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Old
03-21-2007, 05:36 PM
  #51
Digger12
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Originally Posted by Ogopogo View Post
You could take a few minutes and look it up yourself. Crosby, Ovechkin, Heatley, Spezza, Malkin, Kovalchuk, Thornton, Kariya, Sakic, Jagr, Lindros...need I go on?

Clearly, Hemsky is a level below these players.
Crosby - 1st overall
Ovechkin - 1st overall
Heatley - 2nd overall
Spezza - 2nd overall
Malkin - 2nd overall
Kovalchuk - 1st overall
Thornton - 1st overall
Kariya - 4th overall
Sakic - 15th overall (drafted 20 years ago, totall different offensive era)
Jagr - 5th overall (started career with a prime Mario Lemieux)
Lindros - 1st overall

Hemsky a level below these players? Gee, considering where we drafted him that is a TOTAL shock.

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Old
03-21-2007, 05:38 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by PDO View Post
Reputations mean jack squat; especially when considering sports writers who couldn't tell a puck from a blueline.
ok... if reputations dont count, then what does?

his stats look pretty good as far as +/- goes, ha plays for the *devils* and he has a reputation for being good defensively.... im not sure what else you need for proof

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03-21-2007, 05:40 PM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogopogo View Post
????????????????

The reason I listed those particular players is because they all had better seasons at age 22 than did Hemsky. Better seasons at age 23 as well.
Sorry for misunderstanding your point...

Still though, you can mention Hemsky in the same breath as those guys and he's been injury plagued this year. He was driving his own line for quite a while and made Sykora look like a superstar until his first injury.

Right now Hemsky is a huge difference maker on the PP and his ES is slowly rounding into shape. The fact remains that he's only 23 and has accomplished more in a few years in the NHL than many do over an entire career.

There's a ton of guys who Hemsky compares with very favourably who went on to have long, successful careers as Stars. Or even a few that are just in their prime now...

Hossa, Lecavalier, Jokinen, Sedin 1, Sedin 2, Tanguay, Iginla, Marleau, Smyth, Koivu, Rolston, Naslund..

etc.

I don't see how you can possibly say a 23 year old who:

- Has led his team in scoring, and would have led his team in scoring for two consecutive seasons if not for being injured.

- Has proven competent in his own zone.

- Has heart.

- Can dominate a PP.

- Has pedigree and is living up to said pedigree.

Is not a star. It just doesn't make any sense.

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Old
03-21-2007, 05:41 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Digger12 View Post
Crosby - 1st overall
Ovechkin - 1st overall
Heatley - 2nd overall
Spezza - 2nd overall
Malkin - 2nd overall
Kovalchuk - 1st overall
Thornton - 1st overall
Kariya - 4th overall
Sakic - 15th overall (drafted 20 years ago, totall different offensive era)
Jagr - 5th overall (started career with a prime Mario Lemieux)
Lindros - 1st overall

Hemsky a level below these players? Gee, considering where we drafted him that is a TOTAL shock.
There is not much reasoning that will get through to the irrational hate on pogo has for Hemsky.

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Old
03-21-2007, 05:42 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by jadeddog View Post
ok... if reputations dont count, then what does?

his stats look pretty good as far as +/- goes, ha plays for the *devils* and he has a reputation for being good defensively.... im not sure what else you need for proof
Well, for one the numbers show him consistently doing it against weak opposition (which makes sense given that Madden and Pandolofo play for the Devils). For two, Petr Sykora came from the Devils, and I don't see anyone bandying about his defense . For three, there's a lot of mixed reports on him, and given the way he's utilized it's hard to believe he could put up numbers if he wasn't completely sheltered.

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Old
03-21-2007, 06:26 PM
  #56
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What's the point of having two of the best playmakers in the league (Gomez and Hemsky) and yet not even one player who's proven to be a consistent finisher and goal scoring threat.

Would I like to have Gomez? Sure, who wouldn't?
Is it the best use of our resources given the current make up of the team? I really don't think it is.

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Old
03-21-2007, 06:30 PM
  #57
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Gomez ?

I don't think is someone we should covet. A number 1 defenceman is someone we need to move the puck up to our forwards. When watching the Oiler's they rarely got any odd man rushes and the powerplay was horrible.

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03-21-2007, 06:46 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by FacelessButcher View Post
What's the point of having two of the best playmakers in the league (Gomez and Hemsky) and yet not even one player who's proven to be a consistent finisher and goal scoring threat.

