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Old
03-04-2007, 03:21 PM
  #1
TakkoTime
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I've been around forever and don't post much, but

I think (imo) that it's kind of sad that we never would have seen Pouliot show what he's shown without all the bad that's plagued the Oilers this season.
I know you can't have one without the other; but it seems like in quite a few cases we have had players where if the Oilers have said- "Ok. Go and do what you do, and here's some capable players for you to play with," They actually seem to live up to some of the rah-rah draft day potential.
I mean, who here thinks that if Whitney was given some responsibility or Miro Satan or Vyborny etc. that they wouldn't have risen to the occassion? (or at least shown enough to warrant holding on to them longer?) Look at Markkanen last year. Pouliot this year. Mikhnov- I mean as a player / asset you invest all the research, money, time- and then try and force feed a player who may be a round peg into a square hole.
I'm not really sure why I'm saying all this as the MacT/ rookie threads have been beaten to death, but I mean as an organization I think they have to ask themselves seriously- why does NJ put a guy like Parise into situations where they can show themselves over a realistic series of games without fear of either being ridiculed or benched forever? How about players like Ward in Carolina? How about Camelleri in LA? Hemsky was given that opportunity here- but very few others come to mind. Arnott?
One can probably make the argument that when it comes to making the playoffs every team has to ice the best players, blah blah.
It just seems like a lot of other teams have the ability to not only make the playoffs but let players take an active role in being groomed as something other than fourth line pluggers until they can 'show' the Oilers braintrust that they are somehow deserving of more.
I played hockey; I still do. It has to mean something that players of such calibre can make the NHL- and I know even from experience that when a 'good' player was put with me, I generally dragged them down- I was more of a plugger. Now that's ok for a bit- but how can you properly assess a player on his abilities for one: on a small sample size, and two: with players that might be good at what they do but are completely uncomplimentary to the style they play.
This year, if someone had given Pouliot a shot for a few games- maybe it wouldn't have come to this for us to see that maybe he shouldn't have been mentioned as a trade throw in as he was in a few threads earlier this year.
Sure AHL stats mean something, but so do intangibles. Look at Pisani- his AHL stats weren't much but in the NHL he can translate his skill set as he sees fit to become a worthwhile contributor to the club. Is Shremp the same? Nilsson? Mikhnov? Will we ever know?
I think as an organization they should use clubs like Detroit and NJ as a legitimate frame of reference to compare themselves against- and ask themselves how much of the success of players like Zetterberg, Gomez, Parise, Gionta etc. is due to great drafting or how much has it to do with properly utilizing players that you obtain in the roles you originally obtained them for.

Just my two cents.
-Takko

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03-04-2007, 03:28 PM
  #2
Mowzie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TakkoTime View Post
I think (imo) that it's kind of sad that we never would have seen Pouliot show what he's shown without all the bad that's plagued the Oilers this season.
I know you can't have one without the other; but it seems like in quite a few cases we have had players where if the Oilers have said- "Ok. Go and do what you do, and here's some capable players for you to play with," They actually seem to live up to some of the rah-rah draft day potential.
I mean, who here thinks that if Whitney was given some responsibility or Miro Satan or Vyborny etc. that they wouldn't have risen to the occassion? (or at least shown enough to warrant holding on to them longer?) Look at Markkanen last year. Pouliot this year. Mikhnov- I mean as a player / asset you invest all the research, money, time- and then try and force feed a player who may be a round peg into a square hole.
I'm not really sure why I'm saying all this as the MacT/ rookie threads have been beaten to death, but I mean as an organization I think they have to ask themselves seriously- why does NJ put a guy like Parise into situations where they can show themselves over a realistic series of games without fear of either being ridiculed or benched forever? How about players like Ward in Carolina? How about Camelleri in LA? Hemsky was given that opportunity here- but very few others come to mind. Arnott?
One can probably make the argument that when it comes to making the playoffs every team has to ice the best players, blah blah.
It just seems like a lot of other teams have the ability to not only make the playoffs but let players take an active role in being groomed as something other than fourth line pluggers until they can 'show' the Oilers braintrust that they are somehow deserving of more.
I played hockey; I still do. It has to mean something that players of such calibre can make the NHL- and I know even from experience that when a 'good' player was put with me, I generally dragged them down- I was more of a plugger. Now that's ok for a bit- but how can you properly assess a player on his abilities for one: on a small sample size, and two: with players that might be good at what they do but are completely uncomplimentary to the style they play.
This year, if someone had given Pouliot a shot for a few games- maybe it wouldn't have come to this for us to see that maybe he shouldn't have been mentioned as a trade throw in as he was in a few threads earlier this year.
Sure AHL stats mean something, but so do intangibles. Look at Pisani- his AHL stats weren't much but in the NHL he can translate his skill set as he sees fit to become a worthwhile contributor to the club. Is Shremp the same? Nilsson? Mikhnov? Will we ever know?
I think as an organization they should use clubs like Detroit and NJ as a legitimate frame of reference to compare themselves against- and ask themselves how much of the success of players like Zetterberg, Gomez, Parise, Gionta etc. is due to great drafting or how much has it to do with properly utilizing players that you obtain in the roles you originally obtained them for.

