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Old
03-06-2007, 09:23 PM
  #101
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Brown needs to keep his head up - especially in the locker room

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03-06-2007, 09:53 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by TubbyTerrion View Post
I pray you were referencing someone/anyone but me on that one Not only was it not me, but I haven't been to a draft party... I have been to a draft, though.
That was for Dancing CBGB.

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03-06-2007, 10:25 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post
That was for Dancing CBGB.
Dancing Anson was a decent player whom we could have used at the BEGINNING of the season and not when he was acquired with a hernia.

BTW, I guess we gave up a future prospect that went on to fame and fortune... Jared Aulin.

Yet ANOTHER Dave Taylor bomb.

Who said ANYTHING about trading a #1 for Carter? Yes, I wanted AC, but not at for a 1st.

And by the way, what did our first round picks get when we were cheering for Anson?

Let me refresh YOUR memory.

Brian Boyle

Jeff Tambellini.

What have they done for the Kings and what was JT used to acquire? a 2nd round pick and a 4th round pick. (Sopel)

Anson COULD have been the difference had we had him the entire year but that's hypothetical.

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03-06-2007, 10:29 PM
  #104
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I doubt Anson Carter would have been a difference maker even if he started with the Kings. Those first round picks have more value than Anson Carter, it was the organization's own fault that they "wasted" Tambellini for a rental that didn't work out.

The verdict is still out on Boyle. They could have selected a better prospect with those picks, hell they could have landed a better prospect than Pushkarev with that 2nd round pick, but you know what they say about hindsight...

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03-06-2007, 10:31 PM
  #105
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Anson Carter is a darker version of Brian Willsie at this stage of his career.

Forget ragging on Brown, we need to get on O'Sullivan. Dude is pathetic.

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03-06-2007, 10:45 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Playa Hamm View Post
Forget ragging on Brown, we need to get on O'Sullivan. Dude is pathetic.
From the standpoint of Jim Fox blabbing too much, he should shut the f*(* up.

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03-06-2007, 10:52 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by KingFan24 View Post
From the standpoint of Jim Fox blabbing too much, he should shut the f*(* up.

Jim Fox needs to be taken into a dark room and beaten with a baseball bat. They should have Bob Miller be like Vin Scully & have no color guy.

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03-06-2007, 10:57 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Playa Hamm View Post
Jim Fox needs to be taken into a dark room and beaten with a baseball bat. They should have Bob Miller be like Vin Scully & have no color guy.
Jeez that's a bit harsh. Did Jim Fox run over your dog, get your wife pregnant and left a dookie on your front doorstep?

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03-06-2007, 10:59 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post
Jeez that's a bit harsh. Did Jim Fox run over your dog, get your wife pregnant and left a dookie on your front doorstep?

I'd be okay if he did any of those things. But his commentating makes me unbelievably irritated.

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03-06-2007, 11:03 PM
  #110
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I like Jim Fox. He adds another element to the broadcast and he is WAY better than some other color guys like John Ahlers. He adds humor and he actually does a good, unbiased job of analyzing plays.

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03-06-2007, 11:05 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by LeftKinger View Post
I like Jim Fox. He adds another element to the broadcast and he is WAY better than some other color guys like John Ahlers. He adds humor and he actually does a good, unbiased job of analyzing plays.


AHLers is a PBP guy.

Jim Fox is unbiased, but that's about all he brings.

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03-07-2007, 01:10 AM
  #112
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Fully agree with this, and in my long winded post I tried to convey that. I feel that although the production has not improved, his game overall has improved and hopefully continues on the upward trend. He will be given his chance again next year in a scoring role as we probably wont compete again. Hopefully the improvement continues and begins to show on the scoresheet. IMO, it is not the talent but the consistancy that will be Brown's biggest obstacle.
This is were I completely disagree with a lot of pro-Brown posters. His overall game has not improved much - he is still making rookie mistakes, though I will conceed that he has had several shifts over the past week where he has out-battled the opposition. I sincerely hope that he finds some sort of consistentcy.

For the most part he has difficulty being effective at the moment of impact, be it taking a shot, giving/receiving a pass, or deciding if he should or shouldn't pressure on the forecheck. It takes time for young players to learn the intricacies of the game, but a former first round pick should be at least equal to, if not ahead of that curve.

There was one shift tonight, in the second period, where I think Brown had his most effective forecheck ever, and he never even touched anybody. He used his strong skating ability to hem in three different Hawks, which lead to a long, errant pass. 99% of the time he rushes in like a mad bull, but takes a poor angle which leads to a clean breakout. Sure, he might hit the guy, but it is well after the point of impact - the pass had already been made. It's these areas of the game that Brown needs to continue to improve upon - the scoring doesn't look like it will be much of an option for him.

