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Digital Offsides

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Old
12-13-2003, 12:33 PM
  #51
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High-tech worked in that instance. They just didn't check until it was too late.

Anyway, the offsides is pretty straightforward.

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12-13-2003, 12:46 PM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Habsolution
Goal reviewing make the game less human and I'm sure there were people like evman and van to complain about it when it was introduced. But honestly who would take goal reviewing out of the game ?
I do support video review on goals...but as long as it is only used when the referee feels he needs it to make the correct call.

And with how fast the game is now, I also don't mind having the video judge call down if a goal is somehow missed by the officials. It is a rare enough occurrence that I can accept this rule.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Habsolution
those linesmen get for skating on the ice while watching a hockey game.
I could go into details about what linesmen do, but I won't bother because I don't think anybody here would understand what they do on the ice.


Quote:
Originally Posted by rob_paxon
Well it looks like the referees will have to finally break up scrums. Is this too much to ask?
If you want the appropriate penalties to be called, then yes it is. If you would like to see players get away with sucker punches and all sorts of cheapshots after the whistle because a referee is in the middle of breaking a few players apart, then no it is not.


Quote:
Originally Posted by rob_paxon
You can keep raising a fuss about the linesmen who will never get to play in the NHL.
Again...don't put words into my mouth. Do you honestly think that officials officiate out of jealousy of the players? If you do, then I laugh at you. I only dreamed of playing in the NHL as a child. When I was 14-15, my dream became to wear the stripes in the NHL...and I'm not the only such person either.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Chock Full Of Booger
Since when do they admit mistakes? They'd sooner invent a convoluted reinterpretation of an old rule than say they got it wrong.
Actually, most officials will admit their mistakes. I've made a few weak calls as a referee and missed the odd offside call, or blown one that wasn't.....all you do is tell the players that you **** up, and they will go about their business, and we might meet up for a beer after the game.

In the NHL and other high profile leagues, you have a lot of stuck-up players who think they should be immune to penalties, and if a referee ever does admit his mistake, the player will tell him to **** off. Not exactly respectful, now is it?

Long story short....officials do admit mistakes....we just never hear about it in the media.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chock Full Of Booger
High-tech worked in that instance. They just didn't check until it was too late.
Actually the technology failed on Leclair's phantom goal. CBC went right upstairs to interview the video judge that same period, and he said that the truck outside had trouble sending him the proper video feed, and he didn't get the video until well after play had resumed....which is obviously too late.

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Old
12-13-2003, 02:14 PM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chock Full Of Booger
...because mistakes are endearing?

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Old
12-13-2003, 08:33 PM
  #54
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I support the idea of using technology in a sport to help make the game more "accurate". However, please keep in mind that hockey is a human sport, not a computer\electronics sport. Let's not introduce AI into the sport as then it would be a computer sport. Keep chess for that. Keep goal judges in the sport. I think they'll have a place for a while, even with electronic tracking. I have to admit that it would be neat to see something like this in hockey because of different interests mixing into my favorite sport. Use electronic tracking to show where the puck went, where the players went, what part of the ice that a particular player shot the puck from. If there's ever a problem in officiating, then look at what the computer compiled

GoCoyotes, I actually thought of this idea just recently. With technology that already exists, some kind of system can be put together and basically keeping tabs on the game. It's all a matter of making these different technologies work together.

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12-14-2003, 06:17 AM
  #55
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In theory it is a good idea, but in practice something like this would be very hard to make, if you wanted it to work right 99% of the time. There are way too many things that could obscure the puck or fool the detector into thinking it sees the puck when it doesn't. Also, it has to monitor multiple skates and sticks as well and sort them all out in real-time to make the call... not a pragmatic solution with existing technology.

Hell, they still don't have the tennis ball thing exactly right and there's nothing at all to obscure it. They've been working on that thing for *years*.

The only thing I can think of is if the detectors were below the surface of the ice, and could somehow see through the cloudiness to make the call. Or they'd have to treat the ice to be more clear just inside the blueline somehow. Once you have a demonstration system ready, maybe have an offsides judge in a press box with the "call from below" and a video shot from above to confirm? And hooked up to a Mac (so the system doesn't crash mid-game )


Last edited by Darth Vitale: 12-14-2003 at 06:25 AM.
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Old
12-14-2003, 06:30 AM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evman150
Cities like Phoenix, Nashville, Atlanta, Raleigh etc get hockey, now they want to change the game. Well you know what? It's not yours to change.
Hmmm, I'm suffering from brain damage here. Before the WHA pumped more Canadian teams into the NHL there were only 2, right? So, why do some Canadians seem to have a inferiority complex when it comes to their being teams in so called "non-hockey" regions.

