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Fire MacLean!!

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Old
12-15-2003, 04:18 AM
  #26
MephistoIV
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Ozzie X
A rumor going around was that the Caps were willing to offer Oullet and a whole lot of other stuff (picks and such), to the Thrashers to pick Nash. Nash was very sought ever (and you can see why now), there's no way you can't say Atlanta wouldn't have traded down from their position and let someone else pick Nash.

We've beaten this trade to death. Dudley gave Atlanta picks in assurnce that they wouldn't trade down or take J-Bo. Dudley won the '03 lottery on one of his ping pong balls, so the other part of the deal didn't matter. Columbus got Nash for FREE.

Exactly. Maclean has not made any bad trades.

Marshall a BAD trade??? I think not. Marshall is horrible and overpaid. He played well in NJ due to his supporting cast. He has ONE goal so far.. hes horrible...

hes never made a bad trade for us

Daryl is an amazing guy, even if hes not the most defensive defenseman he ALWAYS gives hi all and is one of our best for holding leads.

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Old
12-15-2003, 04:26 AM
  #27
DJAnimosity
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MephistoIV
Marshall a BAD trade??? I think not. Marshall is horrible and overpaid. He played well in NJ due to his supporting cast. He has ONE goal so far.. hes horrible...
I think his argument is that we gave up a second-round pick to acquire Marshall.

I don't think that was a bad trade, however, as Marshall had some value at that point and did well for us for a couple years. It was only after he was proclaimed to be a "power forward" and placed on the second line that he became worthless, which really wasn't his fault at all.

I don't think anyone can argue that MacLean has made bad trades; the only goof up on his part was a trade he DIDN'T make--taking the second and fifth round picks that were offered at the trade deadline last year for Whitney; but, he probably thougt he could sign Whitney at that point, so I'm not too displeased.

It's hard to argue against a guy who got picks from:

--Jamie Pushor (who's obviously back, so we got a fourth-rounder for nothing here)
--Frantisek Kucera
--Petr Tenkrat
--Grant Marshall
--Lyle Odelein (plus Spacek, of course)
--Mattias Timander

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Old
12-15-2003, 04:51 AM
  #28
KallioWeHardlyKnewYe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jackets63
Correct me if Im wrong, but the only long term injury I remember in year 1 was to Oliwa. Might have something to do with it.
I believe that is true. The team also got some stellar play from Tugnutt, so those are obviously two big reasons why that team had its success. As a fan looking at rosters that was this franchise's worst team -- easy. The teams of the last two years should have been better. Playoff caliber? Probably not, but definitely not last place in the west.

There's a couple other things I want to touch on while I'm rambling.

I'm in this for the long haul too. I think DM has done a good job as GM. Maybe with more time coaching, that'll improve too. We still haven't seen much of the results from the drafts yet. That'll start soon though as guys like Johnson, Jackman and Leclaire get closer to the pros. Hopefully that will help down the line.
I only hope the majority of the fans in Columbus will be patient.

The problem with this year's team is I can't pin down a problem to fix. Everyone not named Nash has been INCONSISTENT. Goalies are ubeatable one night, swiss cheese the next. The D, both when injured and not, has been the same way. Offensively, everytime we get to 3+ goals, we somehow manage to give up more. Everytime we give up two or less, the offense scores the same or less.

Also, as to the Tugnutt trade. If I recall correctly, the 20th pick was traded down to the 30th + Pandolfo, then that was traded down to 41. So, for Tugnutt, they picked up the rights to Pandolfo, Lindstrom (who they could have gotten at 33) and one or two extra picks, on top of saving money. I don't think that was such a bad deal.


Last edited by KallioWeHardlyKnewYe: 12-15-2003 at 04:56 AM.
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Old
12-15-2003, 07:02 AM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DJAnimosity
I don't think anyone can argue that MacLean has made bad trades; the only goof up on his part was a trade he DIDN'T make--taking the second and fifth round picks that were offered at the trade deadline last year for Whitney...
I agree that MacLean has made few bad trades,

But I think he has made some very bad decisions on key issues. If we're going to talk about the early days, let's closely examine the decision to build this team around Marc Denis as our "goalie of the future" from Day 1. We only gave up a second-rounder, and didn't miss out on anybody earth-shaking as a result, so it wasn't a "bad trade" per se.

