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Torres

View Poll Results: Should Torres be traded?
Yes 50 37.31%
No 60 44.78%
Undecided 24 17.91%
Voters: 134. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
03-25-2007, 08:26 PM
  #26
Narnia
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Torres is hurting himself by not being physical since the Williams hit. Other teams think Torres is a cheap shot (Vancouver, San Jose to name a few). The hit on Williams in which Williams got injured really hurt Torres emotionally. He hasn't been the same since then. He's afraid to hit fearing someone will get injured. He has to get over that fear ASAP.

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03-25-2007, 09:55 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smyth2Hemsky View Post
Torres is hurting himself by not being physical since the Williams hit. Other teams think Torres is a cheap shot (Vancouver, San Jose to name a few). The hit on Williams in which Williams got injured really hurt Torres emotionally. He hasn't been the same since then. He's afraid to hit fearing someone will get injured. He has to get over that fear ASAP.
You really believe that?

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Old
03-25-2007, 10:58 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnus View Post
I guess I still choose to believe that Torres will eventually find some consistancy to his game. I think he's still young and I'm also starting to wonder what role MacT has in all this. I'm starting to get the impression that not only does the coach shy away wanting to play an aggressive, physical style, but now it seems he might not be very good at instilling confidence in players either.
The only way I'd think about trading Torres would be if we signed Hartnell first. Still, in my opinion MacTavish should be sent packing before Torres.
Torres had 27 goals playing under Mac T last year. We have the same coach as last year, and Torres has sucked hard essentially all year other than a couple 5-10 game stretches. I don't blame the coach, especially since Torres has had success with Mac T before. The only problem I see with Torres is he doesn't try consistantly. His offense isn't getting stifled under Mac T, he just doesn't play his game which makes him good most of the time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smyth2Hemsky View Post
Torres is hurting himself by not being physical since the Williams hit. Other teams think Torres is a cheap shot (Vancouver, San Jose to name a few). The hit on Williams in which Williams got injured really hurt Torres emotionally. He hasn't been the same since then. He's afraid to hit fearing someone will get injured. He has to get over that fear ASAP.
Torres sucked before that, he had 2 goals and 6 points in the 15 games prior to the game against Detroit, that Williams hit had nothing to do with Torres struggles which started at the start of the year.

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03-25-2007, 11:24 PM
  #29
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I am still hoping the kid can pull it out of the burner

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03-25-2007, 11:54 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spawn View Post
Torres sucked before that, he had 2 goals and 6 points in the 15 games prior to the game against Detroit, that Williams hit had nothing to do with Torres struggles which started at the start of the year.
I'm talking about hitting not scoring. He seems to be timid since that incident.

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03-26-2007, 01:41 AM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spawn View Post
Torres had 27 goals playing under Mac T last year. We have the same coach as last year, and Torres has sucked hard essentially all year other than a couple 5-10 game stretches. I don't blame the coach, especially since Torres has had success with Mac T before. The only problem I see with Torres is he doesn't try consistantly. His offense isn't getting stifled under Mac T, he just doesn't play his game which makes him good most of the time.
I never said that MacT stifled Torres' offence at all and certainly did not mean to imply it. In fact I have done my best in the past to try and dispel the misconception that MacTavish stifles player' offence, something that many people seem to believe. I do question however MacTavish's role in the team having such an absence of physical play. The tools are there in terms of our players, but I have yet to see MacTavish ice a team that plays a physical game on a consistant basis. Sure he talks publicly of playing physically, but it seems that he has his team play a system that leaves little room for an aggressive, physical style. Plus, he has already come out publicly against fighting in the NHL. Something I don't agree with, but the fact that he said it makes me wonder whether he places much emphasis on playing a hard-nosed, rugged style. Like I said before, I've seen this team get pushed around by smaller teams, and I've found it embarrassing. I don't think you can pin that on one or two players.