Your entire post seems petty.

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12-14-2003, 08:24 AM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Van
Actually, most officials will admit their mistakes.
No, they don't. You'd hear the quote "he even told me himself that he was wrong" much more often if that were true. Even without that bit of evidence, you can tell by watching their reactions that they're not interested in being right or wrong. They're interested in being obeyed.

Quote:
In the NHL and other high profile leagues, you have a lot of stuck-up players who think they should be immune to penalties, and if a referee ever does admit his mistake, the player will tell him to **** off. Not exactly respectful, now is it?
So?

Quote:
Long story short....officials do admit mistakes....we just never hear about it in the media.
Maybe they admit them amongst themselves. The anachronistic code of silence the league employs in dealing with blown calls, or their absurd, convoluted interpretations only kill the public trust.


Quote:
Actually the technology failed on Leclair's phantom goal. CBC went right upstairs to interview the video judge that same period, and he said that the truck outside had trouble sending him the proper video feed, and he didn't get the video until well after play had resumed....which is obviously too late.
Too late because of an arbitrary rule, not inherent to the technology itself.

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12-14-2003, 10:40 AM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WHurricane16
Hmmm, I'm suffering from brain damage here. Before the WHA pumped more Canadian teams into the NHL there were only 2, right?
Apparently you are suffering brain damage, because you're wrong.

It's hard to take an argument seriously when you get the facts totally wrong.


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12-14-2003, 11:27 AM
  #59
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If the system worked and was more efficient than the current set-up(linesmen), then I wouldn't mind seeing it implemented. I'm all for improving the game. I mean, when VCR's were developed, the league implemented video review, and that has been seen as a good addition, helped to make the right calls most of the time. If a digital offsides set-up could be developed that would be an improvement(ie, it was near 100% correct at all times), then what is the problem with it? Isn't the goal to improve the game?

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Old
12-14-2003, 03:26 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chock Full Of Booger
you can tell by watching their reactions that they're not interested in being right or wrong. They're interested in being obeyed.
Have you ever officiated a hockey game? If not, how can you honestly have an idea what the officials are "interested" in on the ice? Unless the NHL puts microphones on the referees, you don't know what is said out there. And I am really not trying to blow my own horn, but I do the job, so I know what it is like to wear the stripes on the ice. Officials DO admit mistakes when they make them.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Chock Full Of Booger
So?
So if I admit a mistake, and the player tells me to **** off, he has just earned himself an Unsportsmanlike penalty (either an extra 2 or 10, depending on the situation)....regardless how bad the original call is.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Griffin
Isn't the goal to improve the game?
Yes...to improve the game. Making hockey a robotic, technological joke is not improving the game.

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Old
12-14-2003, 03:45 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Van
Yes...to improve the game. Making hockey a robotic, technological joke is not improving the game.

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12-14-2003, 04:17 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Van
Yes...to improve the game. Making hockey a robotic, technological joke is not improving the game.
It's offsides, one part of the game. If there is technology that would enable every call to be accurate, why would that be a joke? Video replay was a technological advance that took a lot of descisions away from the refs and enabled the league to have the right call made almost 100% of the time. The majority of people view this is a great success. Why would a fail proof offsides system be any different?

If Refs were to be replaced by robots, you're statement would hold some validity, but offsides is still offsides no matter how it is called, the game wouldn't be changing at all in that aspect. If the league could implement a digital system that would be close to 100% accurate, how would that not improve the game?


Last edited by Peter Griffin: 12-14-2003 at 04:21 PM.
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12-14-2003, 04:19 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Van
Yes...to improve the game. Making hockey a robotic, technological joke is not improving the game.


Making hockey a robotic, technological joke ? Pleeaaaaaase. Last time I checked linesmen do not have sticks and don't play hockey. It's not like we're wanting to replace players with robots. You wouldn't even know that a freaking chip is in the puck. And it's not like we want to make the net flash when a goal is scored either. Now that would be making hockey a robotic, technological joke. On a sidenote I can't believe they're trying this in the OHL ...

BTW we could still have 2 linesmen on the ice. They would have one earpiece and would get signals when there's an offside so they would still get to blow the freaking whistle but they just wouldn't make any mistakes anymore. That way you wouldn't even be able to tell the difference between a game with the technology and one without. And your beloved NHL linesmen could still get to keep their job.