If you want to view Brown as a quality third liner, so be it, but pay closer attention to detail and you will see that for all the big hits and swift skating, he really doesn't do anything well enough to justify any kind of defined role.

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03-07-2007, 04:27 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by bland View Post
This is were I completely disagree with a lot of pro-Brown posters. His overall game has not improved much - he is still making rookie mistakes, though I will conceed that he has had several shifts over the past week where he has out-battled the opposition. I sincerely hope that he finds some sort of consistentcy.

For the most part he has difficulty being effective at the moment of impact, be it taking a shot, giving/receiving a pass, or deciding if he should or shouldn't pressure on the forecheck. It takes time for young players to learn the intricacies of the game, but a former first round pick should be at least equal to, if not ahead of that curve.

There was one shift tonight, in the second period, where I think Brown had his most effective forecheck ever, and he never even touched anybody. He used his strong skating ability to hem in three different Hawks, which lead to a long, errant pass. 99% of the time he rushes in like a mad bull, but takes a poor angle which leads to a clean breakout. Sure, he might hit the guy, but it is well after the point of impact - the pass had already been made. It's these areas of the game that Brown needs to continue to improve upon - the scoring doesn't look like it will be much of an option for him.

If you want to view Brown as a quality third liner, so be it, but pay closer attention to detail and you will see that for all the big hits and swift skating, he really doesn't do anything well enough to justify any kind of defined role.
By my count there are 18 players out of the 292 picked in the exceptionally good 03 draft that have established them as NHL regulars, one of which is Brown. He is certainly ahead of the pack. And since i do not feel like repeating myself, go back to my other post at the start of the 4th page to see my views on Brown. And think to yourself, when was the last time he made a very, very stupid mistake that cost us a goal? I personally cannot remember one in the 2nd half of the year, not like the first half anyways.

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03-07-2007, 05:03 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by WpgKings13 View Post
By my count there are 18 players out of the 292 picked in the exceptionally good 03 draft that have established them as NHL regulars, one of which is Brown. He is certainly ahead of the pack.
Ahead of what pack? I hope you don't mean the rest of the 1st round draft picks that year.

Dustin Brown has 26 goals in 175 NHL games - .149 goals/game

Staal has 82 goals in 231 games - or .355 goals/game

Horton has 66 in 193 - or .342 g/g

Vanek has 59 in 146 - or .404 g/g

Even Phaneuf has 36 in 147 - or .245 g/g

Bernier? 26 in 86 - or .302 g/g

Getzlaf? 35 in 124 - or .282 g/g

Perry? 27 in 123 - or .220 g/g

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03-07-2007, 05:10 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by PSP View Post
Ahead of what pack? I hope you don't mean the rest of the 1st round draft picks that year.

Dustin Brown has 26 goals in 175 NHL games - .149 goals/game

Staal has 82 goals in 231 games - or .355 goals/game

Horton has 66 in 193 - or .342 g/g

Vanek has 59 in 146 - or .404 g/g

Even Phaneuf has 36 in 147 - or .245 g/g

Bernier? 26 in 86 - or .302 g/g

Getzlaf? 35 in 124 - or .282 g/g

Perry? 27 in 123 - or .220 g/g


additionally... when you remove the 7 defenseman and 1 goaltender selected in the first round, Dustin Brown was choesn as the 9th forward overall.

of the 22 forwards taken in the 1st round (3 by Los Angeles), i wonder where he (or anyone) would rank Dustin... around where Ryan Kesler is maybe?

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03-07-2007, 07:37 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by PSP View Post
Ahead of what pack? I hope you don't mean the rest of the 1st round draft picks that year.

Dustin Brown has 26 goals in 175 NHL games - .149 goals/game

Staal has 82 goals in 231 games - or .355 goals/game

Horton has 66 in 193 - or .342 g/g

Vanek has 59 in 146 - or .404 g/g

Even Phaneuf has 36 in 147 - or .245 g/g

Bernier? 26 in 86 - or .302 g/g

Getzlaf? 35 in 124 - or .282 g/g

Perry? 27 in 123 - or .220 g/g
First off, 2003 was a ridiculously deep draft, and it is not really a fair comparaison for Brown, but since he was drafted in that draft lets just stick with. I said ahead of the pack in terms of being an NHL regular among the WHOLE draft. bland said that Brown should be ahead of the curve as a first round pick. And every one of the players you named are also a first round pick, it does not affect my assertion that Brown is ahead of curve.

