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If Gainey went all out this summer...

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Old
03-10-2007, 10:30 AM
  #26
ECWHSWI
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LePoche69 View Post
I agree, Habs should have more players in that mold, like Begin, Lapierre, or a Claude Lemieux type of player, or a Mario Tremblay type, or a Yvon Lambert... Even second tier players with heart, like Éric Bélanger, or Gélinas, Laraque, Ouellet...

You're right, Habs do need players with heart.
is it really about heart ? cause frankly all the players you mentionned are better (some just slightly) than Lapierre and Bégin...

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Old
03-10-2007, 10:35 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by kernkraft View Post
-Trade Koivu to Minnesota for Benoit Pouliot
Why would we want to do that? Trade our captain for an unproven NHL player?

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Old
03-10-2007, 10:40 AM
  #28
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Get rid of 4.75 m$ py year.... Pouliot and Foster vs Koivu !

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03-10-2007, 10:51 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Vlad The Impaler View Post
Messing with UFAs by signing them and then trading them right after would definitly raise a red flag in UFAs minds. So it's a big no-no.
That's not entirely true.Boston traded both Thornton and Scatchard last year after (re)signing them and they were still able to sign Chara and Savard last summer.I'm not saying that this is a good exemple to follow but it does show that certain players follow the trail of money without really caring about the reputation of - insert X team here - with UFAs

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03-10-2007, 10:58 AM
  #30
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Why is everybody so hip to sign Markov to an outrageous salary. I wouldn't go any higher than $3.5 million for a couple of years with him. As for Souray, I'd try and sign him to a couple of years at $5.5 million. If both get crazier offers from other teams then we have to go the UFA route to rebuild our defense. There is nobody on the farm to replace these two or press the others out of a position so in addition to Dandenault, Boullion, Streit, and Komisarek I would sign one each from the following lists:


A List
Stuart
Salo
Sydor
Rafalski
Miller

B List
Vaananen
Klee
Rivet
Markov, Danny
Timmonen
Tanabe

The forward situation will sort itself out and there are plenty of young players to press for open spots. We all knew at the beginning of the year that defense was going to be the challenging spot in our lineup. Unfortunately, with the exception of Souray, all of our defensemen are a shadow of what they were last season. Have we maybe underestimated the contribution that Rick Green made to this team?

Check out www.nhlnumbers.com to get the full list of UFAs and present salaries (excellent reference site).

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Old
03-10-2007, 11:00 AM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kernkraft View Post
I'm bored, it's 4 in the morning and all I can think about for some reason is what we should do this offseason to rebuild.

You're Gainey, what do you do this summer? Go as crazy as you want (try to keep it plausible), no player is safe.


This is what I'd do:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Clean house:

-Sign Souray
-Sign Markov
-Trade Souray and 1st round pick to L.A. for their 1st round pick and Jack Johnson
-Trade Koivu to Minnesota for Benoit Pouliot (Saku gets to play with his younger brother)
-Trade Kovalev and 1st round pick (San Jose's) to Washington for their #1 pick (Washington gets a Russian veteran as sort of a "mentor" (can't think of a better word) for Ovechkin and Semin)
-Trade Bouillon, Dandenault, Murray for whatever we can get
-Buy out Samsonov's contract
-Get Emelin out of Russia
-Let our remaining UFAs walk (Bonk, Johnson, Aebischer)
-Draft Cherepanov with LA's pick
-Draft either Kane, Couture, Voracek or (insert favorite draft prospect here) with Washington's pick
-Sign Briere


MY next year's line-up:

Higgins-Briere-Ryder
Kostitsyn-Grabovski-Cherepanov
Pouliot-Plekanec-Perezhogin
Begin-Lapierre-Latendresse

Markov-Emelin
Komisarek-Johnson
O'Byrne-Streit

Huet
Halak/Price
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think my chances of winning the 6/49 are better than this happening but I had a lot of fun scheming this so it's all good.


p.s. If you think this is ******** and that there are too many of these types of thread, please think of the children and don't get too pissed off.
We can sign and trade an UFA.
Briere wont come here
Buffalo or Philly possibly

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Old
03-10-2007, 11:14 AM
  #32
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To be constructive, I'm going to alter your proposal to what I think is a little more realistic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kernkraft View Post
This is what I'd do:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Clean house:

