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Krieger: Avs front office yesterday's Midas

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Old
03-16-2007, 11:43 AM
  #26
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Originally Posted by ABasin View Post
I'll say up front that I absolutely *HATE* conspiracy theory.

Now, can you cite one instance where Lou somehow circumvented the CBA and got some kind of preferential treatment from Bettman or the league?

-AB
But isn't that why they call it a conspiracy theory?

There's no proof....just fans of every team besides NJ saying it's so.

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03-16-2007, 11:51 AM
  #27
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But isn't that why they call it a conspiracy theory?

There's no proof....just fans of every team besides NJ saying it's so.
Fans of every team? I've only heard that once, and that was 15 minutes ago in this forum.

I mean, those guys had cap problems, just like the Avs did. And they had a couple of bad contracts to deal with also. But, they got decent production out of the players they were supposed to get it from, they brought along a couple of young players who performed, they got $6M-type goaltending out of a $6M goaltender, and mostly, their team plays a disciplined, team-oriented defensive game without a whole lot of big-name defensemen.

They're simply one of the teams who had great pre-Cap success and have managed to keep it going - unlike our crew. I don't see where they've received Bettman's specific help. If you have, please provide that evidence, and let's discuss it. :-)

-AB

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03-16-2007, 12:11 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by ABasin View Post
Fans of every team? I've only heard that once, and that was 15 minutes ago in this forum.

I mean, those guys had cap problems, just like the Avs did. And they had a couple of bad contracts to deal with also. But, they got decent production out of the players they were supposed to get it from, they brought along a couple of young players who performed, they got $6M-type goaltending out of a $6M goaltender, and mostly, their team plays a disciplined, team-oriented defensive game without a whole lot of big-name defensemen.

They're simply one of the teams who had great pre-Cap success and have managed to keep it going - unlike our crew. I don't see where they've received Bettman's specific help. If you have, please provide that evidence, and let's discuss it. :-)

-AB
I'm not one of those conspiracy theorists. I do remember though, around when Lou was trying to re-sign Elias, a lot of people were saying that he was circumventing the CBA, and that Bettman was letting him do it. It was all over the main boards. I never read a lot into it, I just remember seeing multiple topics.

I don't believe that Lou does that, because I don't think he could get away with it.

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03-16-2007, 12:22 PM
  #29
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It's perfectly fair to compare the job Lacroix did post cap to the jobs Lou and Holland did. The one point that can be made is that Lacroix did not have any bad contracts to buy out, but nevertheless, he approached the cap with the mentality that it screwed him and he had to accept it, while Holland and Lou have been doing everything they can to keep their teams together and keep them as competetive as they were pre-cap. And they've been successful.

Nevertheless, when you look at the players the Avs have lost since the cap and the number of bad FA signings and The Bad Trade and the bonuses, they're not as bad off as you think they would be. FG has a chance to make big improvements to this team, and we can already be excited about the future with a couple of young stud forwards.

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03-16-2007, 12:58 PM
  #30
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Id say Lou has made worse signings than PL did, but Lou shoved them on the farm (McGillis, Mogilny) or traded them (Malakhov). He now has a 6 mil Elias underproducing too. PL did nothing really with Theo.

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03-16-2007, 01:05 PM
  #31
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Id say Lou has made worse signings than PL did, but Lou shoved them on the farm (McGillis, Mogilny) or traded them (Malakhov). He now has a 6 mil Elias underproducing too. PL did nothing really with Theo.
I completely agree with that. If I may put it another way, Lou made a few bad signings, then CORRECTED them. We did no such thing with our bad signings - well, we finally did trade May, I guess. The good news is that all of the bad signings only had 2 full seasons on them.

It'll be interesting to see if the Avs buy out Theodore, or send him to Albany, next season.

-AB

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03-16-2007, 01:59 PM
  #32
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It'll be interesting to see if the Avs buy out Theodore, or send him to Albany, next season.

-AB
Is it okay if I dream of some team snatching up Theo on waivers if we attempt to send him to minors?

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03-16-2007, 02:03 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by ABasin View Post
I completely agree with that. If I may put it another way, Lou made a few bad signings, then CORRECTED them. We did no such thing with our bad signings - well, we finally did trade May, I guess. The good news is that all of the bad signings only had 2 full seasons on them.
Would you rather have traded our 1st this year to be rid of Brisebois and Theodore.

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03-16-2007, 02:04 PM
  #34
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Is it okay if I dream of some team snatching up Theo on waivers if we attempt to send him to minors?
I could see it happening on recall waivers.

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03-16-2007, 02:12 PM
  #35
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PL's problem was that he gave two year contracts to Brisebois and Turgeon. Because of the age of those players when they signed those contracts if the Avs bought them out, sent them down to the minors or if they retired, the Avs would still be stuck with the full cap hit. Another problem...you can't buyout or trade a bonus

Not sure why people continue to compare Colorado's situation to New Jersey's; different circumstances.

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03-16-2007, 02:18 PM
  #36
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I dont think if we sent them down we would have the cap hit still? Why would then Lou send down McGillis, who I think is over 35 or Mogilny?

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03-16-2007, 03:16 PM
  #37
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PL's problem was that he gave two year contracts to Brisebois and Turgeon. Because of the age of those players when they signed those contracts if the Avs bought them out, sent them down to the minors or if they retired, the Avs would still be stuck with the full cap hit. Another problem...you can't buyout or trade a bonus

Not sure why people continue to compare Colorado's situation to New Jersey's; different circumstances.
It's not that they're the same circumstances, but that Lou did the best he could with difficult circumstances he faced, and Pierre could have done better. And he's made other huge mistakes besides Brisebois and Turgeon that don't need to be rehashed.

