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Old
03-27-2007, 10:13 AM
  #1
MightyOil
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Painted into a corner

In response to the lurking thread, I thought I would post a new one. Yes I've been
lurking alot too, but its more fun to have a topic to talk about.

We all know how badly this season has gone and literally since game 7 of the SCF everything that could go wrong has. Seriously, I have never seen a team with
this bad of Karma, from the MVP wanting out to trading the most popular player, to
the entire team getting hurt, everything has gone wrong.

Public sentiment among the general fan base is turning vicious. Don't get me wrong, the fans love this team and will continue to cheer for them, but the venom spewing from most vans mouths is getting worse by the day.

I light of all what has happened, Lowe continues to paint a rosy picture. Always saying look to the future, our great dman is just a trade away, a big splash is coming this summer, expect the unexpected. Understandibly he has to do this publically otherwise he would just be cursing out the mirror, which would do nothing to help the situation.

I for one do not believe in the conspiracy that the organization wants to fail so that
they can get a new arena. I believe the team does have a budget but wants to make the playoffs and go deep in the playoffs for all the added revenue.

So I ask, with all that has gone wrong, how low oiler nations spirits have gotten, with all Lowe is promising, has he painted himself into a corner. Must he do something big in the offseason to save his job?

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03-27-2007, 10:19 AM
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Lowe has to keep positive in his comments, it's called public relations.

Kevin Lowe isn't the teddy bear that maybe people think he is. The guy is a fierce competitior and I would probably guess there were more than a few four letter words uttered under his breath as the whole Pronger situation was going down.

We've just had some bad breaks this year, there's no "conspiracy". If the Oilers wanted a new arena having another Cup run this year would've been the best case to make for one.

There will be a new arena built anyway (sooner or later). Edmonton with its growing population needs a new one even for things like concerts, not just the Oilers.

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03-27-2007, 10:26 AM
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Jimmi McJenkins
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MightyOil View Post
In response to the lurking thread, I thought I would post a new one. Yes I've been
lurking alot too, but its more fun to have a topic to talk about.

We all know how badly this season has gone and literally since game 7 of the SCF everything that could go wrong has. Seriously, I have never seen a team with
this bad of Karma, from the MVP wanting out to trading the most popular player, to
the entire team getting hurt, everything has gone wrong.

Public sentiment among the general fan base is turning vicious. Don't get me wrong, the fans love this team and will continue to cheer for them, but the venom spewing from most vans mouths is getting worse by the day.

I light of all what has happened, Lowe continues to paint a rosy picture. Always saying look to the future, our great dman is just a trade away, a big splash is coming this summer, expect the unexpected. Understandibly he has to do this publically otherwise he would just be cursing out the mirror, which would do nothing to help the situation.

I for one do not believe in the conspiracy that the organization wants to fail so that
they can get a new arena. I believe the team does have a budget but wants to make the playoffs and go deep in the playoffs for all the added revenue.

So I ask, with all that has gone wrong, how low oiler nations spirits have gotten, with all Lowe is promising, has he painted himself into a corner. Must he do something big in the offseason to save his job?
I would say yes with a but, I think it's more then just the off season. I think next season will be a telling one for Lowe. If the team is poor and he could have helped it, he's in hot soup in my oppinion.

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03-27-2007, 10:31 AM
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OntOilFan
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Lowe will die as GM.

The Oilers organization is like the Canadian Senate. It's a retirement home.

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03-27-2007, 10:32 AM
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Soundwave
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He'll step down if they're aren't major improvements made next year anyway IMO.

Lowe seems to be a high stress type of guy, I don't see him sticking around if it's going to take a toll on his health. We can shut the game off and go out with friends or go see a movie or whatever and forget about a tough loss or even a tough season. With a GM though, it's a lot harder I think to detach yourself in that fashion.

It's hard to argue against these 2 certain facts:

1.) Lowe built a Cup contender (hell, we were one game within the Cup). As a reward for that, the franchise cornerstone, Chris Pronger demands a trade. No other GM had to deal with this kind of situation. You're supposed to be rewarded for success, not the other way around.