Just my two cents.
-Takko
Dead on, I agree with your sentiments. I mentioned a few days ago that the Oil brass has to dig deep and decide which of these kids is in their future, and move the rest of them. We have something like 14 guys under 24 in the organization that are all reaching the same point in their development at the same relative time, and its safe to say that no more than 5 or 6 of them will actually get a legitimate shot.

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Old
03-04-2007, 03:50 PM
  #3
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to much logic

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03-04-2007, 04:02 PM
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I agree 100%

You should post more often because your assessment is bang on.

MacT just doesn't like skilled players. He loves 2 way players. He likes players that play like he used to play. If macT had his way he would have a 12 MacTs playing forward.

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03-04-2007, 05:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Traktor View Post
I agree 100%

You should post more often because your assessment is bang on.

MacT just doesn't like skilled players. He loves 2 way players. He likes players that play like he used to play. If macT had his way he would have a 12 MacTs playing forward.
You know that Pouliot is considered a two-way player?

And that despite the oodles of ice time that MacT given to Lupul, Hemsky, Sykora and Torres - they are not considered two way players?

They're the ones playing the top 6 role ahead of Pouliot.

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03-04-2007, 05:33 PM
  #6
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san jose too - look at bernier, pavelski, clowe, rissmiller, etc.

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Old
03-04-2007, 05:57 PM
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This argument is one that is brought up on Stauffer's show almost daily and is so completely false as to border on ridiculous.

Can someone name me one player in the Mact/Lowe era that was given up on by coaching/management who has gone to better elsewhere. The only plausible argument you could make would be Jason Chimera.

The rest of you examples are from the Sather era.

Mac T has been above average in developing young players. The difference between MAP's first stint and his 2nd stint is night and day. MAP looked like an NHL player from his 1st shift after the call up. It was amazing to behold he was a completely different player than the timid, out of sorts player that started the season.

Instead of griping about some pre-conceived notion that is false why don't you congradulate the Oiler on doing what was obviously the right thing.

As for Mikkonov he was so flatly out of place on his 8 NHL shifts it was embarassing as an organization to admit he was in the lineup. Then "he" quit on the org after 3 months in NA. Good Riddance.

Rookies who contibute and come play every noght will find a spot in this org.

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03-04-2007, 06:24 PM
  #8
TakkoTime
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HotToddy View Post
This argument is one that is brought up on Stauffer's show almost daily and is so completely false as to border on ridiculous.

Can someone name me one player in the Mact/Lowe era that was given up on by coaching/management who has gone to better elsewhere. The only plausible argument you could make would be Jason Chimera.

The rest of you examples are from the Sather era.

Mac T has been above average in developing young players. The difference between MAP's first stint and his 2nd stint is night and day. MAP looked like an NHL player from his 1st shift after the call up. It was amazing to behold he was a completely different player than the timid, out of sorts player that started the season.

Instead of griping about some pre-conceived notion that is false why don't you congradulate the Oiler on doing what was obviously the right thing.

As for Mikkonov he was so flatly out of place on his 8 NHL shifts it was embarassing as an organization to admit he was in the lineup. Then "he" quit on the org after 3 months in NA. Good Riddance.