Additionally, we have
Coburn - 42gp, 1g(I know he a defensive defenseman and goals mean nothing but he has failed to stick in the NHL to this point.)
Kostityn - 21gp, 2g
Jessiman - 0gp
Nilsson - 53gp, 6g
Fehr - 25gp, 2g
Stuart - 28gp, 1g(Again has failed to stick)
Pouliot - 38gp, 5g
Stewart - 20gp, 2g
Boyle - 0gp
Tambellini - 38gp, 3g
Belle - 9gp, 0g

So yes he has not lived up to potential when compared to some guys, but is lightyears ahead of some others in the first round, but is ahead of the curve when compared to draft overall.

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03-07-2007, 07:39 PM
  #117
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additionally... when you remove the 7 defenseman and 1 goaltender selected in the first round, Dustin Brown was choesn as the 9th forward overall.

of the 22 forwards taken in the 1st round (3 by Los Angeles), i wonder where he (or anyone) would rank Dustin... around where Ryan Kesler is maybe?
Around Kesler but definatly above him, but Kesler would go much higher than what he went. I'll do my personal 03 redraft if you want.

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03-07-2007, 10:46 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by WpgKings13 View Post
By my count there are 18 players out of the 292 picked in the exceptionally good 03 draft that have established them as NHL regulars, one of which is Brown. He is certainly ahead of the pack. And since i do not feel like repeating myself, go back to my other post at the start of the 4th page to see my views on Brown. And think to yourself, when was the last time he made a very, very stupid mistake that cost us a goal? I personally cannot remember one in the 2nd half of the year, not like the first half anyways.
Now you are just making this too easy. The Jackets 2nd goal of the game was because Brown blew the point coverage. He stupidly dropped far too deep in the zone, just a few feet from the crease, and his man at the point was able to get off a clean shot. Brown left the crease just as the shot was taken, where the defenseman probably thought he would remain, and got caught in between while a rebound was easily tucked in by the man Brown was supposedly covering. He BUTCHERED that play. Go back and see for your self - there is no way to sugar coat that glaring misread.

How 'bout the Niedermayer goal against the Ducks? Brown was on the PK and allowed Niedermayer (his pointman) to glide into the crease and get body position on him. Pronger had all the time in the world to cork up a low shot, and Brown was caught waving his **** in the wind on the outside of both players. That was a clear mistake that directly lead to a goal.

I may sound like I enjoy harping on Dustin, but I really hate having to point this crap out time and time again to combat this fan-boy mentality some take about him. It makes me seem like an a-hole. It would be so much easier to have rational discussions if people would truly analyze a player and their relation to the important aspects of the game. If you pay close attention, you will undoubtedly see that Brown is just lousy at the non-sexy, but critical facets. For some reason folks tend to give players like Brown, and to a lesser degree Tim Gleason last year, more of a break. I can only think that it because they make big noises out on the ice.

He is a young player that will make mistakes - that is supposed to happen. However, he is progressing far too slowly for someone taken in the first round of such a deep draft. For the record, I would probably be *****ing about Kostitsyn (and especially Jessiman) as well.

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03-07-2007, 10:48 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by WpgKings13 View Post
Around Kesler but definatly above him, but Kesler would go much higher than what he went. I'll do my personal 03 redraft if you want.
Kesler is already a far more complete player than Brown. If Dustin can harness his offensive potential he'd be the better of the two. The way it looks right now, it's Kesler hands down.

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03-07-2007, 11:17 PM
  #120
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First off, 2003 was a ridiculously deep draft, and it is not really a fair comparaison for Brown, but since he was drafted in that draft lets just stick with. I said ahead of the pack in terms of being an NHL regular among the WHOLE draft. bland said that Brown should be ahead of the curve as a first round pick. And every one of the players you named are also a first round pick, it does not affect my assertion that Brown is ahead of curve.

Additionally, we have
Coburn - 42gp, 1g(I know he a defensive defenseman and goals mean nothing but he has failed to stick in the NHL to this point.)
Kostityn - 21gp, 2g
Jessiman - 0gp
Nilsson - 53gp, 6g
Fehr - 25gp, 2g
Stuart - 28gp, 1g(Again has failed to stick)
Pouliot - 38gp, 5g
Stewart - 20gp, 2g
Boyle - 0gp
Tambellini - 38gp, 3g
Belle - 9gp, 0g

So yes he has not lived up to potential when compared to some guys, but is lightyears ahead of some others in the first round, but is ahead of the curve when compared to draft overall.
He's ahead of the curve when compared to the general population too - it's not much of a stretch to say that virtually EVERY first round pick is ahead of the curve compared to the draft overall.

