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Old
03-24-2007, 09:59 PM
  #26
Mr Sakich
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grebeshkov is like when we got Gilbert. It didn't matter who we got, it was time to move a certain player. If Grebs turns out to be a player, then we win this deal easily.

As long as he doesn't run over Hemsky with his SUV, we won this deal.

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Old
03-24-2007, 10:30 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Soundwave View Post
Agreed with the Greene thing. Greene + MAB was always terrible, it's a wonder Mac T always stuck with it (though this year he may have had no choice really).
Not true at all really. That Greene/MAB pairing playing bottom pairing opposition was actually decent. Those two were above even when playing together at 5V5. In fact that's the only pairing that Greene has been positive on this year. Like him or not, MAB can generate offense in that role and that's the only kind of opposition that Greene can handle at this point in his career.

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03-24-2007, 10:35 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by PDO View Post
What you're forgetting though is that Chorney will not be near as effective as Bergeron was in that position. Bergeron looked like he finally got it on the PP (before he was inexplicably taken off of it in for Petersen) and has proven that he can destroy lower level competition.
Actually if Chorney does become a decent NHL dman he probably will be better than MAB on the PP. To this day, MAB's still nothing but a point shot IMO. If he's not shooting the puck on the PP, he's not helping it. I think that's the real reason he took so long to come around - the Oilers started using him more exclusively as a shooter for the first time this year. Heck he's really only been halfway decent on the PP for less than 82 games.

If I was playing the NYI PP, I'd tell the high guy to go hard out to Bergeron. If you take away the shot and make him handle the puck he's far less effective.

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03-24-2007, 10:54 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Cerebral View Post
Try doing a quick search for "Bergeron," I'm sure you'll find your answer if you do a little looking.
is this the 5th or 6th discussion about MAB since he left

why do people point at his assists and goals


I liked MAB--but there was certain aspects of his ability to play the position--beyond that of getting goals and what not

he was horrible in his own zone more often then not

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03-24-2007, 11:07 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RiversQ View Post
Actually if Chorney does become a decent NHL dman he probably will be better than MAB on the PP. To this day, MAB's still nothing but a point shot IMO. If he's not shooting the puck on the PP, he's not helping it. I think that's the real reason he took so long to come around - the Oilers started using him more exclusively as a shooter for the first time this year. Heck he's really only been halfway decent on the PP for less than 82 games.

If I was playing the NYI PP, I'd tell the high guy to go hard out to Bergeron. If you take away the shot and make him handle the puck he's far less effective.
Well, I'm talking about Chorney's rookie/sophomore years, and there's not many defensemen who can contribute to an NHL PP at that age unless they're solely a shooter (see: Celine)... from what I've heard, Chorney doesn't have a big shot, just a good one?

I'm also moreso referring to Bergerons work at 5v5, which has been pretty damn good by my eye and by the numbers over his time here, obviously with the caveat it's been against **** opposition. He's made a lot of mistakes, but recovered from most of them as well.

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03-24-2007, 11:11 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by RiversQ View Post
Actually if Chorney does become a decent NHL dman he probably will be better than MAB on the PP. To this day, MAB's still nothing but a point shot IMO. If he's not shooting the puck on the PP, he's not helping it. I think that's the real reason he took so long to come around - the Oilers started using him more exclusively as a shooter for the first time this year. Heck he's really only been halfway decent on the PP for less than 82 games.

If I was playing the NYI PP, I'd tell the high guy to go hard out to Bergeron. If you take away the shot and make him handle the puck he's far less effective.
Actually this is a good point. How many times on the PP did MAB make that stupid cross ice pass to the other point man which was picked off for a break away/partial break away SH oppurtunity?

I think he's doing well in the East, but the teams in the East haven't scouted him that well and he's also playing against lesser defenses and lesser goalies out East.

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Old
03-24-2007, 11:14 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by PDO View Post
Well, I'm talking about Chorney's rookie/sophomore years, and there's not many defensemen who can contribute to an NHL PP at that age unless they're solely a shooter (see: Celine)... from what I've heard, Chorney doesn't have a big shot, just a good one?
No idea about Chorney. I saw part of one Team USA game over the holidays. That's true though - most young players aren't great on the PP period and that's probably especially true for a dman.

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I'm also moreso referring to Bergerons work at 5v5, which has been pretty damn good by my eye and by the numbers over his time here, obviously with the caveat it's been against **** opposition. He's made a lot of mistakes, but recovered from most of them as well.
Yeah he was underrated by many IMO. Of course I think Lowetide nailed it - you can only hide so many dmen and if the Oilers were bound and determined to develop players over the next couple of years, then MAB had to go.