Would I like to have Gomez? Sure, who wouldn't?
Is it the best use of our resources given the current make up of the team? I really don't think it is.
You're obviously in the "let's right off Torres, Lupul, Sykora Pisani and Stoll" fan club because these are the guys with the shots that benefit from playing with guys like Gomez and Hemsky. 5 players with great shots and think shot first. We need another playmaker, if Nilsson pans out then that's great, we'll have 3 of them, we could always deal one if it gets crowded. 1 reason our offense was so bad this season was because we didn't have a d-man with a breakout pass or that could QB the PP like Pronger could(that's another reason as to why Redden is a must have), but another big reason for the lack of offensive output was because we had all these guys that a shoot first players and only 1 playmaker for them all.

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Old
03-21-2007, 08:11 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Ari Gold View Post
Is he the guy we will most covet? I believe so. I believe Gomez would be the type of guy willing to sign here. I could be mistaken about this but I believe I've heard the Oilers were his favourite team growing up, being from Anchorage I don't think the cold weather would scare him off, on our side of it he plays a Mac T sort of game as he can play both ways very effectivly, he is a true playmaker in the middle which is something we don't have at this moment(Pouliot is getting there), and could be the type of player that would be worthy of something along the lines of 5 yr/30 mil contract. If we could land him, it would set our lines a lot better next year then this year, as we would have Lupul with that setup man he so desperatly needs.
1)He will sign in NJ

2)Another set up man

3)Oilers have enough down the middle

4)money needs to be spent on d first

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Old
03-21-2007, 08:46 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by graveyardshift View Post
1)He will sign in NJ

2)Another set up man

3)Oilers have enough down the middle

4)money needs to be spent on d first
agree on all points.... i like gomez, and would be happy if we could get him.... i also think that hes wroth more than smyth is.... all that being said, we need help on D and thats where we should be spending money.... if we get a true 1/2 defenceman to play with smith on the top pairing, it changes our entire team

also, im of the opinion that the % chance of almost every forward on the team having another *terrible* year is rather small.... this year we had horcoff, stoll, lupul, torres, hemsky, moreau, pisani, and reasoner all have worst years this year than last.... thats essentially every forward on the team having a bad year (outside of smyth, who was having a career year).... the probability of this happening again next year is rather remote, especially considering that the average age of the players i just mentioned is roughly 25 years old

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Old
03-21-2007, 09:06 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by graveyardshift View Post
1)He will sign in NJ

2)Another set up man

3)Oilers have enough down the middle

4)money needs to be spent on d first
1) Why? They have Parise there ready to take his role if need be, they have a guy up front already making 6 mil a season and other then Elias and Brodeur(cornerstones)they don't keep there guys around.

2) Another????????? Hemsky and who exactly? Nilsson? Could be, I wouldn't trust him yet. Pouliot? Doesn't look like he'll be an elite setup guy in this league, could be but not next season. Horcoff? He has yet to prove that he can carry a line without Smyth and Hemsky playing along side him.

3) True, but why can't we use some of that for trade bait?

4) Who said it didn't? Why is it that about 80% of this board doesn't want to wake up a realize that we have needs other then our blueline? Obviously the blueline needs a major upgrade. But why is it that we MUST go into next season with a hole in our lineup? That hole would be that of a go to offensive guy. Lupul can't get there without a playmaker and Hemsky can't do it on his own. Gomez would complete our offense.

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Old
03-21-2007, 09:10 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by jadeddog View Post
also, im of the opinion that the % chance of almost every forward on the team having another *terrible* year is rather small.... this year we had horcoff, stoll, lupul, torres, hemsky, moreau, pisani, and reasoner all have worst years this year than last.... thats essentially every forward on the team having a bad year (outside of smyth, who was having a career year).... the probability of this happening again next year is rather remote, especially considering that the average age of the players i just mentioned is roughly 25 years old
Don't you think that all those guys you named(only one of who is a legit setup man)are having off years because of the lack of a guy like Gomez? Lupul, Torres, Stoll, Pisani, Sykora, and even Horcoff need to have setup guys playing with them. Look at how Hemsky's line was ALWAYS the best offensive line out there this year and we could never get the right 2nd unit. A large reason for this was because all those shooters didn't have a great playmaker like Gomez. It is a need. As important as the blueline? Obviously no. But a hole that needs to be filled on this team? Very much so.

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03-21-2007, 09:14 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by PDO View Post
Sorry for misunderstanding your point...

Still though, you can mention Hemsky in the same breath as those guys and he's been injury plagued this year. He was driving his own line for quite a while and made Sykora look like a superstar until his first injury.