The real test should be how his performance compares to players selected close to him - in that case, he hasn't lived up to potential.

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03-07-2007, 11:45 PM
  #121
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Originally Posted by WpgKings13 View Post
First off, 2003 was a ridiculously deep draft, and it is not really a fair comparaison for Brown, but since he was drafted in that draft lets just stick with. I said ahead of the pack in terms of being an NHL regular among the WHOLE draft. bland said that Brown should be ahead of the curve as a first round pick. And every one of the players you named are also a first round pick, it does not affect my assertion that Brown is ahead of curve.

Additionally, we have
Coburn - 42gp, 1g(I know he a defensive defenseman and goals mean nothing but he has failed to stick in the NHL to this point.)
Kostityn - 21gp, 2g
Jessiman - 0gp
Nilsson - 53gp, 6g
Fehr - 25gp, 2g
Stuart - 28gp, 1g(Again has failed to stick)
Pouliot - 38gp, 5g
Stewart - 20gp, 2g
Boyle - 0gp
Tambellini - 38gp, 3g
Belle - 9gp, 0g

So yes he has not lived up to potential when compared to some guys, but is lightyears ahead of some others in the first round, but is ahead of the curve when compared to draft overall.
After reviewing the full 2003 draft on hockeydb.com, there are 23 players that I would rate above Dustin Brown in terms of accomplishment, and about 6-7 in the same boat as Brown. Plus, I can only assume that Fehr, Nilsson and Kostitsyn would have similar (or perhaps better) numbers had they been immediately inserted into the line-up like Brown.

If you honestly re-do the 2003 draft, Brown would be a fringe first rounder, with Boyle and Tambellini nowhere in sight of the first round.

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03-07-2007, 11:48 PM
  #122
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Now you are just making this too easy. The Jackets 2nd goal of the game was because Brown blew the point coverage. He stupidly dropped far too deep in the zone, just a few feet from the crease, and his man at the point was able to get off a clean shot. Brown left the crease just as the shot was taken, where the defenseman probably thought he would remain, and got caught in between while a rebound was easily tucked in by the man Brown was supposedly covering. He BUTCHERED that play. Go back and see for your self - there is no way to sugar coat that glaring misread.

How 'bout the Niedermayer goal against the Ducks? Brown was on the PK and allowed Niedermayer (his pointman) to glide into the crease and get body position on him. Pronger had all the time in the world to cork up a low shot, and Brown was caught waving his **** in the wind on the outside of both players. That was a clear mistake that directly lead to a goal.

I may sound like I enjoy harping on Dustin, but I really hate having to point this crap out time and time again to combat this fan-boy mentality some take about him. It makes me seem like an a-hole. It would be so much easier to have rational discussions if people would truly analyze a player and their relation to the important aspects of the game. If you pay close attention, you will undoubtedly see that Brown is just lousy at the non-sexy, but critical facets. For some reason folks tend to give players like Brown, and to a lesser degree Tim Gleason last year, more of a break. I can only think that it because they make big noises out on the ice.

He is a young player that will make mistakes - that is supposed to happen. However, he is progressing far too slowly for someone taken in the first round of such a deep draft. For the record, I would probably be *****ing about Kostitsyn (and especially Jessiman) as well.
You owned that post.

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03-07-2007, 11:51 PM
  #123
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Now you are just making this too easy. The Jackets 2nd goal of the game was because Brown blew the point coverage. He stupidly dropped far too deep in the zone, just a few feet from the crease, and his man at the point was able to get off a clean shot. Brown left the crease just as the shot was taken, where the defenseman probably thought he would remain, and got caught in between while a rebound was easily tucked in by the man Brown was supposedly covering. He BUTCHERED that play. Go back and see for your self - there is no way to sugar coat that glaring misread.
Brown's man was the guy down by the goal line, which is where he was. It was Clarke that left the guy wide open for the shot. That was Clarke's defenseman. Clarke was stupidly challenging Nash when Lundmark already had him.

You could maybe argue that Brown should have just stayed with the guy down low, but give me a break. If you saw a guy get the puck wide open at the point, I don't think you could be faulted for trying to come out to block the shot, which is exactly what Brown was doing.

And how about Miller and Weaver? Both defensemen knock Platt into Garon and leave Vborny wide open in the slot. And what the heck was Lundmark doing skating right past the man, the goaline, and the puck, covering NOONE after the initial shot? But you're picking on Brown?

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Originally Posted by bland
How 'bout the Niedermayer goal against the Ducks?
How about it?

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Originally Posted by bland
Brown was on the PK
Ok, so the Kings were shorthanded, that's the first problem.