It's not necessarily about taking the linesmen out of the game. It's about making the calls more accurate. I fail to see how mistakes make the game better. I'm sure something good could be done with this technology.


Last edited by Les Zarbites: 12-14-2003 at 04:26 PM.
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Old
12-14-2003, 04:29 PM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Habsolution
BTW we could still have 2 linesmen on the ice. They would have one earpiece and would get signals when there's an offside so they would still get to blow the freaking whistle but they just wouldn't make any mistakes anymore. That way you wouldn't even be able to tell the difference between a game with the technology and one without. And your beloved NHL linesmen could still get to keep their job.


Exactly. Humans make mistakes and if there is a way to make offsides calls mistake free or near mistake free(like the NHL did with goal review) , how is that not improvement? I like your ideas on this topic.

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12-14-2003, 04:48 PM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Habsolution
That way you wouldn't even be able to tell the difference between a game with the technology and one without. And your beloved NHL linesmen could still get to keep their job.
With your suggested system, the decades worth of training these linesmen have gone through is flushed down the crapper. Any joe blow with muscles and reasonable skating ability could be thrown out there to do the job.

The training I have gone through is not training to be a pawn to technology...it is to make these calls myself.

The day I listen to an earpiece to tell me when there is an offside is the day that hockey becomes a robotic, technological joke.

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12-14-2003, 04:50 PM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Van
With your suggested system, the decades worth of training these linesmen have gone through is flushed down the crapper. Any joe blow with muscles and reasonable skating ability could be thrown out there to do the job.

The training I have gone through is not training to be a pawn to technology...it is to make these calls myself.
And if there is technology out there that can do a better job, so be it. I highly doubt that the NHL would turn down a chance to improve the game just because it will put some linesmen out of work, in fact I bet they'd jump all over it.

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12-14-2003, 04:54 PM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Griffin
And if there is technology out there that can do a better job, so be it. I highly doubt that the NHL would turn down a chance to improve the game just because it will put some linesmen out of work, in fact I bet they'd jump all over it.
...And considering the recently new Collective Bargaining Agreement the NHL has with the NHLOA, the league would also have 37 linesmen filing lawsuits, and I would imagine the 46 referees would strike in support of their linesmen losing their jobs.

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12-14-2003, 04:58 PM
  #68
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I dont' think they shoudl have computerized offsides. WAY too complicated

GOALS however, are a little different. You don't need to put chips in everybody's skates. You need a sensor in each net and a chip in the puck. If the puck crosses the line, a goal is signaled. We wont' have this "crossed the line, didn't cross the line, camera's got blocked by a pile of bodies" stuff that goes on now.

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12-14-2003, 04:58 PM
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Van
...And considering the recently new Collective Bargaining Agreement the NHL has with the NHLOA, the league would also have 37 linesmen filing lawsuits, and I would imagine the 46 referees would strike in support of their linesmen losing their jobs.
Who says the system would have to be implemented right now? When does the CBA agreement between the NHL and NHLOA expire?

In any case, this is all hypothetical anyway as no such system exists. But if there was, how would this not improve the game? Is accuracy not important?

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12-14-2003, 05:12 PM
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironchef Chris Wok
I dont' think they shoudl have computerized offsides. WAY too complicated

GOALS however, are a little different. You don't need to put chips in everybody's skates. You need a sensor in each net and a chip in the puck. If the puck crosses the line, a goal is signaled. We wont' have this "crossed the line, didn't cross the line, camera's got blocked by a pile of bodies" stuff that goes on now.
Even though I'd like to see earpieces in the linesmen ears that tells them wether there's an offside or not. I agree that goal reviewing would be the best thing that could come out of this technology. The guy behind the net could get the info and would always put the switch on when there's a goal. Or we could just take him away and put another seat there.

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12-14-2003, 05:14 PM
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironchef Chris Wok
GOALS however, are a little different. You don't need to put chips in everybody's skates. You need a sensor in each net and a chip in the puck. If the puck crosses the line, a goal is signaled. We wont' have this "crossed the line, didn't cross the line, camera's got blocked by a pile of bodies" stuff that goes on now.
I will again ask the questions that I'm pretty sure have yet to be answered...

1. Will the pucks be able to be frozen solid like they are now?

2. If yes to question #1, then how will the chips be inserted into the pucks?

3. Will the goal light be turned on when the chip inside the puck crosses the goal line, or will the goal light be turned on when the entire puck crosses the goal line? Are these chips smart enough to recognize the rules of the game?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Griffin
Who says the system would have to be implemented right now? When does the CBA agreement between the NHL and NHLOA expire?
I can't tell you for sure, but it was reached just before the 2001-02 season (they were very close to using replacement officials to start the season), so I would imagine it is long-term....as in at least 5-6 years. And yes, that does mean the officials' contracts are honoured by the NHL in case of a lockout.