-Sign Souray
-Sign Markov
-Trade Souray and 1st round pick to L.A. for their 1st round pick and Jack JohnsonOkay, assuming we manage some kind of sign-and-trade with L.A. there is no hope we get Jack Johnson at all, let alone their first round pick. The first is plausible, but Souray won't have tons of value given he was available and just signed. Teams won't be willing to trade much for him. You might get the 1st, but we'd have to offer something in return to sweeten the deal for LA, a team wanting young talent.
-Trade Koivu to Minnesota for Benoit Pouliot (Saku gets to play with his younger brother)This could actually happen. The value seems within negotiating limits.
-Trade Kovalev and 1st round pick (San Jose's) to Washington for their #1 pick (Washington gets a Russian veteran as sort of a "mentor" (can't think of a better word) for Ovechkin and Semin)You'd have to trade our first round pick (MTL's), if not theoretically the LA pick in order to move up that far with just Kovalev. Kovy gets paid a lot and doesn't have much value. Remember we got him for Josef Balej and a 2. More realistically, SJ pick (or maybe MTL's 2), MTL pick and Kovalev (depending on where each team finishes) might get you up to WSH's pick.
-Trade Bouillon, Dandenault, Murray for whatever we can get Bouillon and Dandenault can probably be moved but we'll probably need to take players in return. Murray has already cleared waivers. We're stuck with him for another season, but likely in the AHL.
-Buy out Samsonov's contractThat means a $1.75m cap hit for '07-'08 and '08-'09
-Get Emelin out of Russiagiven we've traded 3 of our defensemen, he could probably come over. He's more or less stated that he won't report to Hamilton if we send him there, so we need to give him a spot in Montreal
-Let our remaining UFAs walk (Bonk, Johnson, Aebischer)
-Draft Cherepanov with LA's pick
-Draft either Kane, Couture, Voracek or (insert favorite draft prospect here) with Washington's pick
-Sign Briere Could happen, I guess.

You seem to not like defensemen at all. This lineup has an impressive offense but no defense given you're not getting Jack Johnson for Souray. I'd rather take Alzner than an offensive talent, but that's still not going to help us next season. I think more realistically these moves would get us one high pick, so Cherepanov could be a possibility. The most infeasible part of this is Souray sign-and-trade, which is pretty much unheard of in the NHL. Also, the defense needs a lot of work.

MY next year's line-up:

Higgins-Briere-Ryder
Kostitsyn-Grabovski-Cherepanov
Pouliot-Plekanec-Perezhogin
Begin-Lapierre-Latendresse

Markov-Emelin
Komisarek-Gorges
O'Byrne-Streit

Huet
Halak/Price
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think my chances of winning the 6/49 are better than this happening but I had a lot of fun scheming this so it's all good.


p.s. If you think this is ******** and that there are too many of these types of thread, please think of the children and don't get too pissed off.
I wouldn't be surprised if Gainey was fairly active since I think it's clear that this core of players can't take us further than being a fringe playoff team. Kovalev and Samsonov would be the easiest to dump (in terms of fan/media criticism), but trading Koivu could be a disaster without already knowing a replacement will sign here. I don't think we'll be able to sign Briere, because there are more teams with more cap space and more glaring holes than we have.

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Old
03-10-2007, 11:16 AM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 24Cups View Post
Why is everybody so hip to sign Markov to an outrageous salary. I wouldn't go any higher than $3.5 million for a couple of years with him. As for Souray, I'd try and sign him to a couple of years at $5.5 million. If both get crazier offers from other teams then we have to go the UFA route to rebuild our defense. There is nobody on the farm to replace these two or press the others out of a position so in addition to Dandenault, Boullion, Streit, and Komisarek I would sign one each from the following lists:


A List
Stuart
Salo
Sydor
Rafalski
Miller

B List
Vaananen
Klee
Rivet
Markov, Danny
Timmonen
Tanabe

The forward situation will sort itself out and there are plenty of young players to press for open spots. We all knew at the beginning of the year that defense was going to be the challenging spot in our lineup. Unfortunately, with the exception of Souray, all of our defensemen are a shadow of what they were last season. Have we maybe underestimated the contribution that Rick Green made to this team?

Check out www.nhlnumbers.com to get the full list of UFAs and present salaries (excellent reference site).
I think I'd take Hannan over any of the others on that A list. Timonen should be on that A list, too.
Hannan and Timonen would be awesome.

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Old
03-10-2007, 11:20 AM
  #34
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If I am Washington I don't want anything to do with Kovalev mentoring Ovechkin. Keep Ovechkin as far away from that floater as they can
Not just that but Washington has a budget. I'm not sure what it is, but I'm pretty sure they won't spend 4.5m on a player.

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Old
03-10-2007, 12:19 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 24Cups View Post
Why is everybody so hip to sign Markov to an outrageous salary. I wouldn't go any higher than $3.5 million for a couple of years with him. As for Souray, I'd try and sign him to a couple of years at $5.5 million. If both get crazier offers from other teams then we have to go the UFA route to rebuild our defense. There is nobody on the farm to replace these two or press the others out of a position so in addition to Dandenault, Boullion, Streit, and Komisarek I would sign one each from the following lists:


A List
Stuart
Salo
Sydor
Rafalski
Miller

B List
Vaananen
Klee
Rivet
Markov, Danny
Timmonen
Tanabe

The forward situation will sort itself out and there are plenty of young players to press for open spots. We all knew at the beginning of the year that defense was going to be the challenging spot in our lineup. Unfortunately, with the exception of Souray, all of our defensemen are a shadow of what they were last season. Have we maybe underestimated the contribution that Rick Green made to this team?