Secondly, I question decisions like pulling Jussi after one goal and then criticizing him for it afterwards publicly. His alleged attitude towards Bergeron. His refusal to play Winchester, even to the point of playing inexperienced rookies instead of him. All of these things make me wonder whether MacTavish is the type of coach who could help someone who has lost their confidence.

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03-26-2007, 01:49 AM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnus View Post
I never said that MacT stifled Torres' offence at all and certainly did not mean to imply it. In fact I have done my best in the past to try and dispel the misconception that MacTavish stifles player' offence, something that many people seem to believe. I do question however MacTavish's role in the team having such an absence of physical play. The tools are there in terms of our players, but I have yet to see MacTavish ice a team that plays a physical game on a consistant basis. Sure he talks publicly of playing physically, but it seems that he has his team play a system that leaves little room for an aggressive, physical style. Plus, he has already come out publicly against fighting in the NHL. Something I don't agree with, but the fact that he said it makes me wonder whether he places much emphasis on playing a hard-nosed, rugged style. Like I said before, I've seen this team get pushed around by smaller teams, and I've found it embarrassing. I don't think you can pin that on one or two players.

Secondly, I question decisions like pulling Jussi after one goal and then criticizing him for it afterwards publicly. His alleged attitude towards Bergeron. His refusal to play Winchester, even to the point of playing inexperienced rookies instead of him. All of these things make me wonder whether MacTavish is the type of coach who could help someone who has lost their confidence.
Jussi didn't have a good warmup that morning. He also had the flu so MacT most likelyl pulled him thinking he wasn't feeling to well. There is a big difference between being physical and fighting. The Oil had 27 hits vs the Preds on Saturday. They were physical, especially Jason Smith. I don't mind the odd fight but when players get injured in fights is when I draw the line. There's too many players getting injured as is and they don't need the risk of getting injured in fights.

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Old
03-26-2007, 03:04 AM
  #33
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I would be dealing him if the off ice "rumours", which I'm sure most of you have heard about, are true. I've been wondering this season if the thing that is "rumoured" is becoming a bad problem, however who even knows if he does that "rumoured" stuff in the first place . I really hope not because he still has the potential to be a 30 goal guy in this league if put with the right people. I don't think he fits Mac T's system very well either.

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03-26-2007, 03:10 AM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smyth2Hemsky View Post
Torres is hurting himself by not being physical since the Williams hit. Other teams think Torres is a cheap shot (Vancouver, San Jose to name a few). The hit on Williams in which Williams got injured really hurt Torres emotionally. He hasn't been the same since then. He's afraid to hit fearing someone will get injured. He has to get over that fear ASAP.
It's not that he hurt Williams.....it's that Mac T benched him and said "Raffi, we've got to keep you away from there tough guys" and Raffi looked at the 4th line and said to himself "my coach fears that Mikael Samuelsson and Jiri Hudler are gonna beat me down....wow, I must be the biggest p***y in the league!!!"

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03-26-2007, 05:22 AM
  #35
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Well, you're an idiot.
Thankfully we don't have a coach on you guidelines, otherwise you'd trade away Lafleur, Maurice Richard among countless other players today including Phaneuf and Kiprusoff.

But well done on the self righteousness.

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03-26-2007, 09:47 AM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ari Gold View Post
It's not that he hurt Williams.....it's that Mac T benched him and said "Raffi, we've got to keep you away from there tough guys" and Raffi looked at the 4th line and said to himself "my coach fears that Mikael Samuelsson and Jiri Hudler are gonna beat me down....wow, I must be the biggest p***y in the league!!!"
The rumour I heard is that Torres wasn't into the game from the hit and asked if he could take a break from playing. He was visually upset that Williams got injured.

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03-26-2007, 12:08 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smyth2Hemsky View Post
The rumour I heard is that Torres wasn't into the game from the hit and asked if he could take a break from playing. He was visually upset that Williams got injured.
uhhhhhhhhhh, when I said that, I thought it was self explanitory, but since it's not, next time I'll put this symbol at the end:

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03-26-2007, 12:25 PM
  #38
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just wait till (if....sniff) stoll comes back...

