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jagr worship ... or what happened to him?

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Old
03-02-2007, 03:50 AM
  #1
rozsival rox
 
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jagr worship ... or what happened to him?

I'll admit to being a huge jagr fan who doesn't understand the detractors. but even a huge jags fan can see he's not the same this season:

last season: G 54 A 69 Pts 123
this season (projected): G 30 A 69 Pts 99 -- and these are stats with undoubtedly better versions of nylander and straka for most of the season.

exhibit b: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgQKj7knG_E

I remember watching jagr last season. he was a force of nature. am I right? he scored basically at will. defenders had basically NO CLUE how to contain him. what happened to that version of jagr? I want theories, people. here are some possible explanations (from the most obvious):

a. "destroyed" shoulder
b. renney
c. the weight of the C
d. having to share the spotlight with a shanahan. notice most recent games. jagr is better. jagr thrives in the spotlight and when he's "the guy." like at this moment in the season and like last year.
e. age. is he on a downward spiral? will he ever be as good again?
f. weight. yes, I said it. notice the clip. jagr is easily 10-15 lbs heavier. he was impossible to knock off the puck last season. this season? not so impossible ... he seems to have gained speed but I've seen him flattened in ways that never happened in 05-06. no one ever talks about this.
g. confidence/determination/will to win.

what are your thoughts?

and for bonus points ... how has jagr changed from the jagr of old? classic jagr:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDX0p...elated&search=


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Old
03-02-2007, 10:40 AM
  #2
WhipNash27
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Give him this summer to restrengthen his shoulder and get back into shape and we'll see how he is next season.

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03-02-2007, 10:46 AM
  #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tyuts View Post
I'll admit to being a huge jagr fan who doesn't understand the detractors. but even a huge jags fan can see he's not the same this season:

last season: G 54 A 69 Pts 123
this season (projected): G 30 A 69 Pts 99 -- and these are stats with undoubtedly better versions of nylander and straka for most of the season.

exhibit b: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgQKj7knG_E

I remember watching jagr last season. he was a force of nature. am I right? he scored basically at will. defenders had basically NO CLUE how to contain him. what happened to that version of jagr? I want theories, people. here are some possible explanations (from the most obvious):

a. "destroyed" shoulder
b. renney
c. the weight of the C
d. having to share the spotlight with a shanahan. notice most recent games. jagr is better. jagr thrives in the spotlight and when he's "the guy." like at this moment in the season and like last year.
e. age. is he on a downward spiral? will he ever be as good again?
f. weight. yes, I said it. notice the clip. jagr is easily 10-15 lbs heavier. he was impossible to knock off the puck last season. this season? not so impossible ... he seems to have gained speed but I've seen him flattened in ways that never happened in 05-06. no one ever talks about this.
g. confidence/determination/will to win.

what are your thoughts?

and for bonus points ... how has jagr changed from the jagr of old? classic jagr:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDX0p...elated&search=

I think 'a' led to 'g' personally. I think he didnt feel like he could play like he is capapble of due to the shoulder. It could very well be other reasons, but thats my take on it.

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03-02-2007, 10:53 AM
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I attribute most of the dropoff to the shoulder. I know everyone likes to point to Jagr's mentality, and I admit that part of his problems are definitely in his head, but I think it can all be traced back to the shoulder.

We've heard him say time and again this season that he wasn't able to rehab it fully in the offseason, and as a result he doesn't feel like himself. I think that his lack of strength in it has affected his play and his attitude. He obviously is a guy who needs to be fully confident in order to play up to his potential (who doesn't?) and I think that the shoulder has hampered that confidence.

So while these are somewhat arbitrary figures, I'd say Jagr's problems are 70% physical and 30% mental, though the mental side is greatly affected by the physical side. Granted, in a perfect world this wouldn't be the case, but we all know that Jagr is not a perfect superstar. Some of the fans' problems come when they expect him to be bulletproof, and when he shows weakness then they come down hard on him.

My advice is to accept his shortcomings and be grateful that even when he's not 100% physically or mentally, he is still among the best players in the game.

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03-02-2007, 10:53 AM
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You know, Jagr may not be 100%, but he's still having a good season. I think the fact that within 5 points of him are
9. Daniel Briere - 77 (tied)
8. Marion Hossa - 80
7. Alexander Ovechkin - 80
6. Joe Thornton - 81
5. Dany Heatley - 82

I don't think any fans of those teams are complaining that those players are having 80 or so point seasons at this point. Yeah, sure we know Jagr can do better, but the guy has played 64 games thus far with a blown shoulder. Even though he's not scoring he's still putting up assists. He even said last year that he views himself more as a playmaker than a scorer. Cut him some slack.