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03-24-2007, 11:34 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Lowetide View Post
Bergeron was paired with Greene mostly. Which meant Greene was either misreading the play, giving the puck away, or taking a hooking penalty. Matt Greene had a bad, bad year. BAD.
I'll give you this, but at the same time you could turn this around. Who was the rookie and who was the veteran on that pair? Playing with MAB wasn't much good for Greene's game either.

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03-25-2007, 12:37 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by hillbillypriest View Post
I'll give you this, but at the same time you could turn this around.
Not really. MAB had middling results everywhere. Greene had horrible results except when he played with MAB.

As of game 68 or so, Greene was +30/-45 at 5V5. Greene and Bergeron were +22/-21 when they were together. That means Greene was +8/-24 with the other Oiler dmen. How can this be turned around?

Quote:
Who was the rookie and who was the veteran on that pair?
MAB obviously.

Quote:
Playing with MAB wasn't much good for Greene's game either.
Sure it was - MAB was the only guy Greene played with where the pairing managed to keep their heads above water. Every other dman on the Oilers had better numbers when they were away from Greene (albeit the icetimes are probably getting pretty small for some of them).

If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck and smells like a duck... It's a damn duck.

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Old
03-25-2007, 01:25 AM
  #35
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That's actually what they're doing

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiversQ View Post

If I was playing the NYI PP, I'd tell the high guy to go hard out to Bergeron. If you take away the shot and make him handle the puck he's far less effective.
I watched teh isles game today and they were talking about how even though Bergy's new to the EC the Flyers were totally keying on him on the PP. So Nolan seemed to re-adjust and he ran an umbrella with Poti at the top and Bergy to his right.

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Old
03-25-2007, 02:24 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Mr Sakich View Post
grebeshkov is like when we got Gilbert. It didn't matter who we got, it was time to move a certain player. If Grebs turns out to be a player, then we win this deal easily.
Agreed... I think that MAB will develop into a great puck moving defenceman and will be a great contributor on whatever team he plays for. However, if he stayed in Edmonton much longer I think that he would have been ruined as a hockey player. He had no confidence and was getting no support from the coaching staff, a deadly combo for a young player.
I am really glad to see him get a 2nd chance and believe his development as a player is all uphill from here. But, if he continued wearing and oilers jersey the opposite most likely would have happened

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Old
03-25-2007, 02:47 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by RiversQ View Post
Not really. MAB had middling results everywhere. Greene had horrible results except when he played with MAB.

As of game 68 or so, Greene was +30/-45 at 5V5. Greene and Bergeron were +22/-21 when they were together. That means Greene was +8/-24 with the other Oiler dmen. How can this be turned around?


MAB obviously.


Sure it was - MAB was the only guy Greene played with where the pairing managed to keep their heads above water. Every other dman on the Oilers had better numbers when they were away from Greene (albeit the icetimes are probably getting pretty small for some of them).

If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck and smells like a duck... It's a damn duck.
hmmmm seems to me that this is a paper thin argument here. MAB and Greene were paired together mostly early in the season right?? Like when the veteran defencemen were healthy right?? so perhaps instead of focussing on who Greene was paired with we should be taking into account just who Greene was on the ice against, cause I'm pretty sure that once people started getting hurt he started seeing tougher minutes.

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Old
03-25-2007, 11:24 AM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RiversQ View Post
Sure it was - MAB was the only guy Greene played with where the pairing managed to keep their heads above water. Every other dman on the Oilers had better numbers when they were away from Greene (albeit the icetimes are probably getting pretty small for some of them).

If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck and smells like a duck... It's a damn duck.
I'm sure that playing with Greene this year would pull anybody down. I do think - and I will stand by this - that in many games this year that I watched, an otherwise pretty close game became a one goal deficit when either MAB or Greene would turn an apparently routine play in our zone into a goal. This drove me nuts all year and didn't seem to be getting any better as the year progressed.

In the end, I was disappointed, but not too surprised that MAB was traded. I wish him well (eventually, but not this season ).

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Old
03-25-2007, 01:00 PM
  #39
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This is pretty simple guys. He is a good PP guy, if he gets on a good pp, like the island that is on fire, he will rack up points. Our PP sucked. No one said he can't score. However he sucks in the Defensive end, plain and simple, All the islander fans will see this soon enough. I am happy he is gone, I think Grebs will be a way better all around D man in the NHL.

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03-25-2007, 01:12 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by okgooil View Post
This is pretty simple guys. He is a good PP guy, if he gets on a good pp, like the island that is on fire, he will rack up points. Our PP sucked. No one said he can't score. However he sucks in the Defensive end, plain and simple, All the islander fans will see this soon enough. I am happy he is gone, I think Grebs will be a way better all around D man in the NHL.
This is actually a fantastic point in my opinion.