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Originally Posted by bland
and allowed Niedermayer (his pointman) to glide into the crease and get body position on him.
You don't have "a man" when you play the box. You have an area of the ice.

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Originally Posted by bland
Pronger had all the time in the world to cork up a low shot, and Brown was caught waving his **** in the wind on the outside of both players. That was a clear mistake that directly lead to a goal.
He can't cover both guys simultaneously, and it looks to me like he is stepping out of the way to let burke see the shot. And what the heck is Lundmark doing (AGAIN) besides covering Kunitz WHO IS ALREADY COVERED BY MODRY?

Once again he found himself covering someone and then another player from the other team was WIDE OPEN due to someone else's mistake. In hindsight maybe he should have tackled Neidermeyer? You can say he should have tied up his stick and maybe he should have, but it's debatable that getting tangled up and creating a double screen in the middle of the slot would have been a much better option than what he did. Even if he did, and Pronger scored without the deflection, you'd just be saying "What was Brown doing stupidly creating a double screen in the slot?"

Quote:
Originally Posted by bland
I may sound like I enjoy harping on Dustin, but I really hate having to point this crap out time and time again to combat this fan-boy mentality some take about him. It makes me seem like an a-hole. It would be so much easier to have rational discussions if people would truly analyze a player and their relation to the important aspects of the game. If you pay close attention, you will undoubtedly see that Brown is just lousy at the non-sexy, but critical facets. For some reason folks tend to give players like Brown, and to a lesser degree Tim Gleason last year, more of a break. I can only think that it because they make big noises out on the ice.
You DO enjoy harping on him. He is your whipping boy and you over analyze everything he does under a microscope. Why don't you just admit it?

If you paid the same kind of attention to, say, Frolov and looked at his flaws the way you do Brown's, you'd be posting up a storm about how stupid he was about making a risky play at the defensive blueline against the 'Hawks, not getting the puck out, and the 'Hawks scoring 5 seconds later. You won't do that though, because his name isn't Brown.

You can ignore what I'm saying once again, but deep down somewhere I know you can see this, even if you won't admit it.

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03-08-2007, 12:10 AM
  #124
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Bandit, check out that play again - Brown was cleary playing the right side of the ice with Clarke on the left wing. Brown dipped down far too deep on the right side, which allowed an easy pass to the left defenseman, Brown's man, for a wide open shot. Brown even realized this, but too late. He was caught in between because he made a bad read. It happens. I wouldn't have mentioned the damn thing, except I was challenged.

The Niedermayer goal was another horrible read. Of course I know you don't play man-to-man on the PK. However, Brown allowed the left point man, which again was his responsibility, to move to the center of the ice. Brown mistakenly chose to engage him instead of trying to stay in a passing lane, which is his responsibility in the Kings' PK system. He was out-muscled by Niedermayer and found himself outside of both Pronger's shooting lane AND couldn't get to Niedermayer's stick. It was a poor play and can't be rationalized away.

By the way, if you want to start a discussion about the shortcomings of another player, I'll post my opinions as well. Every player makes mistakes. I choose to point out Brown's because, frankly, he deserves the harshest criticism because he has the highest expectations.

My allegience is to the team and not specific players. Do I have favorites? Of course, but it won't prevent me from being honest. The deepest and most important draft for the Kings in recent memory has been an utter disaster. Take a look at our first four selections: Brown, Boyle, Tambellini and Pushkarev. Not one of them is having an impact three full seasons later. Not one. If I criticize Brown too heavily, it is because he is the poster boy for our glaring draft error. That draft is my "whipping boy".

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03-08-2007, 12:42 AM
  #125
Holden Caulfield
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The Eternal Skeptic
 
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Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Winnipeg
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PSP View Post
He's ahead of the curve when compared to the general population too - it's not much of a stretch to say that virtually EVERY first round pick is ahead of the curve compared to the draft overall.

The real test should be how his performance compares to players selected close to him - in that case, he hasn't lived up to potential.
How close around him? Cause if you look at it:
10 - MTL - Kotitsyn - 21gp, 2g
11 - PHI - Carter - 127gp, 33g
12 - NYR - Jessiman - 0gp, 0g
13 - LAK - Brown - 175gp,26g
14 - CHI - Seabrook - 135gp, 9g
15 - NYI - Nilsson - 53gp,6g

Not much to choose from there. Yes I've agreed that he has not lived up to potential. I was only saying that he was ahead of the draft, as someone had pointed out that Brown was not ahead of pack, at least that is the way it came off to me. O, and I did just the redraft quickly and put Brown at about 20-24.

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