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Old
03-24-2007, 05:43 PM
  #1
DrDrai
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MA Bergeron?

ok I know there are a lot of people on both sides of this argument...but do you think the oilers misused him on the team and made a mistake trading him...he is 8th in goals by DMan with 13....29th in assists (27)....and 20th in points with a grand total of 40...IMO thats pretty decent for the money he is getting and his age....he is a -3 on the season, by no means am I excusing his numerous defensive blunders he had...although I do believe he wasn't paired with the right guys

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03-24-2007, 05:45 PM
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Cerebral
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Try doing a quick search for "Bergeron," I'm sure you'll find your answer if you do a little looking.

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03-24-2007, 06:00 PM
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Originally Posted by 240SX93 View Post
ok I know there are a lot of people on both sides of this argument...but do you think the oilers misused him on the team and made a mistake trading him...he is 8th in goals by DMan with 13....29th in assists (27)....and 20th in points with a grand total of 40...IMO thats pretty decent for the money he is getting and his age....he is a -3 on the season, by no means am I excusing his numerous defensive blunders he had...although I do believe he wasn't paired with the right guys
I thought I missed him a bit when Bryan Young played a regular shift. When Tom Gilbert came back, I realized I didn't miss him that much.

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03-24-2007, 06:21 PM
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Zach and Slater
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He was misused, but it wasn't anybody's fault. Mac T(who most on here know I'm anything but a supporter of the guy)had no other choice but to play him. MAB is a 6th d-man who should play soft minutes. He's capable of being the top 6th d-man in the NHL, but he should never be more then that. I think he's great on the PP, I think the way our PP is run is garbage(which I put directly on Simpson and Mac T).

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03-24-2007, 06:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Ari Gold View Post
He was misused, but it wasn't anybody's fault. Mac T(who most on here know I'm anything but a supporter of the guy)had no other choice but to play him. MAB is a 6th d-man who should play soft minutes. He's capable of being the top 6th d-man in the NHL, but he should never be more then that. I think he's great on the PP, I think the way our PP is run is garbage(which I put directly on Simpson and Mac T).
but in NY he is playing over 18mins a game and sometimes upto 25...maybe he thrives on more mins....he is a +6 in 15 games

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03-24-2007, 06:25 PM
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MAB's problem was the Oilers were trying to break in two rookies (and Hejda) so there were really 3 defensemen every night who couldn't play the tough minutes. Tjarnqvist, Staios and Smith were the NHL defensemen who could play against the good opposition and ideally Lowe would have signed another veteran like Markov for the top 4. Let MAB play with say Greene and Smid starts the season in the AHL (with Hejda as 7).

But it didn't happen.

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03-24-2007, 06:31 PM
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Could be a mistake.

Then again, the bigger mistake might be not trading MAB to Carolina for Jack Johnson when he was being shopped.

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Old
03-24-2007, 06:52 PM
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Have to say I'm suprised how well MAB is flourishing. Skeptical it would continue over the long-term, but still, the change of scenery has done Bergy well. His time as an Oiler was up. The only thing I wish is that NYI don't make the playoffs. I want a mid-range pick, and they are making it very difficult.

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03-24-2007, 06:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lowetide View Post
MAB's problem was the Oilers were trying to break in two rookies (and Hejda) so there were really 3 defensemen every night who couldn't play the tough minutes. Tjarnqvist, Staios and Smith were the NHL defensemen who could play against the good opposition and ideally Lowe would have signed another veteran like Markov for the top 4. Let MAB play with say Greene and Smid starts the season in the AHL (with Hejda as 7).

But it didn't happen.
Bingo.

Too many guys to break in the lineup this year that needed weak minutes. Bergeron was always a guy that could put up good numbers against weaker opposition but we needed to allocate those minutes to the kids. Tough position all around.

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03-24-2007, 07:06 PM
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Originally Posted by momentai View Post
Bingo.

Too many guys to break in the lineup this year that needed weak minutes. Bergeron was always a guy that could put up good numbers against weaker opposition but we needed to allocate those minutes to the kids. Tough position all around.
Here's my question in regards to this statement: Wasn't Bergeron getting sheltered all season anyway? MacTavish has had Smid playing fairly difficult minutes all season long, Bergeron played by far the easiest minutes this season amongst Edmonton blueliners and he still struggled defensively.

It's not like Bergeron was stuck out against the Thornton's and Iginla's of the world on a regular basis due to Edmonton's lack of defensive depth, he was getting fairly favorable matchups every night. The key difference this season was that Bergeron didn't get to play a veteran defensive partner on a nightly basis.