Rookies who contibute and come play every noght will find a spot in this org.
No, I didn't want this to be a knock MacT thing, I was talking about the organization as a whole, no matter who happens to be 'sailing the ship' as it were.
I meant that we have all of these players now; and the Mikhnov example is exactly what I mean- 8 shifts? It's easy for us to sit here and make cut and dried assessments of how players are doing- not that I want to make excuses for Mikhnov (because I'm not privy to all the information) but the guy comes over, English is not his first language- and he never got a chance to get comfortable at all imo. Wouldn't it be reasonable to expect some transition time? Did he even get 8 shifts?
Now I'm not saying the Oilers should just let everyone play with no pressure at all- but what would you do if you were Mikhnov? I'd probably go home too in his situation. Apparently no one even barely spoke to him about what was expected, what to work on, etc. This has been expanded upon in other threads and on some of the Russian boards. I dunno whether it is true or not.
I'm also not knocking Lowe's regime on what they have accomplished so far, but we are going to see first hand how the Oilers will handle so many players coming up and potentially being ready at the same time.
How will they handle it? Is MacT the right guy to be calling the shots? Apparently he isn't the most helpful coach when it comes to instilling confidence in young players- look at MAB's comments, Mikhnov, Chimera- not saying they are all bang on as they probably weren't too happy when they made them, but is there maybe something there?
My argument can go the other way as well- MAB was publically reamed out for basically not being good enough by MacT in practice- but that's where the question about evaluating players and allowing them to excel where they are potentially most suited comes into play.
Is MAB a 25 minute a night do-it-all defenseman? I think we'd mostly agree that he is a complimentary 10 minute a night offensive PP kind of player. We can harp on all the defensive misgivings he might have had but it seems like he's doing excellent on the island where he's being used as what he's best at- Nolan can see it and exploit it. Why didn't MacT?
Is it MAB's fault that he was expected to basically become something that he isn't?
I don't want to argue about the fact that these guys are paid so much and should be able to do whatever is asked of them and so on.
Sometimes, that just doesn't work.
I'm not a big MAB fan, but the guy did what could be reasonably expected of him- now he's doing it for someone else.
Sure Lowe has been pretty good so far and I hope he keeps it up. We are going to see very soon how this plays out, and I hope they play it right. I think my concerns are valid, I think they are even more valid when you look at the prospects coming up and just how many we have that will potentially be knocking at the door all at the same time.

(And I don't get Stauffer way up north where I live)

-Takko

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Old
03-04-2007, 06:59 PM
  #9
HotToddy
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Mihknov was being given a transition period, in the AHL, the perfect place to learn the pro game. He quit, end of story. It has nothing to do with the organization giving him a chance unless you want the Oilers to be some piss poor club that gives player icetime based on draft status and pedigree. If Mikhnov had been some 5th round pick we brought over for a look see no one would even remeber his nameright now.

As for MAB, you hi the nail right on the head, Pretty good 10 minute a night guy with PP ability. The Oiler realized after some 190+ games with MAB that his ability is pretty limited and unless you have serious D talent on the club Bergeron will more liability than asset. MAB was more a vicitim of the Oilers talent level on the backend.

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Old
03-04-2007, 07:54 PM
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TakkoTime
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Exactly,

Quote:
Originally Posted by HotToddy View Post
Mihknov was being given a transition period, in the AHL, the perfect place to learn the pro game. He quit, end of story. It has nothing to do with the organization giving him a chance unless you want the Oilers to be some piss poor club that gives player icetime based on draft status and pedigree. If Mikhnov had been some 5th round pick we brought over for a look see no one would even remeber his nameright now.

As for MAB, you hi the nail right on the head, Pretty good 10 minute a night guy with PP ability. The Oiler realized after some 190+ games with MAB that his ability is pretty limited and unless you have serious D talent on the club Bergeron will more liability than asset. MAB was more a vicitim of the Oilers talent level on the backend.

Exactly- "end of story." But what I'm asking is why? What is Mikhnov's 'pedigree' per se? I think it was Prendergast who made the comment that he would be expected to step in to the top six- then who did mikhnov play with? WHY did he quit? He must have wanted to be here in the first place; and I think it's safe to assume that that's a pretty big decision to make (coming over to NA, etc.) and then he felt that (according to him) he could benefit more by playing back in Russia, so he quit.
The reason I even mentioned him is that on some other Russian hockey boards (maybe 'Slitty' can elaborate further) Mikhnov was quite outspoken about the fact that he felt 'lost' in Edm; and that no one helped him figure out just what they expected from him or what he had to do / work on to come back. That to me is irresponsible asset management.
Add that to comments from other players who have left here and it begs the discussion- how will the Oilers deal with the influx of young talent coming through the ranks?
I thought Syvret looked pretty good in his last two games- and is worth a longer look. He seems calm, composed and can actually make a breakout pass- but did we really see him at all this year until we had no choice?
I'm not knocking the Oilers per se, I think Lowe has done way better in many aspects of the Oilers day to day operations then his predecessor had done. (Thumbs up on the Smitty trade) I just wanted to have some healthy discussion about the future. We, after all, are the ones who pay the bills.

-Takko

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Old
03-04-2007, 08:04 PM
  #11
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Pouliot came up the first time and played very well defensively but really didn't take a lot of chances offensively. He didn't look ready to take that step.

The Oilers sent him down and now he and they have a better assessment on what he has to work on to have success at this level. He also can see the speed of the NHL game and gets his feet wet.

He goes down works on those things, gets more confident and comes up and looks and plays better.