Right now Hemsky is a huge difference maker on the PP and his ES is slowly rounding into shape. The fact remains that he's only 23 and has accomplished more in a few years in the NHL than many do over an entire career.

There's a ton of guys who Hemsky compares with very favourably who went on to have long, successful careers as Stars. Or even a few that are just in their prime now...

Hossa, Lecavalier, Jokinen, Sedin 1, Sedin 2, Tanguay, Iginla, Marleau, Smyth, Koivu, Rolston, Naslund..

etc.

I don't see how you can possibly say a 23 year old who:

- Has led his team in scoring, and would have led his team in scoring for two consecutive seasons if not for being injured.

- Has proven competent in his own zone.

- Has heart.

- Can dominate a PP.

- Has pedigree and is living up to said pedigree.

Is not a star. It just doesn't make any sense.
Easy.

An offensive player that does not average a point per game is not a star.

A player that gives the puck away as much as Hemsky is not a star.

Is he a good player? Yes. Is he a star player? No. Time will tell if he ever develops into a star.

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Old
03-21-2007, 09:16 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Digger12 View Post
Crosby - 1st overall
Ovechkin - 1st overall
Heatley - 2nd overall
Spezza - 2nd overall
Malkin - 2nd overall
Kovalchuk - 1st overall
Thornton - 1st overall
Kariya - 4th overall
Sakic - 15th overall (drafted 20 years ago, totall different offensive era)
Jagr - 5th overall (started career with a prime Mario Lemieux)
Lindros - 1st overall

Hemsky a level below these players? Gee, considering where we drafted him that is a TOTAL shock.
Your argument is "You can't compare Hemsky to these guys because...they are better"!?! Are you kidding me?

If you can't compare Hemksy to stars in this league, guess what, he's not a star in the league. People like to talk about him like he's the Messiah. Not the case.

Hemsky is a good player but he has a long way to go before he can be mentioned with those listed above.

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Old
03-21-2007, 09:51 PM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogopogo View Post
Your argument is "You can't compare Hemsky to these guys because...they are better"!?! Are you kidding me?

If you can't compare Hemksy to stars in this league, guess what, he's not a star in the league. People like to talk about him like he's the Messiah. Not the case.

Hemsky is a good player but he has a long way to go before he can be mentioned with those listed above.
Those players will also get paid alot more than Hemsky's 4.5 as a UFA. The problem I think is with Edmonton's mindset of somehow thinking 4.5 is what a UFA star earns. Hemsky is not a star, he wasn't drafted in the top 3, he's not being paid like a star, so why do people think he should be dominating like a star?

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03-21-2007, 09:54 PM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogopogo View Post
Your argument is "You can't compare Hemsky to these guys because...they are better"!?! Are you kidding me?

If you can't compare Hemksy to stars in this league, guess what, he's not a star in the league. People like to talk about him like he's the Messiah. Not the case.

Hemsky is a good player but he has a long way to go before he can be mentioned with those listed above.
Well in fairness I believe you're both right. What Digger is saying is that MOST of that list was expected to step in and be the players that they were, where's Hemsky wasn't but he's close and probably will be near there level his entire career. But you're right too....he's not there yet. It's not like you're hoping he won't get there either.

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03-21-2007, 09:58 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by oil slick View Post
Those players will also get paid alot more than Hemsky's 4.5 as a UFA. The problem I think is with Edmonton's mindset of somehow thinking 4.5 is what a UFA star earns. Hemsky is not a star, he wasn't drafted in the top 3, he's not being paid like a star, so why do people think he should be dominating like a star?
Because the skill set is there

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03-21-2007, 10:02 PM
  #68
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Because the skill set is there
Oh - I think he could become a star player... no doubt in my mind. But I don't see why some (I've not really been paying attention to this thread... maybe noone here) seem to be almost angry at his performance, which is a little baffling to me, since it kind of implies they think he should be a star, right now...

I also think people ragging on players is a little bit of an issue with Edmonton fans (well, not particular to Edmonton I guess... in any market that is passionate about a sport), because I think it actually hurts the team if it becomes too vehement.