Bergeron was good at what he did but I'm glad we moved on and I'm hoping the guy we plunk into his spot in the lineup (big PP minutes, easy opposition every night) can develop into more than a third pairing guy who needs to be sheltered every night.

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03-24-2007, 07:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cerebral View Post
It's not like Bergeron was stuck out against the Thornton's and Iginla's of the world on a regular basis due to Edmonton's lack of defensive depth, he was getting fairly favorable matchups every night.
Bergeron was paired with Greene mostly. Which meant Greene was either misreading the play, giving the puck away, or taking a hooking penalty. Matt Greene had a bad, bad year. BAD.

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03-24-2007, 07:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lowetide View Post
Bergeron was paired with Greene mostly. Which meant Greene was either misreading the play, giving the puck away, or taking a hooking penalty. Matt Greene had a bad, bad year. BAD.
You're far too kind LT.

At this point, saying Greene had a bad year is like saying Joffrey Lupul had a decent year or Sidney Crosby had a good year .

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03-24-2007, 07:17 PM
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Agreed with the Greene thing. Greene + MAB was always terrible, it's a wonder Mac T always stuck with it (though this year he may have had no choice really).

Gilbert + Greene looked pretty good last thing though, oddly enough.

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03-24-2007, 07:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cerebral View Post
It's not like Bergeron was stuck out against the Thornton's and Iginla's of the world on a regular basis due to Edmonton's lack of defensive depth, he was getting fairly favorable matchups every night. The key difference this season was that Bergeron didn't get to play a veteran defensive partner on a nightly basis.
That's the big one, Cerebral. He didn't get to play with a more veteran dman. He's shown in the past and on the Island that if he's paired with a vet that isn't prone to rookie mistakes, he can put up numbers. He will likely never be successful in a more difficult role but he definitely has a niche.

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03-24-2007, 07:27 PM
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Originally Posted by momentai View Post
That's the big one, Cerebral. He didn't get to play with a more veteran dman. He's shown in the past and on the Island that if he's paired with a vet that isn't prone to rookie mistakes, he can put up numbers. He will likely never be successful in a more difficult role but he definitely has a niche.
I guess the question becomes this then: Could the Oilers really afford to continue playing Bergeron in a sheltered role with a number of promising young defencemen emerging who all likely need similar treatment (two of whom I feel definitely have more potential than Bergeron in Smid and Chorney)? Heck, Smid ended up playing relatively tough minutes all season simply because Bergeron was the one who received all the favorable matchups.

Bergeron definitely has found a niche in the NHL but I wouldn't mind seeing the Oilers play a guy like Chorney in his role (at least in a year or two) simply because I feel he might be able to one day advance beyond that role and become a true top 4 defenceman.

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03-24-2007, 07:29 PM
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Yeah we'll see how it all shakes out

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Originally Posted by momentai View Post
Bingo.

Too many guys to break in the lineup this year that needed weak minutes. Bergeron was always a guy that could put up good numbers against weaker opposition but we needed to allocate those minutes to the kids. Tough position all around.
if Grebs ends up being more than useful then it won't be such a bad deal. The Oilers knew what they had in Bergy, an affordable guy who could do well in soft min opps, but they decided to quit on him basically for yet another prospect and because they couldn't get over a bad stretch he was having just before he left. Of course this might not look so bad if a few things happen:

- Smid winds up chipping in a little offense and can handle top four opp
-Grebs becomes a useful guy
- Greene doesn't continue to suck.

That being said this could wind up being an awful trade and I'm not saying that MAB's gonna be be Satan but Bergy may wind up to macT what Satan was to Ron Low.

Did you see Bergy step up today to set up the GWG? That's the kind of stuff I always wanted to see him do as an Oiler. I'm a MacT guy but I think the Oilers made a mistake here and I'll only chnage that opinion if Grebs winds up being something to talk about,

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03-24-2007, 07:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Cerebral View Post
I guess the question becomes this then: Could the Oilers really afford to continue playing Bergeron in a sheltered role with a number of promising young defencemen emerging who all likely need similar treatment (two of whom I feel definitely have more potential than Bergeron in Smid and Chorney)?
I would suppose that on an Oilers club that is "rebuilding" so to speak, Bergeron isn't as valuable as a player. However, for a team like an Ottawa, Buffalo, Detroit, Anaheim a player like him who has shown he can put up pts with his minutes, he's an ideal player. A case could be Tom Preissing is currently handling this role in OTT right now.