It's called player development and it doesn't just happen at the NHL level.

The NHL is the toughest league in the NHL, not every player is ready or looks like a world beater the first time they step in the NHL. Pouliot needed more time at the AHL level and now is having success, sending him down to the AHL was the right decision and it is now paying dividends.

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03-04-2007, 08:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyaddict101 View Post
Pouliot came up the first time and played very well defensively but really didn't take a lot of chances offensively. He didn't look ready to take that step.

The Oilers sent him down and now he and they have a better assessment on what he has to work on to have success at this level. He also can see the speed of the NHL game and gets his feet wet.

He goes down works on those things, gets more confident and comes up and looks and plays better.

It's called player development and it doesn't just happen at the NHL level.

The NHL is the toughest league in the NHL, not every player is ready or looks like a world beater the first time they step in the NHL. Pouliot needed more time at the AHL level and now is having success, sending him down to the AHL was the right decision and it is now paying dividends.
I'd hope so .

That said, I agree. Playing in the AHL as a 20 or 21 year old isn't the end of the world.

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03-04-2007, 08:21 PM
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TakkoTime View Post
Is MAB a 25 minute a night do-it-all defenseman? I think we'd mostly agree that he is a complimentary 10 minute a night offensive PP kind of player. We can harp on all the defensive misgivings he might have had but it seems like he's doing excellent on the island where he's being used as what he's best at- Nolan can see it and exploit it. Why didn't MacT?
Is it MAB's fault that he was expected to basically become something that he isn't?
Wait a minute, your argument doesn't mesh with the facts on this one. Nolan is giving MAB considerably more ice time than MacT did. And the ice time isn't coming on the PP, it's all coming 5 on 5...his PP time average has actually dropped since going to the Island.

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03-04-2007, 08:31 PM
  #14
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yeah

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Originally Posted by oilersrule14 View Post
Wait a minute, your argument doesn't mesh with the facts on this one. Nolan is giving MAB considerably more ice time than MacT did. And the ice time isn't coming on the PP, it's all coming 5 on 5...his PP time average has actually dropped since going to the Island.

You're probably right, but I don't want to argue semantics or the fact that the NHL is the toughest league in the world; we all know that. I just wondered primarily about the Oiler's ability to utilize players where they are best suited, like a whole lot of other teams seem to do a lot better than us. Good call on Bergy; I don't really know what he's up to there except that he's putting up points and is apparently happy. Doing what he's best at (and probably not playing 20 mins a game)

-Takko

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03-04-2007, 09:30 PM
  #15
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Originally Posted by TakkoTime View Post
Exactly- "end of story." But what I'm asking is why? What is Mikhnov's 'pedigree' per se? I think it was Prendergast who made the comment that he would be expected to step in to the top six- then who did mikhnov play with? WHY did he quit? He must have wanted to be here in the first place; and I think it's safe to assume that that's a pretty big decision to make (coming over to NA, etc.) and then he felt that (according to him) he could benefit more by playing back in Russia, so he quit.
The reason I even mentioned him is that on some other Russian hockey boards (maybe 'Slitty' can elaborate further) Mikhnov was quite outspoken about the fact that he felt 'lost' in Edm; and that no one helped him figure out just what they expected from him or what he had to do / work on to come back. That to me is irresponsible asset management.
Add that to comments from other players who have left here and it begs the discussion- how will the Oilers deal with the influx of young talent coming through the ranks?
I thought Syvret looked pretty good in his last two games- and is worth a longer look. He seems calm, composed and can actually make a breakout pass- but did we really see him at all this year until we had no choice?
I'm not knocking the Oilers per se, I think Lowe has done way better in many aspects of the Oilers day to day operations then his predecessor had done. (Thumbs up on the Smitty trade) I just wanted to have some healthy discussion about the future. We, after all, are the ones who pay the bills.

-Takko
Please take no offense but it would be easier to read a long post if you place a blank line between each paragraph, otherwise good posts.

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Old
03-04-2007, 09:37 PM
  #16
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Originally Posted by hockeyaddict101 View Post
Pouliot came up the first time and played very well defensively but really didn't take a lot of chances offensively. He didn't look ready to take that step.
The problem that I have with this statement is that they in turn also kept Petersen who will never ammount to anything more than what he is now, and played the hell out of him. That is my issue with the coaching on this team.

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03-04-2007, 09:38 PM
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TakkoTime
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Ha Ha

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrolean View Post
Please take no offense but it would be easier to read a long post if you place a blank line between each paragraph, otherwise good posts.
Yeah, I never really looked at my own posts. Like I said I don't post often.

Your advice is duly noted. (Thanks)

-Takko

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