Bergeron is a guy who benefits from playing on a good powerplay, he doesn't transform a poor powerplay into a good one (as we have seen over the past few years). He has a cannon for a shot which is certainly useful but he's far from a powerplay quarterback and I personally feel his skill-set can be duplicated by Stoll on the powerplay.

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03-25-2007, 01:23 PM
  #41
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I think an earlier poster made a great point that if the Oilers are to somehow introduce and develop the wealth of young talent they have on D then Bergeron had to go. There just is so many easy minutes in a game to distribute.

Look at the D who are going to be NHL ready or close to it this fall:

Smith
Staios

Hejda (think KLowe will resign this guy, and hope he does)
Smid
Grebeshkov
Gilbert
Greene
Roy
Chorney?
(probably could spend another year in college or in the A)
Tjarnqvist (I just don't see giving a spot to him. Either you're young with a great upside, or a vet who brings it, and I don't think Shaggy is either. He would have to sign at far far less than 1.6 to make me bite)

That is an extremely young and inexperienced group of defencemen. I have a feeling that Greene will be gone this summer - he just didn't continue his development as was hoped. Not sure if Roy will ever be an NHL regular and might just be a really good mini Gator for us in Springfield.

There are those who will be calling for us to move Smith or Staios or both. That would be catastrophic IMO, as we so need those veterans to help bring the youngsters along. Besides, I think Smith has really turned his game around from his really slow start this year.

We talk about picking up a big FA or trading for a good puck moving 2 way D, but man the log jam is gonna get even worse back there. I think we will end up trading some of our D prospects and/ or young D for a veteran.

Sorry for getting way OT, but with Bergies struggles here, and the Oiler D situation in general, I think the trade was the best move for us. If Grebeshkov can be as good as his supporters claim, it will end up being a no brainer in retrospect.

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Old
03-25-2007, 01:54 PM
  #42
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Change of Scenery

Like most players that are traded they usually benefit from a change of scenery. MAB now plays in a defence oriented system so his mistakes are minimzed.

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Old
03-25-2007, 02:41 PM
  #43
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With MAB out of the picture, it looks like Greene is the next one to be run over by the Boys on the Bus fans. I think this is premature, as Greene looks to me like a younger Gator, but then Gator still gets a lot of the same response. Smid got Staios to learn from and play beside this year, and Greene got Bergy, so that should be kept in perspective. Smid looks like he has better tools and is the better bet for a top pairing guy in the long run, but Greene is still a player who can be a solid contributor. You will always need a guy who can hit & stick up for his teammates.

I think that next season's success boils down to the same thing we needed this season, a solid veteran top pairing guy who can handle the puck half-competently...and that isn't Smith, who has his own virtues that make him important. I think this line-up is not that bad:

Vets: Future Mystery D/Smith/Staios/Hejda with maybe Shaggy if he will come cheap as PB insurance.

Kids/rooks: Smid/Greene/Gilbert with maybe Grebs if he is as good as they say. Chorney could be an outside chance to get minutes sometime during the season if he drops out of college. He impressed me a lot during the WJC as captain and top pairing guy beside Johnson. He will be a bona fide NHL player before too long.

With the quantity of quality D prospects lined up I would look for somebody to get moved as part of a deal for that Mystery #1 D-man. Less likely, but also possible would involve Smith or Staios in a trade for that mystery guy. I think that going into the season with more than one young guy joining the roster (Grebs or Chorney or Gilbert) would be too much, considering how we broke in Greene & Smid this year.

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Old
03-25-2007, 05:33 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by missinthejets View Post
hmmmm seems to me that this is a paper thin argument here. MAB and Greene were paired together mostly early in the season right?? Like when the veteran defencemen were healthy right?? so perhaps instead of focussing on who Greene was paired with we should be taking into account just who Greene was on the ice against, cause I'm pretty sure that once people started getting hurt he started seeing tougher minutes.
There's nothing paper thin about it. Of course Greene played tougher opposition when he wasn't paired with MAB or Smid - those things go hand in hand. That's part of the point.

The point remains, when Greene stepped up to play with any other Oiler dman his results suffered tremendously and the team has taken a beating as a result. Basically, he's a 5/6 dman at best on this team and he's totally incapable of generating any offense in any role.

Quite simply, Lowetide's argument surrounding MAB will shortly apply to Greene - if he can't generate positive results without being sheltered (and paired with a decent dman) then the Oilers will choose to move on to develop the next kid. That's totally justified IMO. Grebeshkov, Gilbert and Smid will be lurking again next year and that will be too many to fit into the lineup yet again.

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