Check out www.nhlnumbers.com to get the full list of UFAs and present salaries (excellent reference site).
Miller is no better (nor worse) than Rivet

Timmonen belongs in your "A" list !

Rafalski will stay in NJ, I guess...

I would not say no to Vaananen as a big, strong third pairing d-man.

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Old
03-10-2007, 12:24 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 24Cups View Post
Why is everybody so hip to sign Markov to an outrageous salary. I wouldn't go any higher than $3.5 million for a couple of years with him. As for Souray, I'd try and sign him to a couple of years at $5.5 million. If both get crazier offers from other teams then we have to go the UFA route to rebuild our defense. There is nobody on the farm to replace these two or press the others out of a position so in addition to Dandenault, Boullion, Streit, and Komisarek I would sign one each from the following lists:


A List
Stuart
Salo
Sydor
Rafalski
Miller

B List
Vaananen
Klee
Rivet
Markov, Danny
Timmonen
Tanabe

The forward situation will sort itself out and there are plenty of young players to press for open spots. We all knew at the beginning of the year that defense was going to be the challenging spot in our lineup. Unfortunately, with the exception of Souray, all of our defensemen are a shadow of what they were last season. Have we maybe underestimated the contribution that Rick Green made to this team?

Check out www.nhlnumbers.com to get the full list of UFAs and present salaries (excellent reference site).
There's a big irony here: The Habs might have pay an outrageous salary to the other Markov. I'd rather spend it on Andrei.

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Old
03-10-2007, 12:38 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
is it really about heart ? cause frankly all the players you mentionned are better (some just slightly) than Lapierre and Bégin...
I think you missed the point of my reply. It was refering to a quote. If you read the original post to which is refering to, you'll understand the point I was making.

...I do agree it's not enough. Habs need a lot of things.

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Old
03-10-2007, 12:43 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Shabutie View Post
Not just that but Washington has a budget. I'm not sure what it is, but I'm pretty sure they won't spend 4.5m on a player.
They have stated their intention to increase the budget in the coming season. Also I think Kovalev and Ovechkin would be a very good fit.

Who wants to play against Ovechkin-Backstrom-Kovalev?

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Old
03-10-2007, 12:56 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlad The Impaler View Post
It's totally different. Like night and day. Havlat was a RFA and unsigned. The Sens could not agree with him and traded him.



He'll be a UFA as soon as contracts are up, same as any player. Until then, the Habs can talk to him and nobody else can, that's the only difference.



Once again, this is not a playstation game. Things don't work like that.

Finally, a posters who uses his brain!
Totally agree.

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Old
03-10-2007, 01:00 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SOLR View Post
They have stated their intention to increase the budget in the coming season. Also I think Kovalev and Ovechkin would be a very good fit.

Who wants to play against Ovechkin-Backstrom-Kovalev?
Who wants to play against Ovechkin-Backstrom-X actually.

Kovalev sucks.

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Old
03-10-2007, 01:41 PM
  #41
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Just some random thoughts

First priority: sign Markov

I personally would let Sheldon Souray walk and look at the following as possible replacements



1 Vitaly Vishnevski (may be able to get for around 3 M)
2 Brad Stuart (probably in the 3 – 4 M)
3 Scott Hannan (I’m thinking 3M range)
4 Brent Sopel (probably 3.5 M)


I would look at these guys as possible additions if there was a way to move Boullion and Dandeneault

5 Andy Sutton
6 Ossi Vaananen
7 Danny Markov
8 Martin Skoula


I would try to resign Bonk – no more than 1.8 - 2.0 million

Then I would look at the following additions if Bonk didn’t pan out

1 Eric Belanger
2 Adam Mair
3 Todd White

Mike Johnson I’m so-so on. I would not offer more than 1.5 otherwise I’m looking at the following to take his spot

1 Arron Asham
2 Ian Laperriere
3 Antti Laaksonen



Kovalev and Sammy would definitely be out. Either trades(also know as salary dumps – you’d probably have to give up some draft picks) or buy-outs.

TARGETED PLAYERS - VIA TRADES (if the UFA market doesn’t pan out)

Brad Boyes
David Backes
Antoine Vermette
Jeff Halpern

You’d be looking at having to move prospects like Perezhogin and maybe Kosts to get some of the above so I’m not sure what Gainey’s conviction is here.


Discuss.

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Old
03-10-2007, 01:59 PM
  #42
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Uggghghhh.... I wouldn't trade Higgins for Richards 1vs1, let alone adding someone else to the deal, unless that someone has negative value. Which pretty much equals Janne Niniimaa, but he's walking anyways next summer.