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12-14-2003, 05:28 PM
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Van
With your suggested system, the decades worth of training these linesmen have gone through is flushed down the crapper. Any joe blow with muscles and reasonable skating ability could be thrown out there to do the job.

The training I have gone through is not training to be a pawn to technology...it is to make these calls myself.

The day I listen to an earpiece to tell me when there is an offside is the day that hockey becomes a robotic, technological joke.
If I'm a doctor and I have technology to help me out make more accurate diagnostics then all the better cuz more people are healthy.

If I'm an engineer and I have a program that can calculate every reactions that happens in a structure with more accuracy than all the better because people are safer in those buildings.

If I'm a linesman and I have an earpiece that help me make better calls so I never screw up then all the better too.

You'd still need the best linesmen and they would still go through the same stuff to make it into the league just in case the technology falters on a given night. Just like you'd still need people studying the exact same stuff to become docs and engineers. Technology can never fully replace human people. You always need people to make it work correctly. I see this "I want to make the call myself" thing of yours pretty self-centered. I guess that's what they call resistance to change.

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12-14-2003, 05:45 PM
  #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Van
I will again ask the questions that I'm pretty sure have yet to be answered...

1. Will the pucks be able to be frozen solid like they are now?

2. If yes to question #1, then how will the chips be inserted into the pucks?
No one knows for sure Van. The whole thing is hypothetical and is assuming the technology would work.

But if you really want an answer I'd bet that it is possible. I'm sure they can create a puck with the exact same weight with a chip in it that can work under low temperatures. Or they could wrap the chip in stuff that would keep the chip from freezing. The possibilities are numerous. And if it is not feasible right now there's no way that it won't be at some point in the future. We're not talking about teleportation or time travel here.

As for question number 2 I dunno how exactly it is done but how is that important ?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Van
3. Will the goal light be turned on when the chip inside the puck crosses the goal line, or will the goal light be turned on when the entire puck crosses the goal line? Are these chips smart enough to recognize the rules of the game?
I can actually answer this question. The chip in itself ain't smart but the computer that would get the signal sent from the puck could calculate the exact position of the entirety of the puck at any given fraction of seconds. So yes it could calculate VERY accurately at any given time where the puck is. No problem here.


Last edited by Les Zarbites: 12-14-2003 at 05:48 PM.
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12-15-2003, 03:55 AM
  #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Van
I will again ask the questions that I'm pretty sure have yet to be answered...

1. Will the pucks be able to be frozen solid like they are now?

2. If yes to question #1, then how will the chips be inserted into the pucks?

3. Will the goal light be turned on when the chip inside the puck crosses the goal line, or will the goal light be turned on when the entire puck crosses the goal line? Are these chips smart enough to recognize the rules of the game?
I'm pretty sure 1+2 can be answered by having the chips be pre-inserted into the pucks during manufacturing. Pucks would probably increase in cost, but not insanely (probably double the price of an existing puck AT MOST). Chips are cheap in mass these days.

As to number 3, i'm sure it can be engineered or written into the programming.

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12-15-2003, 02:20 PM
  #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironchef Chris Wok
I'm pretty sure 1+2 can be answered by having the chips be pre-inserted into the pucks during manufacturing. Pucks would probably increase in cost, but not insanely (probably double the price of an existing puck AT MOST). Chips are cheap in mass these days.

As to number 3, i'm sure it can be engineered or written into the programming.
Yeah, the "chips" would have to be inside the puck, meaning that the puck would have to be melted around it. As with heat, I don't think that it would be a problem, for my idea design.

As for detecting the puck going into the goal, all of the readers, "chip" in the puck, and the computer systems receiving and processing the data would all have to work together. For example, if the puck gets into a specific area of the ice (the goals), it would detect a goal. However, anything could happen, as it could see the puck fly over the goal, but not into, and think it's a goal, but it wasn't a goal. The only way to figure this out is in the development of the actual product.

Here's another problem to throw at everyone: interference. Any kind of electronic device (primarily RF devices) could cause potential interference to the digital offsides system. For example, some fan's cell phone which is located down near ice level could cause interference to the system, to where it causes confusion to the offsides system, or it doesn't even work at all. Also, could it be possible for anyone to set off "false goals"? So much to put into consideration.

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