2.) The UFA market for defensemen this summer was pretty crappy. And we did make offers to Chara and Spacek. Probably a good thing Spacek did not sign actually, not sure if we'd want to be stuck with his contract.


Last edited by Soundwave: 03-27-2007 at 10:39 AM.
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Old
03-27-2007, 10:39 AM
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Jimmi McJenkins
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OntOilFan View Post
Lowe will die as GM.

The Oilers organization is like the Canadian Senate. It's a retirement home.
Example?

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03-27-2007, 10:41 AM
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copperandblue
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Originally Posted by MightyOil View Post
Public sentiment among the general fan base is turning vicious. Don't get me wrong, the fans love this team and will continue to cheer for them, but the venom spewing from most vans mouths is getting worse by the day.

....

So I ask, with all that has gone wrong, how low oiler nations spirits have gotten, with all Lowe is promising, has he painted himself into a corner. Must he do something big in the offseason to save his job?
If you are using places like HF as guage I would suggest that there is more over reaction found here than there is in the general public. The disappointment is probably similar but the venom doesn't seem to be.

As for Lowe, I don't think his job needs saving. Based on the performance of the team he clearly had a crappy year but based on some of the tough decisions that needed to be made he has shown that he is very capable imo. Some of them have been forced on him and some he made on his own. I actually give him credit for some of his choices because he clearly isn't affraid to put himself in the cross hairs of the upset fan in order to do what he feels he needs to and as a GM you need to be willing to do just that.

That said, making the tough decision and turning it into the right move are two different things and the jury is still out on the latter. I don't think his job needs saving this year but I think the clock has officially started to tick in terms of proving he can turn this thing around in a smart calculated way.

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03-27-2007, 10:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OntOilFan View Post
Lowe will die as GM.

The Oilers organization is like the Canadian Senate. It's a retirement home.
I dunno, with Lowe's contract up at the end of next year combined with the utter disaster this season has become, IMO his job security has never been more tenuous.

Stauffer's mentioned more than once that more than 1 member of the EIG was not in favour of renewing MacT's contract, perhaps they feel the only way to get rid of the coach is to jettison his #1 backer?

And now that #1 backer is in a potentially vulnerable position, whose popularity among the ticket buying public has never been lower.

Make no mistake, Lowe is under the gun starting now.

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03-27-2007, 11:43 AM
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This is a very important off-season for Lowe. I will have alot of time to assess things and he has a lot of assets he can turn other assets out of.

Lowe's a pround guy and he knows he's taking a beating on blogs, message boards, on TV on the radio and in the print media. I think he wants to prove alot of people wrong. I think it's only human nature.

Also, he won't really have any excuses after this offseason. What I mean by this is that this year, he could always play the Pronger card, that Pronger leaving set this org back a few years, etc....Plus, Lowe has alot of assets, whether it's draft picks this year for what is turning out to be a pretty decent draft (from what I am reading) minor league players close to making the jump and roster players (Torres, Lupul, etc). Lowe can't keep saying that he's stockpiling assets. After a certain time, something has to give. I cheer for the Oilers, not potential Oilers.

My gut feeling is that Lowe will deliver. Something tells me it's going to be a good summer to be an Oiler fan.

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03-27-2007, 11:54 AM
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MightyOil
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Originally Posted by Yanner39 View Post
This is a very important off-season for Lowe. I will have alot of time to assess things and he has a lot of assets he can turn other assets out of.

Lowe's a pround guy and he knows he's taking a beating on blogs, message boards, on TV on the radio and in the print media. I think he wants to prove alot of people wrong. I think it's only human nature.

Also, he won't really have any excuses after this offseason. What I mean by this is that this year, he could always play the Pronger card, that Pronger leaving set this org back a few years, etc....Plus, Lowe has alot of assets, whether it's draft picks this year for what is turning out to be a pretty decent draft (from what I am reading) minor league players close to making the jump and roster players (Torres, Lupul, etc). Lowe can't keep saying that he's stockpiling assets. After a certain time, something has to give. I cheer for the Oilers, not potential Oilers.

