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Krieger: Avs front office yesterday's Midas

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Old
03-16-2007, 05:23 PM
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ABasin View Post
I understand that. The question was hypothetical, so is the answer. And your points above are why I said "if it were done at the beginning of the year".

How FG handles the Theodore situation will be one of the more interesting things to see this offseason. The other being how he handles the UFA situation.

-AB
Agreed

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03-16-2007, 05:24 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by ABasin View Post
What do those bonuses have to do with moving a 1st to get rid of Brisebrois and Theodore? I suspect that question came from the Lou/NJ discussion, and him giving up a 1st to get rid of Malakhov's salary.

If the Avs gave up this year's first, and in the process got rid of Brisebrois and Theodore, they would have rid themselves of $7.5M in salary cap space.

IMO, that would have been worth it.

-AB
And you had a crystall ball that told you Theodore wouldn't rebound?

There was $4.6mill on the cap that couldn't be ridded any way. $5.3 for Theo which would have been imprudent to unload, which leaves about $4.45 to be rid of.

And keep in mind the Devils didn't dump the cap space to go shopping on the free agent market Lou had to resign Gionta.

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03-16-2007, 05:31 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Jori View Post
I'm not going to argue that the Avs have been perfect under the new cap system, far from it, but I also felt they had disadvantages. They didn't really have any bad contracts to buyout like Detroit had with Hatcher, that's my issue with the Detroit comparison. As for New Jersey, yeah they lost two great defensemen, but they have a world class goaltender. Regarding their problems this season, they were over the cap, the Avs were not. They had to dump a first round pick to get rid of a player and were saved with Mogilny on LTIR. They had to deal with a sizeable arbitration award for Gomez. I applaud them for what they did, but they weren't dealing with an unmoveable bonus or players in Turgeon and Brisebois that nobody wanted (and were healthy at the time) and couldn't be stashed away without taking a full cap hit. Both teams dealt with cap issues, but not the same type of issues.
I agree that they weren't identical, but if you go back one more year - to right after the new CBA was signed - I think the teams all had a similar situation:

- They were all long term successful teams.
- They were all up against the Cap and had to let players go who they wanted to keep.
- They all had to sign/add UFAs/cheaper players to replace the stars.
- They all had to play young/developing players to fill roster spots.
- They all managed to keep a couple of superstar players, although they chose different positions (NJ chose goal and forward, the Avs chose defense and forward, the Wings chose defense and well, defense).

Now, here we sit almost exactly two years later, and let's compare the three front offices in total: Who did the best, and who did the worst? Not just this past year, but in the past two?

-AB

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03-16-2007, 05:34 PM
  #54
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Made it just as far as the Devils and further than Detroit.

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03-16-2007, 05:36 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hasbro View Post
And you had a crystall ball that told you Theodore wouldn't rebound?
That wasn't your question. You asked whether I would have been willing to give up a #1 pick to rid the team of both Brisebrois' and Theodore's salaries. And my answer was yes - if it were done at the beginning of the year, so the Avs would have time to do something about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hasbro View Post
There was $4.6mill on the cap that couldn't be ridded any way. $5.3 for Theo which would have been imprudent to unload, which leaves about $4.45 to be rid of.

And keep in mind the Devils didn't dump the cap space to go shopping on the free agent market Lou had to resign Gionta.
Your point about the $4.6M that couldn't be ridded of, doesn't matter in context to your question to me. I mean, wasted cap space is wasted cap space. This year, the Avs have that $4.6M of bonus cap space that's wasted and they couldn't do anything about it. But, with the two salaries in question, the Avs have another $7M+ in wasted space that is/was moveable, albeit not easily so.

But, to your original question, if someone came along partway into the season and said "Hey FG, I'll take those two salaries off your hands if you give up your 2007 #1 pick", I would have supported that trade.

