HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Western Conference > Pacific Division > Edmonton Oilers
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Torres

View Poll Results: Should Torres be traded?
Yes 50 37.31%
No 60 44.78%
Undecided 24 17.91%
Voters: 134. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
03-25-2007, 05:14 PM
  #1
Narnia
HFBoards Sponsor
 
Narnia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Surrey, BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 14,394
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to Narnia
Torres

Torres was benched last night. He's not playing as well as he should. He could be better but would you trade Torres?

__________________
"He just ate up Robyn Regehr for dinner, a spectacular play by Hemsky, and Robyn Regehr has got doo doo all over his face" - Rod Phillips call on Hemsky's goal vs the Flames
Narnia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-25-2007, 05:15 PM
  #2
Cerebral
Registered User
 
Cerebral's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Calgary, Alberta
Country: Canada
Posts: 21,697
vCash: 500
I would trade Torres in a second if we could get a good return. The kid doesn't have the mental makeup to be a consistent player in this league and I'm not sold he'll ever "get it." People keep acting like we can't move Torres because he's our most physical top 6 forward but the guy initiates contact with the body less than almost every other one of our forwards. Hell, Petersen plays a physical game more consistently than Torres and that's not an over exaggeration in any way.

If we could find a way to trade Torres + more for an upgrade in our lineup (hopefully a blueliner like Redden) and then turn around and sign a low-risk replacement like Calder, I'd be thrilled.

__________________
Burn Girl Prom Queen
Cerebral is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-25-2007, 05:18 PM
  #3
PDO
Registered User
 
PDO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Edmonton
Country: Canada
Posts: 11,220
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to PDO
Sigh.

Torres is inconsistent offensively, but he's at least proven to be able to take on strong opposition. I'd personally rather use this year to sign him to a cheaper contract for a couple seasons here and deal Lupul.

One of them is gone, and it looks like Raffi will be the man to be dealt though.

PDO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-25-2007, 05:22 PM
  #4
gr8haluschak
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,188
vCash: 500
what are you going to trade him for ? the guy is not going to get a hell of a huge raise this contract so he will still be cheap and yeah this year is a little sub par but the guy is a 20 goal/40 point producer which is not that bad for a second line player, not to mention the physical aspect he brings.

gr8haluschak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-25-2007, 05:22 PM
  #5
RiversQ
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 2,714
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by PDO View Post
One of them is gone, and it looks like Raffi will be the man to be dealt though.
Probably true and won't that be a joke? There's really no comparison between these two players. Trading Torres in favour of keeping Lupul would be monumentally stupid.

RiversQ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-25-2007, 05:23 PM
  #6
Narnia
HFBoards Sponsor
 
Narnia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Surrey, BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 14,394
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to Narnia
Torres isn't the same player since the Williams hit in October. He's afraid to hit since then. He's afraid someone is going to get injured. Torres game is being physical and right now he's not being physical He needs to stop worrying about someone getting injured.

Narnia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-25-2007, 05:23 PM
  #7
JonQuixote
Registered User
 
JonQuixote's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Edmonton, AB
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,188
vCash: 500
I'd entertain offers on him. But I don't know if we'll get anything for him that's worth more than the possibility that Torres can finally make good on his potential.

I'd be comfortable signing him to a cheap 1-yr contract and hope he turns it around.

I have to laugh at MacT's "I figured out how to motivate him every night" comment from earlier this season though.

He's not the only guy on this team playing like poo though. There's a problem bigger than the players - Torres, Hemsky, Lupul, Sykora, Horcoff - nobody's been playing at the level they should. So I can't see how it's smart to write a guy off based on his play this year.

JonQuixote is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-25-2007, 05:27 PM
  #8
gr8haluschak
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,188
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by RiversQ View Post
Probably true and won't that be a joke? There's really no comparison between these two players. Trading Torres in favour of keeping Lupul would be monumentally stupid.
wow that is all I have to say,

Torres - born in 81 played 269 games scoring 61 goals and 53 assists for 114 points
Lupul - born in 83 played 231 games scoring 57 goals and 57 assists for 114 points

So can you tell me how keeping one over th eother is MONUMENTALLY STUPID ?

gr8haluschak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-25-2007, 05:40 PM
  #9
RiversQ
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 2,714
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by gr8haluschak View Post
wow that is all I have to say,

Torres - born in 81 played 269 games scoring 61 goals and 53 assists for 114 points
Lupul - born in 83 played 231 games scoring 57 goals and 57 assists for 114 points

So can you tell me how keeping one over th eother is MONUMENTALLY STUPID ?
I could write a freaking book on the topic at this point. Their results this year aren't even remotely close - Lupul lags behind in almost every category.

