Kings in 02-03, scoring 38 in 66 his first year, 35 in 57 his second year, 41 in 62 last season and so far has 40 in 59. That's 154 points in 244 games. Not bad.

He's serviceable and I don't make a big deal if they keep him as a third line center.

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03-03-2007, 08:24 PM
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He's not a 3rd line center... not at all... he'll end up moving to the wing, I figure.

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03-03-2007, 08:45 PM
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When I saw the title of this thread, I thought it was going to mention the "Have Faith, Have Fun" game package that the Kings are offering, sponsored by that "Fish" radio station.

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03-03-2007, 08:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beauty, eh? View Post
When I saw the title of this thread, I thought it was going to mention the "Have Faith, Have Fun" game package that the Kings are offering, sponsored by that "Fish" radio station.
Believe me... that has my inner Jew chuckling.

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03-03-2007, 09:02 PM
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Believe me... that has my inner Jew chuckling.
I think it was Daryl Evans' doing

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03-03-2007, 10:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post
Armstrong has been a steady 40 point range scorer since he became a regular with the Kings in 02-03, scoring 38 in 66 his first year, 35 in 57 his second year, 41 in 62 last season and so far has 40 in 59. That's 154 points in 244 games. Not bad.
He has those numbers because he's always played with some of the best players on the team and gotten lots of powerplay time. Let's take a look at each season:

'02-'03: Played extensively with Palffy. Was 4th among forwards in PP time/game.
'03-'04: Played extensively with Robitaille, some with Palffy. Was 3rd among forwards in PP time/game.
'05-'06: Played extensively with Cammalleri, some with Frolov. Was 4th among forwards in PP time/game.
'06-'07: Played extensively with Cammalleri and Frolov. Is 5th among forwards in PP time/game.

Most of us would expect 40+ points from someone playing as much as he did with players like those. You seem to be suggesting that, being a steady 40-point scorer, Armstrong could produce like that from the 3rd line, but I see no reason to believe this. As I've shown, Armstrong has never been played as a 3rd-liner on the Kings. He's always been used as a top-6 player here. In order to get even an idea of how he might produce as a bottom-6 player, you have to go back to his pre-Kings days, where he failed to impress three teams (the Islanders, Senators and Rangers) and was bounced off of each.

If you demote Armstrong to the 3rd line (with 3rd-line linemates) and strip him of his powerplay time, it's very possible that he'll end up as a shadow of the player that he has been... a shadow that'll cost $1.5M for the next two seasons. That's the whole problem that Tubby initially posted about: Armstrong isn't quite good enough for the top-6 and, now, he's paid more than he's probably worth as a bottom-6 player.

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03-03-2007, 11:01 PM
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Ziggy Stardust
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The problem the Kings have had is that they didn't have an option better than Armstrong to put in that role. Look at the failed Jeremy Roenick experiment as an example. He was a plugger who could fill in second line duties, even though normally he shouldn't be in that roll. Trust me, I am NOT a big Derek Armstrong fan, but I can see that he is the type of player who does what is asked from his coaches. He was retained because he serves a purpose and he is well-liked by the organization and his teammates. I see no problem seeing him return, especially if he is going to be moved down to the third line.

The Kings could go with three scoring lines, with the third line playing a grinding and aggressive forechecking style, which is what is expected from Derek Armstrong. His job is to feed the puck to his wingers and he's been alright in that position. I have seen far worse players that put in half the effort that Armstrong displays.

His contract isn't going to bind the Kings from making any additions. The contracts of Dan Cloutier and Oleg Tverdovsky on the other hand...

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03-03-2007, 11:49 PM
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Belanger on the 3rd line managed 37, 33 and 35 points.

At half the price of Armstrong.

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03-03-2007, 11:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CBGB View Post
Belanger on the 3rd line managed 37, 33 and 35 points.

At half the price of Armstrong.
Who was twice as unwilling to play the top 6 role that Armstrong is willing to do.

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03-04-2007, 12:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CBGB View Post
Tubby pointed out that DL overpaid Derek Armstrong to be our 2nd line center.
Here's where you're actually incorrect, and though I thought I articulated the point, perhaps I was vague...

Derek Armstrong was not overpaid as a player... he was overpaid because by signing him, you were essentially locking him in as the 2nd line center (unless, of course, you move him to the wing)

I believe Osprey understands the concept, and explained it pretty well within this thread as well.

You want to pay Derek Armstrong 1.5M ... fine. The guy has done everything asked of him in his time with LA, and if this is a reward, so be it... HOWEVER, know that this guy can't play that "stopper" center role, and looking around the NHL, you don't find many (if any) teams paying a fourth line center that kind of money.