-AB

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03-16-2007, 05:36 PM
  #56
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back to the lou issue, i find it humorous that the proof of his "cheating" is that people on the main board called him a cheater.

he is the best gm in the league, the notion that the league helped him out is a joke. more likely someone got fired for not realizing that the loopholes he used existed.

as for the season - it wasnt really a bad season at all. peoples still need to adjust expectations a bit. the avs are rebuilding a bit, everyone knew last year it was gonna take a couple of years. i have no idea why it gets forgotten. even if everyone had been healthy, this team would be fighting for the last playoff spot. they are weak in net - budaj has stepped up and done his best but he isnt enough to carry the team on his back. next year will be better, sometimes you just have to step back and accept. this is the life of an average hockey team.

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03-16-2007, 05:36 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hasbro View Post
Made it just as far as the Devils and further than Detroit.
Does that mean that you believe that the Avs have done better than the Devils and Wings in this regard?

-AB

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03-16-2007, 05:48 PM
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Originally Posted by ABasin View Post
Does that mean that you believe that the Avs have done better than the Devils and Wings in this regard?

-AB
It means those with agendas tend to exagerate the situation.

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03-16-2007, 06:01 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ABasin View Post
I agree that they weren't identical, but if you go back one more year - to right after the new CBA was signed - I think the teams all had a similar situation:

- They were all long term successful teams.
- They were all up against the Cap and had to let players go who they wanted to keep.
- They all had to sign/add UFAs/cheaper players to replace the stars.
- They all had to play young/developing players to fill roster spots.
- They all managed to keep a couple of superstar players, although they chose different positions (NJ chose goal and forward, the Avs chose defense and forward, the Wings chose defense and well, defense).

Now, here we sit almost exactly two years later, and let's compare the three front offices in total: Who did the best, and who did the worst? Not just this past year, but in the past two?

-AB
Taking in both years, the Avs did the worst. Yet, will Detroit be drastically ahead if they flame out in the first round again? I'd definately put New Jersey ahead of both Colorado and Detroit.

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03-16-2007, 06:03 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bleedgreen View Post
back to the lou issue, i find it humorous that the proof of his "cheating" is that people on the main board called him a cheater.

he is the best gm in the league, the notion that the league helped him out is a joke. more likely someone got fired for not realizing that the loopholes he used existed.

as for the season - it wasnt really a bad season at all. peoples still need to adjust expectations a bit. the avs are rebuilding a bit, everyone knew last year it was gonna take a couple of years. i have no idea why it gets forgotten. even if everyone had been healthy, this team would be fighting for the last playoff spot. they are weak in net - budaj has stepped up and done his best but he isnt enough to carry the team on his back. next year will be better, sometimes you just have to step back and accept. this is the life of an average hockey team.
I think Rock's point was not so much in the proof of Lou's cheating but the stigma surrounding it. It's a common conception (whether its a misconception or not).

It's speculative and developed it's own lore in NHL fan circles.

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03-16-2007, 06:09 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Roman Tanner View Post
I think Rock's point was not so much in the proof of Lou's cheating but the stigma surrounding it. It's a common conception (whether its a misconception or not).

It's speculative and developed it's own lore in NHL fan circles.
I think a lot of it stems from Lou being a proponent of the unblanaced schedule which everyone hates.

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03-16-2007, 06:13 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ABasin View Post
I agree that they weren't identical, but if you go back one more year - to right after the new CBA was signed - I think the teams all had a similar situation:

- They were all long term successful teams.
- They were all up against the Cap and had to let players go who they wanted to keep.
- They all had to sign/add UFAs/cheaper players to replace the stars.
- They all had to play young/developing players to fill roster spots.
- They all managed to keep a couple of superstar players, although they chose different positions (NJ chose goal and forward, the Avs chose defense and forward, the Wings chose defense and well, defense).

Now, here we sit almost exactly two years later, and let's compare the three front offices in total: Who did the best, and who did the worst? Not just this past year, but in the past two?