My gut feeling is that Lowe will deliver. Something tells me it's going to be a good summer to be an Oiler fan.
I agree with this sentiment which is why I asked the question. If he does nothing, then fans that have this opinion, will turn on him and I believe his tenure will be over.

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03-27-2007, 12:11 PM
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Yeah, i'm hoping Lowe can deliver his hints, because he's been dropping them like bricks everywhere he gets the chance. He's mentioned we are going to go for an RFA for a cash strapped team a million times, i dunno, it just seems pretty bold to say it out in the open. But all in all, i think Lowe has done a damn good job, and i hope he does deliver this offseason and keeps his job, i like a level-headed GM at the helm, didn't overpay for a D-man, didn't fold into Smyth's contract, and all of those takes guts, and Lowe has shown he has some. This offseason, i hope he fixes our problems in Defence and Offence, this stock-piling of assests has gone for a long time, too long IMO, time to become a contender.

I trust Lowe to do nothing stupid, and like Yanner mentioned, im thinking it might be a good summer for Oil fans, lets hope it is, because i'm sick of mediocrity, and to quote 300: "Its time for Glory".

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03-27-2007, 12:15 PM
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Absolutely, Lowe has painted himself into a corner for this summer.

Now he is forced to make a big signing or trade, but I think he is more than capable of pulling it off. The question that will remain until the season begins is "how effectively will the move improve the on ice product?".

I'm doubtful we will see a dramatic improvement in our performance next year.

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03-27-2007, 12:46 PM
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Lowe will NEVER get fired. The Oilers organization is a country club of retired and incompetant former Oilers
MacT, Bucky, Semenko, Simpson, Huddy, Lowe, Musil, Nilson probably a lot more that I can't think of. Our many, many years of mediocrity indicate the painfull lack of accountability to Oilers management and front office.

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03-27-2007, 01:39 PM
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MightyOil
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Absolutely, Lowe has painted himself into a corner for this summer.

Now he is forced to make a big signing or trade, but I think he is more than capable of pulling it off. The question that will remain until the season begins is "how effectively will the move improve the on ice product?".

I'm doubtful we will see a dramatic improvement in our performance next year.
And if the results are the same, is he finished as the GM come summer 2008?

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03-27-2007, 02:09 PM
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Example?
Barry Fraser.

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03-27-2007, 02:12 PM
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Jimmi McJenkins
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Barry Fraser.
He died before they let him go?

Sather and Pock that is.

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03-27-2007, 03:01 PM
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I agree with this sentiment which is why I asked the question. If he does nothing, then fans that have this opinion, will turn on him and I believe his tenure will be over.
I think the GM's job in to make the team better, regardless on the constraints that are put in front of him. Sather new when he was losing all his players in the early '90s that we has going to have to deal with being what came to be known as a "Small-market" team. He had to deal with that and he did making good deals. His regime didn't draft to well but that has been documented.

Lowe needs to make his team better. If he doesn't then he should get fired or his contract should be renewed. Same goes for Muckler in Ottawa, or Burke in Anaheim, or Clarke in Philly..oh wait...

The fact that Pronger supposedly put this franchise back a few years for me is just an excuse. Some would argue that that Lowe traded Pronger to quickly and that's fine, but he did have all summer to better his team and he didn't. He took another gamble with a weak defense and it blew up in his face.

Now, he will have 7 months to get this franchise back on track. I'm not saying the Oilers need to win the cup next year, but they have to be competitive. Hearing little comments like Laforge made a few weeks ago saying that he doesn't think the Oilers will contend next season pisses me off.

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03-27-2007, 03:25 PM
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The fact that Pronger supposedly put this franchise back a few years for me is just an excuse.
Your right in that the Pronger thing doesn't give him an excuse for a few years but is one year really all that unrealistic?