DL says he's gonna go out and get a second line center... so let's see how that works once they all arrive in camp and shake it out. Do you have Armstrong taking his 1.5M down to 8 minutes a night on the 4th line? Seems illogical... though, the Cloutier extension... the McCauley contract... holding onto Garon at the deadline, when it seemed a fait accompli that he would not be back next season... all a bit illogical in my book.

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03-04-2007, 12:13 AM
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Ziggy Stardust
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CBGB View Post
Belanger on the 3rd line managed 37, 33 and 35 points.

At half the price of Armstrong.
Belanger was signed to a $1.3M contract during the off-season by Dean Lombardi, prior to the Jack Johnson trade.

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03-04-2007, 02:05 AM
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I think the big thing here is people are locked into the traditional model of a team. They seem to think that we need two scoring lines(1 and 2), a checking line(3), and a an energy line(4). I think that model is outdated, and does not have to used in the new NHL. Look at a team like Buffalo who prefer to role 3 scoring lines with a checking line. Esspecially with Crawford loving the run and gun type of team I can see us going with 3 top lines next year, with a checking line.

Frolov - Armstrong - Cammalleri
Lundmark - Kopitar - Hartnell(Zubrus, Fedotenko, or any 2nd tier winger)
O'Sullivan - Gomez - Brown
Thornton - McCauley - Koustopoulos
Extras: Willsie, Ivanans

I think that this lineup would offer more depth and balance to the Kings roster, amking it impossible for teams to match lines as Crawford will have 3 different scoring lines to throw at teams, while no one line is weak enough to exploit as a true 4th line. Do not have salary numbers, and we do need 1 top 4, and at least one more bottom pairing defenseman as well. So I think that this would only work if DL got rid of Clouts and Tivo by sending them to Manchester.

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03-04-2007, 07:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TubbyTerrion View Post
this guy can't play that "stopper" center role
I disagree.

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03-04-2007, 09:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WpgKings13 View Post

Frolov - Armstrong - Cammalleri
Lundmark - Kopitar - Hartnell(Zubrus, Fedotenko, or any 2nd tier winger)
O'Sullivan - Gomez - Brown
Thornton - McCauley - Koustopoulos
Extras: Willsie, Ivanans
I don't know if there's even a chance that would work out salary cap wise, but I that is the best lineup I could hope for next season. What are the defensive pairings then? Being as you have us signing the two Scotts, I'm thinking that means we can't sign any defensemen (Souray or Stuart).

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03-04-2007, 01:29 PM
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If Armstrong is our "2nd line center" then why the hell is Squid taking the majority of faceoffs on that line? I thought that was Armys job.

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03-04-2007, 01:33 PM
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I think either Armstrong or McCauley or both will be traded in the offseason. Armstrong is a good fit for this years team, a hard working lunch pail guy who is being exposed now that Kopitar is out. The #2 center should be a guy who can play the #1 role if needed, we've all seen how the team looks drastically different now that the 1 forward who can carry the puck is out. With Armstrong's stats and rather cheap price tag I don't think it will be hard to move him and that is the only reason he was signed to an extension-to make it easier to trade him.


Last edited by The Tikkanen: 03-04-2007 at 05:43 PM.
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03-04-2007, 01:39 PM
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If McCauley hasn't been able to recover from his multiple knee surgeries by now, chances are he isn't coming back ever....

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03-04-2007, 01:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kingpest19 View Post
If Armstrong is our "2nd line center" then why the hell is Squid taking the majority of faceoffs on that line? I thought that was Armys job.

your perception is incorrect. In yesterday's game, Armstrong took 18 draws, Cammalleri took 4.

http://www.nhl.com/scores/htmlreport...7/FC020975.HTM

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03-04-2007, 01:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Game Misconduct View Post
I disagree.
Armstrong has two speeds... slow and issue-a-death-certificate. The "stopper" 3rd line center, prototypically, has to have SOME foot speed. You don't want Armstrong checking the opposition's best opponents. He might confuse them with his "speed" in the 1st period, but adjustments will be made pretty quickly, unless it's John VanBoxmeer diagramming the plays

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03-04-2007, 01:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PSP View Post
If McCauley hasn't been able to recover from his multiple knee surgeries by now, chances are he isn't coming back ever....
I think he'll be back, but when he sucks for long stretches, they will be quick to draw from the IHOC playbook and cite his inactivity for X number of seasons.

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