-AB
Short of going through player by player, (which would be an interesting exercise, but not one I feel like billing my company for), my perception of the three teams immediately pre and post CBA is that the Avs were a number of high salaries coupled with a number of low salaries, whereas Detroit and New Jersey had a more rounded distribution. Thus upon cutting salary, the pieces the Avs had to cut were more substantial to the makeup of the team. This along with some unfortunate timing of free agencies and fortunate buyout opportunities developed an advantageous cap situation for the other two teams over Colorado.

Now if you go retroactively compare, where the Avs had a few useless FA's the Devils and the Wings may have fared better. However, Colorado is younger with more future cap space and superior draft classes in that time.

Moreover, as I've breezed over 3 years of transactions, there's really need for another comment here.

How many "Best Goalies Ever" did Detroit and New Jersey hang to the rafters in this span?

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03-16-2007, 06:20 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Hasbro View Post
It means those with agendas tend to exagerate the situation.
I hope you didn't pull a hamstring dodging the question.

-AB

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03-16-2007, 06:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Jori View Post
Taking in both years, the Avs did the worst. Yet, will Detroit be drastically ahead if they flame out in the first round again? I'd definately put New Jersey ahead of both Colorado and Detroit.
I agree completely with the assessment. It could be that NJ is the only one of the teams who could have, and decided to, keep the player at the most important position. For example, if the Avs had a 33-year-old Patrick Roy, I suspect Blake wouldn't have been signed after the CBA was signed.

And as for Detroit, if the Avs don't make the playoffs, then yes - Detroit has handled the situation better, even if they flame out in round 1 again.

So, back to the main point, given this discussion, was Kreiger's article really so out of line?

-AB

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03-16-2007, 06:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Roman Tanner View Post
Short of going through player by player, (which would be an interesting exercise, but not one I feel like billing my company for), my perception of the three teams immediately pre and post CBA is that the Avs were a number of high salaries coupled with a number of low salaries, whereas Detroit and New Jersey had a more rounded distribution. Thus upon cutting salary, the pieces the Avs had to cut were more substantial to the makeup of the team. This along with some unfortunate timing of free agencies and fortunate buyout opportunities developed an advantageous cap situation for the other two teams over Colorado.

Now if you go retroactively compare, where the Avs had a few useless FA's the Devils and the Wings may have fared better. However, Colorado is younger with more future cap space and superior draft classes in that time.

Moreover, as I've breezed over 3 years of transactions, there's really need for another comment here.

How many "Best Goalies Ever" did Detroit and New Jersey hang to the rafters in this span?
I don't see the Avs having very much of a different situation than the other two teams, in terms of players and salaries. Detroit bought out Hatcher due to the Cap. The Avs said goodbye to Forsberg and Foote. The Devils said goodbye to Scott Niedermayer (and Scott Stevens, for a different reason), who is the best player of the bunch.

The Avs have done crummy with FAs so far, while the other two teams have done OK. The Avs have done very well in developing the young guys, the Devs have done pretty well here, too. Not so much for the Wings.

I'm no Krieger fan, but his article was fairly accurate, I thought. A bit tough on FG, but fairly accurate.

-AB

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03-16-2007, 06:33 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Jori View Post
Giguere made the best of his bad situation as well. Comparing to New Jersey and Detroit is fine if they have identical problems, they didn't. That's my problem with Krieger's column.
I agree about Giguere... or at least I'm willing to give him a fair chance. There have been criticisms that he hasn't done enough to improve the roster but without knowing what he would have had to give up to do so, I can't agree with those.

My criticism was directed at Lacroix. I'm not defending Kreiger's column, but I do think there is a reasonable comparison to be made between what Jersey and Detroit did right after the cap was instituted, if only because they did not do anything to make their situation worse, while the Avs (Lacroix) did. I don't think there is anything unique about the Avs situation that forced him into some of the errors he made. If you look at the bad hand Giguere has been dealt, point by point, most, if not all of them, can be traced to mistakes Lacroix made after the cap was in place.

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03-16-2007, 06:42 PM
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In all honesty, the bonuses are a 5 million dollar player and were a very difficult hit, but in terms of being a bad decision I'm just not sure it was so cut and dry.