To be fair, I'll point out some positive post cap era things: the outstanding 2005 draft, signing Andrew Brunette for cheap, and getting Hejduk signed to a long term deal at an excellent value.

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03-16-2007, 03:18 PM
  #38
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Would you rather have traded our 1st this year to be rid of Brisebois and Theodore.
If it were done at the beginning of the year, yes.

-AB

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03-16-2007, 03:34 PM
  #39
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If it were done at the beginning of the year, yes.

-AB
Thing is, at the point the Avs were seeing that Theodore was a total waste, it was too late to move him and still have the neccisary parts to make a 2nd trade to improve the team with the Free Cap Space...

If the Avs had packaged their 1st and a mid level prospect to move Theo, what really would they have had left to make a 2nd move with other than have average picks and prospects. Heck, who knows.. they might have tossed Wolski or more likely Stastny in to get another player.... (shudders)


I think that most were believing that Theodore was on the road back to at least a SOLID game again after a good playoffs. By the time it was known for sure that Theo was a lost cause it was to late to move him AND improve the club.....

So you might as well hold onto him for this summer, when the cap is increasing and there might be more potential teams willing to take on his contract as he only has one year left.

Is it worth our 1st and maybe a prospect to move Theo in the offseason... should they buy him out... demote him.. or will they keep him on...... who knows....

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03-16-2007, 03:37 PM
  #40
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And we couldn't trade away the bonuses. So it would be ridding ourselves of $3.75 million and a 1st.

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03-16-2007, 03:54 PM
  #41
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And we couldn't trade away the bonuses. So it would be ridding ourselves of $3.75 million and a 1st.
Ah, well that changes my opinion then.

What bonuses are you referring to?

-AB

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03-16-2007, 03:58 PM
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Ah, well that changes my opinion then.

What bonuses are you referring to?

-AB
Sakic and Blake.

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03-16-2007, 04:02 PM
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It's not that they're the same circumstances, but that Lou did the best he could with difficult circumstances he faced, and Pierre could have done better. And he's made other huge mistakes besides Brisebois and Turgeon that don't need to be rehashed.

To be fair, I'll point out some positive post cap era things: the outstanding 2005 draft, signing Andrew Brunette for cheap, and getting Hejduk signed to a long term deal at an excellent value.
Giguere made the best of his bad situation as well. Comparing to New Jersey and Detroit is fine if they have identical problems, they didn't. That's my problem with Krieger's column.

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03-16-2007, 04:05 PM
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Ah, well that changes my opinion then.

What bonuses are you referring to?

-AB
In the contracts Sakic and Blake signed in 2001, there was an option for a sixth year. When the Avs declined those options last year, it gave the team some more cap room. Yet, by declining those options, it kicked in a three million bonus (rolled back to 2.3) for each player that would be paid the following season. What the Avs didn't know at the time was that those bonuses would count against the cap.

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03-16-2007, 04:05 PM
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Sakic and Blake.
What do those bonuses have to do with moving a 1st to get rid of Brisebrois and Theodore? I suspect that question came from the Lou/NJ discussion, and him giving up a 1st to get rid of Malakhov's salary.

If the Avs gave up this year's first, and in the process got rid of Brisebrois and Theodore, they would have rid themselves of $7.5M in salary cap space.

IMO, that would have been worth it.

-AB

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03-16-2007, 04:07 PM
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In the contracts Sakic and Blake signed in 2001, there was an option for a sixth year. When the Avs declined those options last year, it gave the team some more cap room. Yet, by declining those options, it kicked in a three million bonus (rolled back to 2.3) for each player that would be paid the following season. What the Avs didn't know at the time was that those bonuses would count against the cap.
Yes, I understand the Sakic and Blake bonuses.

What I don't understand is what those bonuses have to do with moving a 1st to get rid of Brisebrois' and Theodore's salary.

-AB

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03-16-2007, 04:08 PM
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Giguere made the best of his bad situation as well. Comparing to New Jersey and Detroit is fine if they have identical problems, they didn't. That's my problem with Krieger's column.
Where do you see the drastic differences?

-AB

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03-16-2007, 04:09 PM
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You have to weigh the value of a first round pick (which is likely going to be 10-14) or buying out Theodore and taking a cap hit the next two years. The Avs weren't going to trade Theodore at the beginning of the season, they expected him to return to form. The Devils were forced because they were over the cap, the Avs were not over the cap.

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03-16-2007, 04:16 PM
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You have to weigh the value of a first round pick (which is likely going to be 10-14) or buying out Theodore and taking a cap hit the next two years. The Avs weren't going to trade Theodore at the beginning of the season, they expected him to return to form. The Devils were forced because they were over the cap, the Avs were not over the cap.
I understand that. The question was hypothetical, so is the answer. And your points above are why I said "if it were done at the beginning of the year".

How FG handles the Theodore situation will be one of the more interesting things to see this offseason. The other being how he handles the UFA situation.

-AB

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03-16-2007, 04:20 PM
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Where do you see the drastic differences?

-AB
I'm not going to argue that the Avs have been perfect under the new cap system, far from it, but I also felt they had disadvantages. They didn't really have any bad contracts to buyout like Detroit had with Hatcher, that's my issue with the Detroit comparison. As for New Jersey, yeah they lost two great defensemen, but they have a world class goaltender. Regarding their problems this season, they were over the cap, the Avs were not. They had to dump a first round pick to get rid of a player and were saved with Mogilny on LTIR. They had to deal with a sizeable arbitration award for Gomez. I applaud them for what they did, but they weren't dealing with an unmoveable bonus or players in Turgeon and Brisebois that nobody wanted (and were healthy at the time) and couldn't be stashed away without taking a full cap hit. Both teams dealt with cap issues, but not the same type of issues.

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