And I don't why people bashes Maxim Lapierre... We might just have gotten our own version of Bobby Holik, without having an albatross for a contract...

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03-10-2007, 02:12 PM
  #43
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Gainey must sign or trade for a #1 center for next season or he is an idiot.

even if we draft a top center this summer he won't be ready for #1 mins in the NHL for at least 2 seasons probably more. IF gainey does not plan on having a strong playoff next season by having a #1 center then he is an idiot. How many years does the man believe is neccessary to make a cup contender from a team that was almost good enough to make playoffs years ago. He has taken too long to turn things around here. Next season is his last chance. IF we don't have a contender by christmas next year i would fire everybody. We have a better team the one that has played the last few months. what a joke this season has turned out to be. Gainey should have made a move for a top center in the begining of the slide. HE knew for years we needed another top center with koivu. When he gave up on Ribs and traded him, he should have replaced him with a top center. I know it would have costed a lot but that is what we need. IN teh end if he has the balls he will have to pay large for one. Cause it seems none want to come here on their own. So we must trade for one. Developing some is a good thing too but that takes years and years. We must try to develop some top centers and we must trade for one ASAP!!!

IF there is no new top center in place before next season we are doomed again

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Old
03-10-2007, 06:30 PM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Dark Side View Post
That's not entirely true.Boston traded both Thornton and Scatchard last year after (re)signing them and they were still able to sign Chara and Savard last summer.I'm not saying that this is a good exemple to follow but it does show that certain players follow the trail of money without really caring about the reputation of - insert X team here - with UFAs
But that is different once again. Joe Thornton was a restricted free agent when he signed that contract. He didn't have control over his destiny. It was just Boston controlling an asset that they still "owned" (restricted).

The whole point of unrestricted free agency for players, the reason why they value it (aside from the overbidding of course) is that they control where they will play. If you start messing around with this right after they sign, they will ignore Montreal or they will all ask for NTCs.

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03-10-2007, 06:34 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Vlad The Impaler View Post
But that is different once again. Joe Thornton was a restricted free agent when he signed that contract. He didn't have control over his destiny. It was just Boston controlling an asset that they still "owned" (restricted).

The whole point of unrestricted free agency for players, the reason why they value it (aside from the overbidding of course) is that they control where they will play. If you start messing around with this right after they sign, they will ignore Montreal or they will all ask for NTCs.

So do you figure free agents won't sign in New York this summer because Aaron ward was dealt? I would think it would be far form one of the top reason why a player would or wouldn't sign with a particular team.

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03-10-2007, 06:45 PM
  #46
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So do you figure free agents won't sign in New York this summer because Aaron ward was dealt? I would think it would be far form one of the top reason why a player would or wouldn't sign with a particular team.
Ward was dealt towards the end of the season when a riff developed between him and Jagr. That was slightly different than signing someone and trading right away.

However keep in mind that Gainey has shown that he is not afraid to move guys he's signed and it hasn't worked out. He moved both Theodore (in MTL) and Audette (in Dallas & I think he was a UFA signing). I think he tried to move Sammy but in a salary cap world it becomes more difficult to move your mistakes.

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03-10-2007, 07:12 PM
  #47
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A riff developed? they were writing songs together?

Point is players know it's a business, and if you trade a guy in the first year he's signed as a UFA, there is going to be a reason, whether it's developing a rift with the star player or being unhappy about ice time and requesting a trade.

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03-10-2007, 07:12 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by turnbuckle View Post
So do you figure free agents won't sign in New York this summer because Aaron ward was dealt?
All players (without NTC) can be traded whenever their team wants.

But if you start signing high-profile UFAs *with the intent* of trading them soon after, yeah, I think a team would be in trouble.

Aaron Ward played there and it didn't work out, so they sent him at the deadline.

Quote:
Originally Posted by turnbuckle View Post
I would think it would be far form one of the top reason why a player would or wouldn't sign with a particular team.
It's second only to money.

Money comes first for most. Inevitably followed by which team and city they will play for.

So yeah, it's definitly one of the top reasons. What else could there be?

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Old
03-10-2007, 09:52 PM
  #49
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you're not getting Jack Johnson for Souray.
I don't know man, L.A. got Johnson in return of Eric Belanger.

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Old
03-10-2007, 10:00 PM
  #50
Vlad The Impaler
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I don't know man, L.A. got Johnson in return of Eric Belanger.
It was actually Jack Johnson and overpaid Oleg Tverdovsky (a negative value, not an asset) for Bélanger and Tim Gleason.

If you think you can just have Souray "sign a big number" on a contract and send him to Los Angeles, you are dreaming. Los Angeles will make him an offer in the off season if they want him so bad.

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