By dropping the options they lowered their salary in that year.

The gamble which was required to make a pitch at Theo.

This is still ultimately what it comes down to when coining the term "bad decisions" by Pierre. (Patrice and Pierre are minor in the scope of this 11 million dollar swing) It was a gamble. He lost. But, I'd do it again. Because what Pierre understood is that an elite goalie can make up for nearly everything. He learned that firsthand. The move was correct but the player assessment was not.

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03-16-2007, 06:47 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by ABasin View Post
I hope you didn't pull a hamstring dodging the question.

-AB
It's not all that bad now is it?

The Devils and Wings didn't exactly launch dynasties and I can think of teams that had an even worse transition (namely the Blues and Flyers)

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03-16-2007, 06:59 PM
  #69
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Just to gain a little perspective on the season immediately before the lockout.
Here are players in the top 250 in salary from the three teams in question.
Average salary of a player meeting this cutoff shown in brackets.

The point being that when Colorado was more top end salary loaded making it more difficult to keep the core intact.

Also, look closely at what Detroit was able to unload. If anything, they just got very very lucky with the buyout clause in the CBA. They were hampered by some ridiculous overpayments and would very likely have been in some real trouble if they couldn't have squeezed out from under them. For Detroit, the lockout was almost a blessing. Colorado didn't pay for garbage. They paid for elite talent and thus when they lost their pieces, they were losing pieces more integral to the puzzle.


COLORADO (Ave= 6.1 million)
Forsberg, Peter COLORADO AVALANCHE C $11,000,000.00
Sakic, Joe COLORADO AVALANCHE C $9,880,939.00
Blake, Robert COLORADO AVALANCHE D $9,326,519.00
Selanne, Teemu COLORADO AVALANCHE R $5,800,000.00
Foote, Adam COLORADO AVALANCHE D $4,300,000.00
Morris, Derek COLORADO AVALANCHE D $3,500,000.00
Hejduk, Milan COLORADO AVALANCHE R $3,200,000.00
Nikolishin, Andrei COLORADO AVALANCHE C $1,750,000.00

DETROIT (Ave=4.9 million)
Lidstrom, Nicklas DETROIT RED WINGS D $10,000,000.00
Joseph, Curtis DETROIT RED WINGS G $8,000,000.00
Shanahan, Brendan DETROIT RED WINGS L $6,500,000.00
Hasek, Dominik DETROIT RED WINGS G $6,000,000.00
Chelios, Chris DETROIT RED WINGS D $5,936,286.00
Yzerman, Steve DETROIT RED WINGS C $5,849,823.00
Hatcher, Derian DETROIT RED WINGS D $5,000,000.00
Hull, Brett DETROIT RED WINGS R $5,000,000.00
Schneider, Mathieu DETROIT RED WINGS D $3,750,000.00
Whitney, Ray DETROIT RED WINGS L $3,000,000.00
McCarty, Darren DETROIT RED WINGS R $2,250,000.00
Maltby, Kirk DETROIT RED WINGS L $2,000,000.00
Devereaux, Boyd DETROIT RED WINGS L $1,600,000.00

NJD (Ave=3.6 million)
Stevens, Scott NEW JERSEY DEVILS D $6,916,747.25
Brodeur, Martin NEW JERSEY DEVILS G $6,891,103.13
Elias, Patrik NEW JERSEY DEVILS R $4,722,249.09
Niedermayer, Scott NEW JERSEY DEVILS D $4,000,000.00
Friesen, Jeff NEW JERSEY DEVILS L $3,000,000.00
Rafalski, Brian NEW JERSEY DEVILS D $3,000,000.00
White, John Colin NEW JERSEY DEVILS D $2,250,000.00
Langenbrunner, Jamie NEW JERSEY DEVILS R $2,077,799.27
Madden, John NEW JERSEY DEVILS C $2,000,000.00
Marshall, Grant NEW JERSEY DEVILS R $1,600,000.00

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03-16-2007, 07:07 PM
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I read my post and it feels like I'm making excuses.