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03-24-2007, 07:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cerebral View Post
I guess the question becomes this then: Could the Oilers really afford to continue playing Bergeron in a sheltered role with a number of promising young defencemen emerging who all likely need similar treatment (two of whom I feel definitely have more potential than Bergeron in Smid and Chorney)? Heck, Smid ended up playing relatively tough minutes all season simply because Bergeron was the one who received all the favorable matchups.

Bergeron definitely has found a niche in the NHL but I wouldn't mind seeing the Oilers play a guy like Chorney in his role (at least in a year or two) simply because I feel he might be able to one day advance beyond that role and become a true top 4 defenceman.
What you're forgetting though is that Chorney will not be near as effective as Bergeron was in that position. Bergeron looked like he finally got it on the PP (before he was inexplicably taken off of it in for Petersen) and has proven that he can destroy lower level competition.

I mean, say we had a guy like Comrie on this team and we knew he could score 30 goals. OR we could have a guy like Pouliot on this team who would score 10 goals but could/should be a better player in a few years.

Who do you play?

I think that's the question. And I think the reason we chose Pouliot is because this team isn't going to be good enough this year or next year, and maybe not even the year after.

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03-24-2007, 08:11 PM
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i think most people know my opinion on this matter, but ill make it concise for those who dont.... i think it was an absolutely *terrible* trade.... completely one sided in the islanders favor.... MAB was misued here and is now showing what he can be on the island.... MAB may one day be a poor mans rafalski, but even if he doesnt reach those lofty heights, he'll always be a solid PP producer and an adequate bottom pairing guy.... the fact that he was signed for a couple more season for next to nothing makes this trade even worst than it would be otherwise

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03-24-2007, 08:30 PM
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in the situation the oilers are in Bergeron just didn't fit. He couldn't take a tough matchup after how many years in the league?? The oilers have rookies with higher upsides than Bergeron that they're breaking in, it makes more sense to protect them than Bergeron, and because Bergeron couldn't play defence well enough he is not here.

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03-24-2007, 09:01 PM
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I've always felt that Bergeron's up-side was Rafalski-esque. He has put up numbers in every league that he's played in. IMO the fact that the coach and MAB never saw eye to eye, had a lot to do with his lack of offensive production. Not every player and every coach will get along, so you can't lay all of the blame at Mac-T's feet, but IMO his production is making Mac-T look a little foolish. If it continues next season, there should be some questions asked IMO.

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03-24-2007, 09:04 PM
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To be fair also, MAB's numbers may be a bit inflated from playing in a more offensive conference.

There's no Kipprusoff, Luongo, Hasek, Fernandez, Pronger, Neidermayer, Lidstrom, etc. in the East and most teams play basically a run n' gun style.

Bergeron basically being a forward d-man can thrive in that conference. In a division like ours though, it's a little tougher. I'm pretty sure if we were in the East, our scoring would be higher too (conversely though, we'd probably give up more goals to go with it).

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03-24-2007, 09:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Bryanbryoil View Post
I've always felt that Bergeron's up-side was Rafalski-esque. He has put up numbers in every league that he's played in. IMO the fact that the coach and MAB never saw eye to eye, had a lot to do with his lack of offensive production. Not every player and every coach will get along, so you can't lay all of the blame at Mac-T's feet, but IMO his production is making Mac-T look a little foolish. If it continues next season, there should be some questions asked IMO.
agree completely.... it was a bad trade when we made it, and now its looking downright foolish.... im willing to give grebs a chance to change my mind though, but hes gonna have to be pretty good to replace MAB's 35-40 points/year

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03-24-2007, 09:44 PM
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agree completely.... it was a bad trade when we made it, and now its looking downright foolish.... im willing to give grebs a chance to change my mind though, but hes gonna have to be pretty good to replace MAB's 35-40 points/year
I look forward to seeing Grebeshkov and having him mix in with Smid and Gilbert. The bottom line is that we need to have a bunch of guys that can break the puck out of our own zone. IMO Smid will show us a lot more offense starting next season. From what I saw of him at the WJC's he has yet to break out those skills at this level. That said, we still need some improvements in the back-end and particuarly a guy that can hammer the puck from the blue-line.

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Old
03-24-2007, 09:56 PM
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I've always felt getting rid of Bergeron was a huge plus. I won't make any final calls until I see Grebeshkov playing for the Oilers next season (Smith, Staios, Grebeshkov, Greene, Smid & whatever UFA they sign in the summer is my prediction for the main defensive lineup).

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