Pronger's departure did set the team back. Spacek basically said that it was an infuencing factor in his decision to sign in Buffalo. Lowe's problems were front and center in the spotlight last summer because of the Oilers run and their subsequent soap opera summer. Every GM in the league saw that Lowe needed to basically rebuild his defence all the while trying to maintain resemblance of competitiveness that is expected from a Cup finalist. It's only smart business to raise the price when the percieved demand is there.

That said, Lowe is in a vastly different situation right now. He is back under the radar. He has tonne of youth to play with and some servicable vets to dangle if needed. He has three first rounders to offer up and most importantly he has no one that he has to move. As a GM the only pressure on him is to improve the team and that is a very favourable position at a time when most GM's are primarily dealing with contract issues as well as trying to improve their teams.

Pronger did bugger things up this year but your right, from this point forward it is nothing but an excuse.

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03-27-2007, 03:33 PM
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I'll agree with this

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Originally Posted by Soundwave View Post

Kevin Lowe isn't the teddy bear that maybe people think he is. The guy is a fierce competitior and I would probably guess there were more than a few four letter words uttered under his breath as the whole Pronger situation was going down.
4 letter words like "**** me harder Brian" as the Pronger deal was completed.

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03-27-2007, 03:35 PM
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Your right in that the Pronger thing doesn't give him an excuse for a few years but is one year really all that unrealistic?

Pronger's departure did set the team back. Spacek basically said that it was an infuencing factor in his decision to sign in Buffalo. Lowe's problems were front and center in the spotlight last summer because of the Oilers run and their subsequent soap opera summer. Every GM in the league saw that Lowe needed to basically rebuild his defence all the while trying to maintain resemblance of competitiveness that is expected from a Cup finalist. It's only smart business to raise the price when the percieved demand is there.

That said, Lowe is in a vastly different situation right now. He is back under the radar. He has tonne of youth to play with and some servicable vets to dangle if needed. He has three first rounders to offer up and most importantly he has no one that he has to move. As a GM the only pressure on him is to improve the team and that is a very favourable position at a time when most GM's are primarily dealing with contract issues as well as trying to improve their teams.

Pronger did bugger things up this year but your right, from this point forward it is nothing but an excuse.
Rather than use it as an excuse, a better question is why ddi'nt we hold out on the Pronger deal until we could make a deal that would see us recieve a Dman of some note. That, in itself, was Lowe's biggest error. The Oilers went into the year with a glaring error and we are paying the price for it. Lowes done that in the past with how he had a team last year with no goaltending. Same idea, he just didnt get burned as badly then since he had Pronger to lean on.

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03-27-2007, 03:46 PM
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Rather than use it as an excuse, a better question is why ddi'nt we hold out on the Pronger deal until we could make a deal that would see us recieve a Dman of some note. That, in itself, was Lowe's biggest error. The Oilers went into the year with a glaring error and we are paying the price for it. Lowes done that in the past with how he had a team last year with no goaltending. Same idea, he just didnt get burned as badly then since he had Pronger to lean on.
People around here have been arguing about the return since the day the trade happened and the fact is no one knows what other offers were on the table and how they compared to what Lowe actually pulled the trigger for, so what is the point of debating it even further?

The more significant question is wether or not Pronger's value was likely to go up or down if Lowe sat on the deal and waited for more.

Personally I can't see a scenario where his value goes up.

The value never looks right when a team is forced to move a star player.

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03-27-2007, 04:03 PM
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People around here have been arguing about the return since the day the trade happened and the fact is no one knows what other offers were on the table and how they compared to what Lowe actually pulled the trigger for, so what is the point of debating it even further?

The more significant question is wether or not Pronger's value was likely to go up or down if Lowe sat on the deal and waited for more.

Personally I can't see a scenario where his value goes up.

The value never looks right when a team is forced to move a star player.
first off anyone would agree his value would have gone up. Just look at the premium on Dmen this year (Rivet, Stuart). Look at the contracts handed out to Dmen last summer.... With dmen being such an important commodity in the new NHL (as it would seem) we had the best dman and got a meagre return for him.
All that being what it is, another important issue is the return we got. We absolutely, critically needed a Dman who could play effectively in the top 3 and did'nt get it. Lowe started the year without a single guy who can play in the top 3 on an NHL team. And we wondered why The Hockey News picked us to finish out of the playoffs. And like I said before, Lowe's done this before when he gambled and lost on goaltending...