That's really not my goal. Krieger's article is not out of line, it's simply from a different line of perspective then my own.

And I suppose what's frustrating is the casual fan would read it and perpetuate the ideas, without ever really understanding the true complexity of the situation.

Then it becomes common semantics and is parlayed across sports talk and all the while, there are some major points being grazed over.

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03-16-2007, 07:13 PM
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roman Tanner View Post
I read my post and it feels like I'm making excuses.

That's really not my goal. Krieger's article is not out of line, it's simply from a different line of perspective then my own.

And I suppose what's frustrating is the casual fan would read it and perpetuate the ideas, without ever really understanding the true complexity of the situation.

Then it becomes common semantics and is parlayed across sports talk and all the while, there are some major points being grazed over.
You pretty much echo my sentiments.

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03-16-2007, 07:14 PM
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In all honesty, the bonuses are a 5 million dollar player and were a very difficult hit, but in terms of being a bad decision I'm just not sure it was so cut and dry.

By dropping the options they lowered their salary in that year.

The gamble which was required to make a pitch at Theo.

This is still ultimately what it comes down to when coining the term "bad decisions" by Pierre. (Patrice and Pierre are minor in the scope of this 11 million dollar swing) It was a gamble. He lost. But, I'd do it again. Because what Pierre understood is that an elite goalie can make up for nearly everything. He learned that firsthand. The move was correct but the player assessment was not.
Well, you could probably look at a lot of bad decisions made by a GM and say "the move was correct but the player assessment was not." Hell, Brisebois and Turgeon... a mobile defensemen and a second line center. The moves were correct but the player assessment was not. Obvioulsy making a move for an elite goalie is something you gotta do when you have the chance, but it's not as though it's a shock that Theo has turned out to be less than elite.

As for the bonuses, if I recall the cap relief declining the options created was somewhat negligible. Especially when compared to the 4.6 million cap hit it would create the following season... which is why I've always felt he just didn't do his research before declining the bonuses. The fact that the cap relief from last season was used to land Theo only amplifies the mistakes.

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03-16-2007, 07:58 PM
  #73
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It's not all that bad now is it?

The Devils and Wings didn't exactly launch dynasties and I can think of teams that had an even worse transition (namely the Blues and Flyers)
I didn't say the sky has fallen. I simply asked how we did compared to those two teams (which Krieger brought up in his article). And while it's not terrible, it's certainly not very good either.

Since Krieger didn't bring up the Blues, nor the Flyers, I didn't ask about them.

-AB

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03-16-2007, 08:18 PM
  #74
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There is not enough duct-tape in the world to keep my head from exploding right now. Geez....

I'm still upset we could get rid of Theo and Brisbois...I actually liked and was rooting for Turgeon to have a good season this year...my bad there.

That being said, there have been two years in row where we could have had money to spend based on Kono's injuries. You can all say it was an honor to keep him on the payroll till the cows come home. The fact remains...there was money to be used. It could've come in the form of a signing or trade last season or it could've come at any point after he "retired" this year. I respect the team for what they did...but there was still money left on the table and to be honest I think we still have money sitting on the table this moment. I'm not sure what unsigned player is out there that I'd actually want but we still have money in excess of 1M on our cap at this moment, yes or no? If no than I will gladly eat humble pie...The math is quickly involving more than my Navy nuclear power training school gave me because it involves lawyer speak and not actual mathematical symbols I can comprehend. GROWL.

I'm just going to shut up and enjoy watching the AVs play. It is what I do best.

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03-17-2007, 01:33 AM
  #75
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Hindsight is 20/20. The know it alls always come out AFTER the fact, yet never before. It's easy to decide the best way to do something when the moment is past. It's even easier to be the guy to write about the flaws of others, when they themselves are safe from scrutiny. FG did the best with what he was given. He's not even been on the job for a whole year. This article is premature.

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