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03-02-2007, 11:47 AM
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I think it's age. It it also the reason I advocated trading him.Each year he will bring back less assets. Jagr should have been traded to a contender

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03-02-2007, 11:53 AM
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Jagr was awesome last night. Against any other goalie (except maybe Brodeur), he would have had 3 or 4 points.

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03-02-2007, 12:00 PM
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I think his shoulder is still spooking him a little bit. Hockey is a sport with small margins. He hasn't had the quality in his shot release that he had last year. I think he will be a better self next season.

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03-02-2007, 12:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bathgate View Post
I think it's age. It it also the reason I advocated trading him.Each year he will bring back less assets. Jagr should have been traded to a contender
I disagree Bathgate, I don't think its age at all. I think its all about the shoulder, and his psyche. He doesn't feel as strong as he wants to feel, and its messing with him mentally. That said, he's still on pace for an outstanding season, and I fully expect the Jagr of last season next season, or at least close to it. Especially now that this team has found a little more balanced scoring.

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03-02-2007, 12:09 PM
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I think it's two things.

A. The shoulder

B. The fact teams know that if they stop Jagr's line, they stop the Rangers. For much of this season the only scoring depth beyond Jagr and his linemates was Shanahan, and unlike the first half of last year everyone knew Jagr was back.

The other thing to consider is, as Bathgate mentioned, age. I know the the optimistic attitude is to believe Jagr can perform like this into his 40's because he is so talented, so strong, etc. but the reality is that hockey is a rough sport and sometimes the wear and tear does diminish even the greatest of talents.

Now I'm not saying that is the case here, but we have to mindful that we have a 35 year old player who is taking a lot of punishment and has taken a lot of punishment over the years (and has had some injury concerns). It's the risk we have with all of our big 4: Jagr, Shanny, Nylander, Straka. Each of those guys have a lot of miles under the hood and sometimes almost like a lightswitch the decline can begin.

Again that's not necessarily what is happening here, but we have to be aware that it's not a far fetched idea either.

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03-02-2007, 12:18 PM
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Thank you Edge...

and my employer thanks you for allowing me to not type a long post...

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Old
03-02-2007, 01:14 PM
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GUYMAN
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Jagr

I don't claim to know what's wrong with him. But this much I do know - we are not winning anything with him next year, or probably ever at his age now. So I'm quite ready to deal him. I don't know if it's feasible from the monetary side - and I'm not saying just give him away for anyone either. But why would you not at least consider it?

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03-02-2007, 01:35 PM
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I don't claim to know what's wrong with him. But this much I do know - we are not winning anything with him next year, or probably ever at his age now. So I'm quite ready to deal him. I don't know if it's feasible from the monetary side - and I'm not saying just give him away for anyone either. But why would you not at least consider it?

I don't think anyone's saying that it shouldn't be considered.

But Jagr is a very complicated player when it comes to dealing him. For one, his contract is both huge and confusing (are the Rangers allowed to pay a portion of it if they ever find a deal that they like, or was this right taken away by the new CBA?).

Secondly, not only is he starting to get up there in age, but his injuries and mental state have to be a concern. Then again, he can still be a top-5 forward in the whole league.

And of course, other teams have to be wary about dealing for him if he doesn't want to go there. We all know how much Jagr loves playing in NY, and we also know that he's willing to coast through games if he's unhappy.

So given all that, I find it unlikely that the Rangers will ever be able to find a suitable package in exchange for him because no one is going to give them something that is worth what Jagr is when he's playing his best.

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03-02-2007, 01:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GUYMAN View Post
I don't claim to know what's wrong with him. But this much I do know - we are not winning anything with him next year, or probably ever at his age now. So I'm quite ready to deal him. I don't know if it's feasible from the monetary side - and I'm not saying just give him away for anyone either. But why would you not at least consider it?
I beg to differ.....there is absolutely nothing keeping the Rangers from winning with Jagr other than not having ENOUGH talent to get to the finals. You make it sound like Jagr is holding this team back and that's nonsense.

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03-02-2007, 01:41 PM
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I beg to differ.....there is absolutely nothing keeping the Rangers from winning with Jagr other than not having ENOUGH talent to get to the finals. You make it sound like Jagr is holding this team back and that's nonsense.
I agree with this is as well.

It's not as if Jagr is a problem, it's just that the rest of the team is not deep enough or capable enough to pick up the slack when he doesn't have it.

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03-02-2007, 01:43 PM
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I think you guys have covered it all. I think his shoulder has had a huge effect on his play this season, plus the fact that teams can just key on him and not really worry about anyone else. And that is especially true now that Shanny is out as well as Straka.