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03-27-2007, 04:21 PM
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first off anyone would agree his value would have gone up. Just look at the premium on Dmen this year (Rivet, Stuart). Look at the contracts handed out to Dmen last summer.... With dmen being such an important commodity in the new NHL (as it would seem) we had the best dman and got a meagre return for him.
I would argue that his value would have only dropped and neither the Rivet example or the Stuart example are proof otherwise.

The contracts handed out last summer is one of the reasons why his return would have dropped further. Once the money is committed, there aren't a whole lot of teams willing to take on 6 mil in salary long term wether it's a bargain or not and from Lowes perspective, trading salaries just to move a commodity is bad form.

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All that being what it is, another important issue is the return we got. We absolutely, critically needed a Dman who could play effectively in the top 3 and did'nt get it. Lowe started the year without a single guy who can play in the top 3 on an NHL team. And we wondered why The Hockey News picked us to finish out of the playoffs. And like I said before, Lowe's done this before when he gambled and lost on goaltending...
How do you know that Lowe didn't get a top 3 defenceman? Smid may not have been one this year but I would rather watch a guy grow for a year and struggle than settle for someone the likes of the suddenly popular but mediocre Markov or Erat.

On one hand guys around here argue that the Oilers have been mediocre for far too long and then on the other they argue for instant, albeit average, gratification in getting guys that would be a marginal improvement at best. Personally I don't get it.

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03-27-2007, 04:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bleed_oil View Post
first off anyone would agree his value would have gone up. Just look at the premium on Dmen this year (Rivet, Stuart). Look at the contracts handed out to Dmen last summer.... With dmen being such an important commodity in the new NHL (as it would seem) we had the best dman and got a meagre return for him.
...

Well the difference being, the whole NHL knew we would have to eventually trade Pronger, as he forced our hand, while Rivet and Stuart were no 'locks' to being traded, they could either be traded or not, it didn't matter, while it was 100% certain Pronger was going to be. It mean't GM's had a huge advantage over Lowe, i think sitting might have decreased his value more than anything. JMO.

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03-27-2007, 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by copperandblue View Post
I would argue that his value would have only dropped and neither the Rivet example or the Stuart example are proof otherwise.

The contracts handed out last summer is one of the reasons why his return would have dropped further. Once the money is committed, there aren't a whole lot of teams willing to take on 6 mil in salary long term wether it's a bargain or not and from Lowes perspective, trading salaries just to move a commodity is bad form.
Wow, you would actually propose that not many teams woudl be willing take on Pronger at 6million/yr for 5 years? I can't imagine many teams who wouldnt If you cant fit him under the cap, getting the best Dman in the world at that bargain, I imagine most GM's would make room for him.


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How do you know that Lowe didn't get a top 3 defenceman? Smid may not have been one this year but I would rather watch a guy grow for a year and struggle than settle for someone the likes of the suddenly popular but mediocre Markov or Erat.

On one hand guys around here argue that the Oilers have been mediocre for far too long and then on the other they argue for instant, albeit average, gratification in getting guys that would be a marginal improvement at best. Personally I don't get it.
How do I know, Did you watch many games this year? Smid is a good prospect but a long, long way from being a top 3 guy. We needed a top 3 guy for this year and entering a season wihtout a single Dman who can play those minutes ensured that we would miss the playoffs regardless if what else happenend.
Your arguement abuot mediocrity and instant gratification is self defeating. The Oilers have never gone for instant gratification (with the exception of the Pronger\Peca signings and that paid dividends)
Instead we get a lot more of what we've seen this year, truckloads of Grebreshkovs, late first round picks and O'Marras.. where has that gotten us... 15 years of complete mediocrity and a front office full of retired players.

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