But that was the reason DM had to trade Tugnutt, and the reason he gave up two choices (a fourth and a ninth) for Chris Nielsen (which I thought was overpaying at the time, and I still do). And the reason we didn't draft a high-end goalie prospect until Leclaire. And, if rumors are true, the reason we took Leclaire over Blackburn (which may or may not have been a mistake).

But for me the bottom line is: the problem with this team is not talent!

To use injuries as an excuse for not equalling the record of our first season is unrealistic. Any of our d-men playing right now - Walser, Rohloff, Ericksson - would have been absolute mainstays on that first team. (Remember Timmander? Nummelin?) Heck, Pushor was a mainstay on that team! We won't even mention the forwards!

The success in our first season was based on two things. Everybody worked their butts off every night, and Ron Tugnutt stole at least half a dozen games for us in goal.

Our subsequent failure to live up to that, despite vastly improved talent (Nash, Sydor, Marchant, Cassels, Spacek, Richardson, etc., etc.) makes me believe we have problems with leadership, motivation, and organization.

This is why I am gradually coming to believe it is time for a total restructuring of our management.

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Old
12-15-2003, 07:14 AM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TBJF

The success in our first season was based on two things. Everybody worked their butts off every night, and Ron Tugnutt stole at least half a dozen games for us in goal.

Our subsequent failure to live up to that, despite vastly improved talent (Nash, Sydor, Marchant, Cassels, Spacek, Richardson, etc., etc.) makes me believe we have problems with leadership, motivation, and organization.

This is why I am gradually coming to believe it is time for a total restructuring of our management.
I also think that a key to our success in our first season was simply that, it was our first season. Nobody expects anything from anyone, nobody expects you to win so the players can just go out and have fun, if they lose who cares that is to be expected. That isn't the atmosphere anymore, we've brought in players and are Expected to have results. I think the person that epitomizes this is Sanderson. The guy will go out and play when he has confidence. When he feels pressure from expectations he amounts to a faster David Ling. Growing Pains.

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Old
12-15-2003, 08:16 AM
  #31
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DM is going to be the head coach for a while...reason is the CBA.

I think management really believes there is going to be a long work stoppage. Why pay a coach to do nothing next season? And if you don’t think there will be a work stoppage next year, go back and read the Sanderson quote from the beginning of the season. Here’s Sandy, by all accounts a good and level headed guy, saying (paraphrasing by memory here) there is no way the union will agree to a salary cap.

Now, if that’s what Sandy is saying, what do you think some of the more outspoken players are saying? According to a story I read on TSN.com a few weeks ago, Jeremy Roenick already has a deal to play in Germany..the same team he played for in the last strike.

No new coach until the CBA is settled…sometime in 2005!

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Old
12-15-2003, 04:53 PM
  #32
KeithBWhittington
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Fire...as Coach...

Anybody else getting these continuing road results after 2 and a half years of trying to correct them needs to be relinquished. I mean supremely confident MacLean can bring us to the playoffs...as a GM and President...Not a Coach..

Their are a few coaches that have been mentioned here in the last year or so... A few that stick out, Brian Skrudland, Todd McLellan (Houston Areos, thanks Sam for mentioning this guy), Gary Agnew? Of Course my first choice, Larry Robinson. Lets add Paul Maurice and Bruce Cassidy to that list too... Their are a slew of them out there, Doug behind the Bench wasn't the answer last year (results the same as with King the first half of the year...) And obviously The Prez-GM behind the bench isn't moving the guys any faster or have them anymore concerned about their jobs here.

The Sad part is, if the road stays the same the second half of the season, then DM will be fired...not only as coach, but gm as well...I would hate to see that, considering what a talented team he has assembled in the last four years....