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03-21-2007, 10:20 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by Ari Gold View Post
You're obviously in the "let's right off Torres, Lupul, Sykora Pisani and Stoll" fan club because these are the guys with the shots that benefit from playing with guys like Gomez and Hemsky. 5 players with great shots and think shot first. We need another playmaker, if Nilsson pans out then that's great, we'll have 3 of them, we could always deal one if it gets crowded. 1 reason our offense was so bad this season was because we didn't have a d-man with a breakout pass or that could QB the PP like Pronger could(that's another reason as to why Redden is a must have), but another big reason for the lack of offensive output was because we had all these guys that a shoot first players and only 1 playmaker for them all.
No I peg Torres - Stoll - Pisani as our second line Sykora isn't signed for next year so I am righting him off until he is, and Lupul well I just don't know what to think about him right now. Hemmer doesn't shoot enough in the right spots for me to ever rely on him to score consistently, the man isn't even in the double digits for goals. Plus I still see Horcoff in our long term plans so I really don't see the huge need for Gomez we have a clearly identifiable area of weakness on D in both top end and overall quality, we need to fix the most glaring weaknesses first and then re-assess our situation from there.

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03-21-2007, 10:25 PM
  #70
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A Gomez type isn't what we need. A Briere is what we need.

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03-21-2007, 11:38 PM
  #71
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A Gomez type isn't what we need. A Briere is what we need.
Uhhhh I'm a BIG Briere fan, but how does he bring more to the table?

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03-21-2007, 11:40 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by FacelessButcher View Post
No I peg Torres - Stoll - Pisani as our second line Sykora isn't signed for next year so I am righting him off until he is, and Lupul well I just don't know what to think about him right now. Hemmer doesn't shoot enough in the right spots for me to ever rely on him to score consistently, the man isn't even in the double digits for goals. Plus I still see Horcoff in our long term plans so I really don't see the huge need for Gomez we have a clearly identifiable area of weakness on D in both top end and overall quality, we need to fix the most glaring weaknesses first and then re-assess our situation from there.
Why is it WRONG to discuss upgrading other areas of our team that aren't our number 1 weakness, espically when our offense is ranked 29th in hockey??? Torres - Stoll - Pisani is our 2nd LINE??? Ouch, not looking good for next season!

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03-22-2007, 12:02 AM
  #73
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Did I miss something here? I thought the Oilers were heading in a different direction. KLowe couldn't justify paying 'Franchise Player' dollars to Smyth. AGREED! Last time I checked, Scott Gomez was a good player--not a great player. (Where have I heard that before) We don't need another compliment player--what we need is a legitamate Gamebreaker. With the Oilers draft picks, depth on offence, and cap room, the Oilers are in a postion to sign the best "available" UFA. The post-CBA world is about side-stepping practicality and dreaming big!!!

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03-22-2007, 12:23 AM
  #74
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Did I miss something here? I thought the Oilers were heading in a different direction. KLowe couldn't justify paying 'Franchise Player' dollars to Smyth. AGREED! Last time I checked, Scott Gomez was a good player--not a great player. (Where have I heard that before) We don't need another compliment player--what we need is a legitamate Gamebreaker. With the Oilers draft picks, depth on offence, and cap room, the Oilers are in a postion to sign the best "available" UFA. The post-CBA world is about side-stepping practicality and dreaming big!!!
I know he's not the FAVOURITE UFA out there, but I'm not so certain that he's not the top UFA out there. And I'm saying this because I believe he's in a large group of guys that are either 1st line forwards but not "elite" forwards, number 1 d-men but aren't "elite" d-men, and a number 1 goaltender but not really an "elite" goaltender(although Giguere could prove that all wrong with a huge run this year). Gomez isn't WORSE then Drury, Briere, Smyth, Datsyuk, Kariya, Timmonen, Souray, Rafalski or Giguere as far as value goes. Plus, we should sign the best UFA availible, but you have to think best UFA availible to us, which is why Gomez MIGHT qualify as that guy. Also my belief is that while he may not be "elite", he would give us a balance up front that would be unmatched in the NHL, and he's good defensivly which our coach craves in his players(in particular his centre's). He's never played in a hockey market before(which some players crave despite what some observers think), he would be A LOT closer to home(not that he could ever get REALLY close to Anchorage), and he would be THE MAN with the Oilers.

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03-22-2007, 01:07 AM
  #75
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Uhhhh I'm a BIG Briere fan, but how does he bring more to the table?
Briere brings more in a lot of different areas. First, he is a way, way, waaaaaay better goal scorer than Gomez. That is no contest. From our NO 1 Center, we would need a guy capable of atleast 30+ goals. As of right now, Briere has 29 goals and 57 assists for 86 points and a plus 17. Gomez has 11 goals and 45 assists for 56 points and a +7. They are both playing with the same level of linemates, although many will argue that Gomez's linemates are better than Briere's. There is no question who I would take, and many others out there as well.

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