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03-26-2007, 12:38 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by philthy mcnasty View Post
He's a headcase and I question whether he'll ever get his act together.

He goes out and parties waaaay too much.

He drinks and smokes too much.

He does too many drugs.

But I still wouldn't trade Tico cuz he has his moments of brilliance, seemingly always at times when it counts the most.
Perhaps you should try reading this before you post junk like this:
http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=361551

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03-26-2007, 01:13 PM
  #40
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If someone is asking for Torres in a trade for something that will genuinely improve our team, then I'd trade him. But there's no way I'd trade Torres, just for the sake of trading him. He's not a player that "needs to go" by any stretch of the imagination, but he's not untouchable either.

I voted undecided because I don't want him gone, but I'd be willing to trade him for the right return. Especially if we could go out and sign Hartnell to replace him.

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03-26-2007, 02:39 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnus View Post
Perhaps you should try reading this before you post junk like this:
http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=361551
Yea I figured, my bad I guess. But it is the truth, and it's not like many people don't already know.

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03-26-2007, 05:36 PM
  #42
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I voted undecided because I don't want him gone, but I'd be willing to trade him for the right return. Especially if we could go out and sign Hartnell to replace him.
Funny you say that.

Torres has played tougher opposition recently and on a far worse team this year anyway and he's still got better numbers at even strength over the past four seasons. Torres is crap on the PP, but Hartnell's numbers there are awful too.

Personally I think replacing a player that's probably going to have a sub-$2MM contract with a guy that will get a $3MM+ contract and that has produced less, is probably a bad idea. What do you think?

In terms of bang for the buck, it's pretty hard to argue with Torres in this case.

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03-26-2007, 06:01 PM
  #43
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Trade both stiffs Lupul and Torres. Neither of them have any intelligence or instinct to really play the game effectively.
Trade them for real talents like Zherdev or Vyborny, asap.

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03-26-2007, 06:40 PM
  #44
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Guys, we can't post ANYTHING with references to players personal lifes. It's libel, plain and simple.

Best remove this thread, Mods.

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03-26-2007, 06:45 PM
  #45
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Funny you say that.

Torres has played tougher opposition recently and on a far worse team this year anyway and he's still got better numbers at even strength over the past four seasons. Torres is crap on the PP, but Hartnell's numbers there are awful too.

Personally I think replacing a player that's probably going to have a sub-$2MM contract with a guy that will get a $3MM+ contract and that has produced less, is probably a bad idea. What do you think?

In terms of bang for the buck, it's pretty hard to argue with Torres in this case.
You're arguing against a point I didn't make. I wasn't saying anything about Hartnell being the better player. I'm ok with trading Torres, just not for the sake of trading him. And if we did trade him, I think Hartnell would be an excellent replacement, considering they're both comparable players, and Hartnell would only cost money to aquire.

Of course, I would take Hartnell over Torres, despite what the stats may say.

Torres has only started to play more difficult minutes this year (well, he did in the playoffs last year, but he was playing on a line with Pisani and Peca which was sure to help his ES+/-), and look at how well the team has played with him carrying the mail this season. He also had his best results against difficult minutes when he was playing with Pisani (always a good ES performer) and Stoll, who was playing out of his mind, during the period where Smyth and Hemsky were both out of the lineup. I haven't looked at the numbers, but I'd have to think he's been performing less favorably since then. I also have to think that if we didn't have half a dozen rookie forwards in the lineup, that he'd be facing the level of competition he has been lately.

Anyway, I'm a big fan of Torres, and I don't want to see him playing for another team, but I defeinately don't consider him untouchable.

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03-26-2007, 06:58 PM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RiversQ View Post
Funny you say that.