Do you really want me to go there? I can provide numerous pieces of evidence over the past two seasons to support Torres over Lupul.

RiversQ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-25-2007, 05:42 PM
  #10
Bryanbryoil
Moderator
I Know A Thing Or 6
 
Bryanbryoil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: About Winning
Posts: 50,794
vCash: 500
IMO you sign him for 3 seasons if you can at less than $2 million per, when he picks up his game, then maybe you trade him, or you laugh all the way to the bank as he'd be a bargain. Taht said, maybe he won't want to return as long as Mac-T is coaching here.

__________________
Treat Others As You Would Like To Be Treated
Bryanbryoil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-25-2007, 05:44 PM
  #11
gr8haluschak
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,188
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by RiversQ View Post
I could write a freaking book on the topic at this point. Their results this year aren't even remotely close - Lupul lags behind in almost every category.

Do you really want me to go there? I can provide numerous pieces of evidence over the past two seasons to support Torres over Lupul.
ok whatever coach, two years older and has played more games in the NHL yet puts up the same stats but yeah he is miles ahead of Lupul. As well I would love to know what categories he lags behind.

gr8haluschak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-25-2007, 05:46 PM
  #12
Bryanbryoil
Moderator
I Know A Thing Or 6
 
Bryanbryoil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: About Winning
Posts: 50,794
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by RiversQ View Post
I could write a freaking book on the topic at this point. Their results this year aren't even remotely close - Lupul lags behind in almost every category.

Do you really want me to go there? I can provide numerous pieces of evidence over the past two seasons to support Torres over Lupul.
I for one don't want you to go to that naughty numbers place Riv I'd be hesitant to trade either of these guys un-less we get something solid in return. Although potential isn't worth anywhere near what it used to pre-CBA IMO. With the lower UFA age, IMO any player that isn't a solid contributor by the time that he's 24 or 25 his value isn't all that great.

Bryanbryoil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-25-2007, 05:47 PM
  #13
Oilbleeder
Moderator
Lead us to glory.
 
Oilbleeder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Oil Country
Country: Canada
Posts: 22,819
vCash: 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by PDO View Post
Sigh.

Torres is inconsistent offensively, but he's at least proven to be able to take on strong opposition. I'd personally rather use this year to sign him to a cheaper contract for a couple seasons here and deal Lupul.

One of them is gone, and it looks like Raffi will be the man to be dealt though.
Any idea why?? Not bashing just wandering, i always thought Raffi was the guy management had hope in, add in the fact him and stoll are buddies, also that he has shown chemistry with a fair few players, and at worst, he could be a Chris Neil type player.

I know the case can be made that he will never get it, but the same can be said for Lupul too, yes he has more upside, but if he busts big time, im not sure what his worst could be. Lupul, IMO would also warrent more interest around the league, because of his obvious upside, but also because we didn't have a play making center, you could probably use that as an excuse.

I dunno, if i was say someone like Ottawa, and we're talking deals for Redden, and you say, Torres or Lupul, and my team is stacked with playmaking centers, i might go for Lupul because he could potentiall put us over the top. JMO....

Oilbleeder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-25-2007, 05:56 PM
  #14
Traktor*
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,657
vCash: 500
I would only trade Torres if a team overpaid for him. He is a key piece in any championchip club. You need the FP's and EM's and you need players like Torres too. I think it would be stupid to trade Torres because when we are going to another cup run we would need to go out and find a Torres type player. Physical that can still score. I think you need PKers, good defensive players and you need players like Torres that can hurt you physically and on the score board.

Traktor* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-25-2007, 05:59 PM
  #15
Doc Scurlock
Registered User
 
Doc Scurlock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Country: Canada
Posts: 976
vCash: 500
If Lowe makes a trade this summer I wouldn't be surprised if Torres is one of the guys in a package that'll be heading the other way.

Doc Scurlock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-25-2007, 06:00 PM
  #16
HuMz
Registered User
 
HuMz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Calgary, Canada
Posts: 2,441
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by RiversQ View Post
I could write a freaking book on the topic at this point. Their results this year aren't even remotely close - Lupul lags behind in almost every category.

Do you really want me to go there? I can provide numerous pieces of evidence over the past two seasons to support Torres over Lupul.
Can you support some numerous pieces of evidence how there its not even comparable and that Torres is so far and above Lupul like you claim?

It's pretty clear you have alot of hate towards Lupul, and you can throw every little stat you want to try and prove your point that he will never amount to anything but in reality he is still very young, scored just as many goals as Torres career high (in his second NHL season) and most importantly he does have talent.