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Old
12-17-2003, 12:18 PM
  #33
Del Griffith
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3mta3
Firing MacLean as coach is preposterous.

Name one coach that would have prevented the injuries that have cripped the team throughout the season.

When your defense is missing 4 of the top 6, you will allow goals that should have been prevented, you'll miss the transition, you'll feel it all across the ice.

Nash is playing wonderful in a Sophomore Slump season with a diminished supporting cast. Zherdev is a delight to watch. Brathwaite has added some drama to the dressing room. Malhotra is showing that he's capable of great things. Vyborny continues to be great, even when he's not scoring in buckets. And so on and so on.

I'm glad you all think we should be in the playoffs and are supporting the team, but calling for MacLean's head is foolish. This season has signs for the future like no other and we're talking about how we should change it all up for now.

Sorry, but I'm in this for the long haul. I want to see a team built that can perform well in the long haul. I've followed the game, I've seen what it takes. I can only imagine what you would all be saying during the Dead Things era.
Amen, Bro.

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Old
12-17-2003, 08:22 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Ozzie X
A rumor going around was that the Caps were willing to offer Oullet and a whole lot of other stuff (picks and such), to the Thrashers to pick Nash. Nash was very sought ever (and you can see why now), there's no way you can't say Atlanta wouldn't have traded down from their position and let someone else pick Nash.

We've beaten this trade to death. Dudley gave Atlanta picks in assurnce that they wouldn't trade down or take J-Bo. Dudley won the '03 lottery on one of his ping pong balls, so the other part of the deal didn't matter. Columbus got Nash for FREE.
Maxime Ouellet looks to be like a guy who will be a starter in this league but Kari Lehtonen is tagged as a premier Future franchise goaltender. Atlanta's GM Don Waddell had numerous offers too when they won the lottery for the #1 overall pick in 2001 and were actively shopping for a deal to get better but instead chose to keep it and that #1 overall pick ended up being Ilya Kovalchuk so I think its a safe bet that they learned their lesson and wouldn't have traded the #2 overall pick in 2002 to move down for a lesser rated prospect and some extra picks. Nash is a great player but great goaltending wins you championships and I think Atlanta would have chosen Lehtonen no matter what since they wanted a franchise goaltender and knew Columbus and Florida already had that in Denis and Luongo so Waddell basically just played head games w/ Maclean and Dudley forcing Maclean to not take any chances and trade up and Dudley to not take any chances and secure Bouwmeester.

It almost worked for Dudley, I would have gladly given up those Atlanta picks had Florida been in the playoffs and then switched up with Columbus but I guess Dudley did not know what kind of financial money troubles he would be getting into (or power struggles with Keenan for that matter) when he joined on during that offseason and the owners did not invest *ANY* $$$ into the team for a playoff run when we looked to be right in the thick of it with the Bruins, Islanders, Rangers, and Canadiens for those last 2 playoff spots and in fact did the opposite of spending to prepare for the upcoming labor war (CBA) so they had to trade off one of Florida's most expensive offensive vets in Sandis Ozolinsh (sure helped the Ducks playoff run LOL) before the All-Star Break and didn't replace his role until March by signing Igor Kravchuk (he played 0 NHL games and no training camp that season prior to signing ). Maclean on the other hand spent a lot of money on vets before the start of the season to prevent any "flip-flopping" of picks from happening and go for your own playoff run but both teams ended up doing what they had not envisioned and finished at the bottom of the cellar.

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Old
12-20-2003, 12:12 PM
  #35
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I say keep and keep.

IMO, DM the GM is a no-brainer. Shrewd trader, and a good judge of young talent.

I think DM the GM trying to coach is asking/expecting too much from one person, over the long haul. But from what they've said, this was Mr. McConnell's decision---not to attemt to bring in a new coach heading into the CBA mess. So, if that's what Mr. McConnell wants,....

I don't think we'll lose DM the GM because of the performance of the team under DM the coach---I trust that Mr. McConnell is too level-headed for that. He wants to wait for the CBA situation to sort itself out before bringing in a new coach; fine by me.

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