Torres has played tougher opposition recently and on a far worse team this year anyway and he's still got better numbers at even strength over the past four seasons. Torres is crap on the PP, but Hartnell's numbers there are awful too.

Personally I think replacing a player that's probably going to have a sub-$2MM contract with a guy that will get a $3MM+ contract and that has produced less, is probably a bad idea. What do you think?

In terms of bang for the buck, it's pretty hard to argue with Torres in this case.
Torres past 3 seasons
238 GP 61 goals 47 assists 108 points +13

Hartnell past 3 seasons
202 GP 65 goals 53 assists 118 points +21

Unless I'm misreading your post (I could be ) In what way has Hartnell produced less than Torres? More goals, more assists, more points in fewer games. Not to mention Hartnell is younger.

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03-26-2007, 07:16 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by matmik View Post
Trade both stiffs Lupul and Torres. Neither of them have any intelligence or instinct to really play the game effectively.
Trade them for real talents like Zherdev or Vyborny, asap.
Nice solution! I'm not going to lie to you man, Lupul and Zherdev are mirror images of each other this season, I don't really get how you can beat on Lupul like that and then talk like Zherdev would be the answer....watch some Columbus games.

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03-26-2007, 07:38 PM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spawn View Post
Torres past 3 seasons
238 GP 61 goals 47 assists 108 points +13

Hartnell past 3 seasons
202 GP 65 goals 53 assists 118 points +21

Unless I'm misreading your post (I could be ) In what way has Hartnell produced less than Torres? More goals, more assists, more points in fewer games. Not to mention Hartnell is younger.
He only said he has produced less at even strength, so I'm assuming Hartnell has had far more points on the powerplay. He also has apparently been playing tougher competition than Hartnell, but I would suspect that's only been the case this season, and only because of all the injuries and rookies we've had this year.

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03-26-2007, 07:38 PM
  #49
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Torres has only started to play more difficult minutes this year (well, he did in the playoffs last year, but he was playing on a line with Pisani and Peca which was sure to help his ES+/-), and look at how well the team has played with him carrying the mail this season. He also had his best results against difficult minutes when he was playing with Pisani (always a good ES performer) and Stoll...
This is pretty much true. Aside from a marvelous December where Pisani/Torres/Stoll were playing out of their minds (something close to +6 ES), Torres has been up and down the rest of the time. That's not saying he's been bad, mind you, but he's been hovering around the even mark for most of the year overall. I'd say that isn't half bad considering how poor a March it has been for the club.

He's still clearly in the upper echelon of our remaining forward this year.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spawn View Post
Unless I'm misreading your post (I could be ) In what way has Hartnell produced less than Torres? More goals, more assists, more points in fewer games. Not to mention Hartnell is younger.
I think Riv meant that they're not all that different. The only significant different being that Hartnell would be a UFA and would come at a higher price. If they're comparable and Torres (as a RFA) is going to be cheaper, trading Torres for the sole reason of adding Hartnell wouldn't be prudent. Hence, the bang for buck comment he made.

Of course, that's not taking into account what Torres would bring in terms of a trade.

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03-26-2007, 08:12 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by RiversQ View Post
I could write a freaking book on the topic at this point. Their results this year aren't even remotely close - Lupul lags behind in almost every category.

Do you really want me to go there? I can provide numerous pieces of evidence over the past two seasons to support Torres over Lupul.
Torres has the better numbers this season. He has less Ice time than any other top 9 forward on the team. You can bash him all you want but the more people do the more they show their lack of knowledge of the game. He gets pucks out of the corner better than any other player. He is the only player that seems to notice the point men out there in the offensive zone and oh yeah had the best plus minus for most of the season. If your going to pick on a player that has serios flaws in his game you need to look at Lupul and Horc, neither player is remotely sound in his own zone and both players can't score on their own. When Torres got top line minutes when hemmer and Smyth were hurt, he went on a 12 game point streak, where was Lupul or Horcs 12 game streak this year?

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