Stats aren't the only indicator in judgeing talent.

HuMz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-25-2007, 06:06 PM
  #17
okgooil
HFBoards Sponsor
 
okgooil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Edmonton, AB
Posts: 12,071
vCash: 500
No, I will keep him for cheap thanks. He is one of the hardest hitters in the NHL, and if he is put on a good line with some one like stoll who doens't get hurt, he can score 30.

okgooil is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
03-25-2007, 06:17 PM
  #18
jadeddog
Registered User
 
jadeddog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Regina, Saskatchewan
Posts: 11,822
vCash: 500
no i keep him... but really the only reason i do is because he has very little trade value and his contract will be cheap-cheap next year

jadeddog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-25-2007, 06:17 PM
  #19
Raoul Duke*
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Edmonton
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,007
vCash: 500
Benched more than traded.

Raoul Duke* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-25-2007, 06:50 PM
  #20
RiversQ
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 2,714
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by HuMz View Post
Can you support some numerous pieces of evidence how there its not even comparable and that Torres is so far and above Lupul like you claim?
What on Earth does that mean?

Quote:
It's pretty clear you have alot of hate towards Lupul...
Actually I have no hate for Lupul whatsoever. I would love for Lupul to succeed in Edmonton but I'm a realist. Realistically, Lupul has struggled tremendously this year and he has been given numerous opportunities. Many of his struggles this year are symptomatic of larger problems with his game (horrible GA numbers, low shot totals) and that makes me wonder about his future.

Quote:
...and you can throw every little stat you want to try and prove your point that he will never amount to anything but in reality he is still very young, scored just as many goals as Torres career high (in his second NHL season) and most importantly he does have talent.
So your argument boils down to:

1) He has scored some goals.
2) "He does have talent."

I agree with both of those. However, I don't put much stock in goals when a player seems almost totally incompetent in all other aspects of the game. Lupul has talent, but the more I see him play and the more I look at his results, the more it appears that it's not top 6 NHL talent I'm looking at.

Quote:
Stats aren't the only indicator in judgeing talent.
True. There are many other qualitative items that also verify what the numbers tell me about Joffrey Lupul and Raffi Torres.

Torres is going to be better and cheaper than Lupul for the next two years and I can't really see anyone arguing that in a rational manner.

RiversQ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-25-2007, 07:45 PM
  #21
Rafters
Registered User
 
Rafters's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Medicine Hat
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,860
vCash: 500
He is proving not to be the top 6 forward we had hoped for,but could be an elite outscoring,physical 3rd liner if he is motivated

Rafters is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
03-25-2007, 07:54 PM
  #22
Magnus
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 490
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cerebral View Post
I would trade Torres in a second if we could get a good return. The kid doesn't have the mental makeup to be a consistent player in this league and I'm not sold he'll ever "get it." People keep acting like we can't move Torres because he's our most physical top 6 forward but the guy initiates contact with the body less than almost every other one of our forwards. Hell, Petersen plays a physical game more consistently than Torres and that's not an over exaggeration in any way.

If we could find a way to trade Torres + more for an upgrade in our lineup (hopefully a blueliner like Redden) and then turn around and sign a low-risk replacement like Calder, I'd be thrilled.
I normally agree with most of what you say. But on this one I couldn't disagree with you more. You're going to give up on a guy who's only in his 4th full season in the NHL? I'm sure you're as well aware as anyone else that power forwards take longer to develop usually.

He had a bad season, yes... but so did every other player on the team. Smyth and probably Stoll and Staois are the only players who played well this year, everyone else had a disappointing season.
His goalscoring dropped to 14 this year, but that's still more than Hemsky's 10, the same as Pisani and pretty much on par with Horcoff and Lupul's 16. And this again while playing less minutes than those other players. And let's not forget that with perhaps the exception of Pisani, those are all guys considered to be better offensively than Torres. In +/-, he did better than all those players other than Pisani.

We'll also have to disagree about the physical aspect. I saw far too many games this year where the Oilers were being pushed around by other teams. Teams like Detroit. And none of the forwards were responding. The only players who have had an impact physically for the team are Stortini and Stoll... and Torres, when he does play physically. I agree he doesn't do it often enough, but trading him would not improve the situation. Petersen can try all he wants, but he'll never have any impact physically on a game.

As for Calder... while I'm intrigued by the possibility of signing him, you seem to be overlooking the fact that he has had an even worse season than Torres in every aspect of the game. I hardly consider him a low-risk replacement and I find it interesting that you are more forgiving towards Calder who is older, smaller, had a worse season and will likely be more expensive.