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03-02-2007, 01:46 PM
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im too lazy to read all these posts, (hey at least im honest!) but heres my take on Jagr. he, and his style are not the future of this franchise. look at how Hartford and Charlotte are structured, look at the players we draft. they are North american styled players (even the euros) not unlike Prucha who is very much a N/A euro. We arent about puck control, keeping things to the outside, waiting for the perfect play to develop, were about getting pucks to the net, getting guys in front of the net, and getting ugly goals. were about speed, grit, character, and a team game. things i dont see with the Jagr crew. no offense intended, hes still one of the greatest players to ever play the game, but hes not the future of this team, the players were bringing in just dont play that way, and frankly im happy they dont play that way.

With that said im happy they didnt trade jagr this season, i think he might bring back more value if he had a better season, which i fully expect him to do next year, his supposedly final year in the NHL.

Basically he should bring back 2-3 first rounders, 1 nhl ready young talent, and 1 or 2 good prospects when hes playing his full A game.

Trade him next year, and get ready for the new styled Rangers. accept that they play the game a different way, and dont force feed them this euro style.


thats my take on it.

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Old
03-02-2007, 01:46 PM
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Jagr is still Rangers best player, and he is having a good season. the reason there are doubts in his play this year are becuase of the fact that last season was a really good one for him. it overshadows this year

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03-02-2007, 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted by clmetsfan View Post
I agree with this is as well.

It's not as if Jagr is a problem, it's just that the rest of the team is not deep enough or capable enough to pick up the slack when he doesn't have it.
Its slowly getting better....but the level of skill is not where it needs to be yet....especially defensively! That is the real key to this core group. If they can somehow upgrade the defense, find a powerplay pointman, and get bodies in here that punish opposing players on the defensive end, things will turn for the better pretty quickly.

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03-02-2007, 02:25 PM
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Barry Melrose...

no relation to our beloved Melrose_jr, had some interesting things to say about Jags on ESPN:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/index

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03-02-2007, 02:33 PM
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no relation to our beloved Melrose_jr, had some interesting things to say about Jags on ESPN:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/index
I generally like Melrose, but he has been anti-Jagr for years. I remember listening to him complain about Jagr being soft last year too, MVP be damned. Whatever.

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03-02-2007, 02:52 PM
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My main point is Jagr can't lead the team to a Cup, my year long theme. I wanted to trade him to bring back some young assets to help accelerate the "youth movement." However what really concerns me is not his shoulder but legs. Jagr does not have the burst of speed he had last year. Although lighter he is much slower.I am quite concerned his legs are starting to betray him. Besides his strengh, his skating is what set him apart. No longer,. I'd trade him over the summer along with Sraka and not resign Nylander. Keep Shanny, sign some ufa's and really start to infuse youth.

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03-02-2007, 03:43 PM
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i dont post often, more out of mere frustration for this team, but if you look at the video, all his shots are one timers from the top of the circle, or wrist shots with a screen. if you remember the first shift of the season this year, same exact goal as many of them last year. His problem this year has been lack of shots he had 368 last year, so he'll have to average about 4 or 5 a game to equal that. And like many other people have said so far, his problem is depending on guys like nylander and straka to get him the puck in the perfect situation. Last year he use to come up the side boards cut into the middle and rip shots, like the first game of last years season where he had two goals against the flyers. Similarly, i think a lot of people haven taken a page out of the devils book and shadow him quite often. God only knows what jagr would be like if he played with two goal scorers rather than playmakers, i think kids like callahan would play great with him; see marcel hossa since stepping up to the top line. He's not as good as he was last year, but neither is the team, thats what you gotta remember.

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03-02-2007, 04:10 PM
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I'm not really in favor of trading Jagr unless there is some unforseen return.

At some point you need guys that are here a while to build around and while Jagr might not ever be a 50 goal, 120 point player again I think you'd still be hard pressed to find a 30 goal, 100 point player for $4.5 million a season.

I don't know if continuing to stock pile younger players is really going to change anything and I'm not in favor of the whole mercanaries for higher routine either.

Plus I'm still not convinced that a lot of the guys we have should just be thrown into a fire together. A lot of our kids are going to need development time. I think at this point you go ahead and keep certain guys and look to add youth around them.

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03-02-2007, 05:07 PM
  #25
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I generally like Melrose, but he has been anti-Jagr for years. I remember listening to him complain about Jagr being soft last year too, MVP be damned. Whatever.
Not to mention that he says he "was" a great offensive talent as if he didn't finish second in points last year. Even if he's not a leader, he's still one of the worlds best hockey players right now and to deny that is just plain ignorant. Obviously has something against him

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