Magnus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-25-2007, 08:14 PM
  #23
Cerebral
Registered User
 
Cerebral's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Calgary, Alberta
Country: Canada
Posts: 21,697
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnus View Post
I normally agree with most of what you say. But on this one I couldn't disagree with you more. You're going to give up on a guy who's only in his 4th full season in the NHL? I'm sure you're as well aware as anyone else that power forwards take longer to develop usually.
You're forgetting one key point: Torres is one year away from unrestricted free agency (at least I believe he is! ). What happens if we sign Torres to a one year low-base contract and he struggles all season? Hell, what happens if we sign Torres to a cheap one year contract and he breaks out?

I should make it clear, I'm not in favor of dumping Torres for next to anything. I'd welcome him back in Edmonton next year if teams aren't offering very much but I would also consequently have no problem shipping him out the door if a team like Ottawa wanted him in a deal for Redden.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnus View Post

We'll also have to disagree about the physical aspect. I saw far too many games this year where the Oilers were being pushed around by other teams. Teams like Detroit. And none of the forwards were responding. The only players who have had an impact physically for the team are Stortini and Stoll... and Torres, when he does play physically. I agree he doesn't do it often enough, but trading him would not improve the situation. Petersen can try all he wants, but he'll never have any impact physically on a game.
I fully agree that our team needs to be more physical but that's perhaps the biggest reason why I am so bitter about Torres this season. The guy COULD easily be the most physical player on this team. He has a very similar frame to Brenden Morrow and Morrow is an absolute beast on the forecheck. Instead though, Torres plays a completely passive game and throws a big hit about once every two months.

Trading Torres wouldn't hurt our team in the physical department simply because Torres never plays physically.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnus View Post
As for Calder... while I'm intrigued by the possibility of signing him, you seem to be overlooking the fact that he has had an even worse season than Torres in every aspect of the game. I hardly consider him a low-risk replacement and I find it interesting that you are more forgiving towards Calder who is older, smaller, had a worse season and will likely be more expensive.
Yeah, Calder was more or less just a suggestion as a guy who could potentially bounce back next season. It's not like I'm in favor of trading Torres for next to nothing and then replacing him with Calder, I'd like to see the Oilers move him if they can get a decent return and then sign a fairly similar replacement for free via unrestricted free agency.

Cerebral is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-25-2007, 08:18 PM
  #24
Cloned
Sexy Genesis
 
Cloned's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 21,908
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by RiversQ View Post
What on Earth does that mean?


Actually I have no hate for Lupul whatsoever. I would love for Lupul to succeed in Edmonton but I'm a realist. Realistically, Lupul has struggled tremendously this year and he has been given numerous opportunities. Many of his struggles this year are symptomatic of larger problems with his game (horrible GA numbers, low shot totals) and that makes me wonder about his future.



So your argument boils down to:

1) He has scored some goals.
2) "He does have talent."

I agree with both of those. However, I don't put much stock in goals when a player seems almost totally incompetent in all other aspects of the game. Lupul has talent, but the more I see him play and the more I look at his results, the more it appears that it's not top 6 NHL talent I'm looking at.



True. There are many other qualitative items that also verify what the numbers tell me about Joffrey Lupul and Raffi Torres.

Torres is going to be better and cheaper than Lupul for the next two years and I can't really see anyone arguing that in a rational manner.
Three things here.

1. Do we agree that BOTH Lupul and Torres are underperforming significantly?

2. If NEITHER are going to reach their "potential," the best bet is to trade one or both of them now for something that CAN help this team before other GMs catch on.

3. If Torres does indeed have the better contract and the better perceived value around the league, I would argue that trading Torres would actually be the better way to get the most value out of this pair of underachieving forwards.

And if we could trade both for some good assets, I'd be even more on board with that.

__________________

Sig AND X-mas avatar courtesy of The Nemesis

"Pull yourself together!" - Solid Snake to Otacon, multiple times in the series
Cloned is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-25-2007, 08:23 PM
  #25
Magnus
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 490
vCash: 500
I guess I still choose to believe that Torres will eventually find some consistancy to his game. I think he's still young and I'm also starting to wonder what role MacT has in all this. I'm starting to get the impression that not only does the coach shy away wanting to play an aggressive, physical style, but now it seems he might not be very good at instilling confidence in players either.
The only way I'd think about trading Torres would be if we signed Hartnell first. Still, in my opinion MacTavish should be sent packing before Torres.

Magnus is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:37 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.