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Token wet-blanket topic: GMDM revisited - Where do you stand?

View Poll Results: Should GMDM be fired or allowed one more shot?
Fire him! 38 61.29%
Keep him! 24 38.71%
Voters: 62. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
03-30-2007, 10:48 AM
  #101
KeithBWhittington
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Fire Him. The Change behind the bench has brought results, so to will a change in the Front Office.

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03-30-2007, 03:53 PM
  #102
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As an outsider, I think he should be fired. Look at the other 3 expansion teams. They all have some sort of plan to go forward. The preds have been competetive for the last 2 years, Minny plays in a tough division and are always a handful, and the Thrashers look like a fun bunch. It looks like the team is in a never ending cycle, much like Florida and Phoenix are. They never really get better either. Look at the Canucks, they clean house with the GM the year before lockout, gave the core one more year to make a deep run, didn't make the playoffs, fired the coach, got rid of alot of players from last year (14) including 3 pieces to thier core of 6 and now they are a contending team again.

It seems like there are teams that continually improve on what they have, and if it doesn't work, they go another route, then there are some teams that will always be bottom feeders. If you don't change the culture of the team, how else are they going to improve? The Flyers fired Hitch and Bobby Clarke, they relaized they needed to start again. That's what good teams are always doing. There has to be some accountibility from the owners as well.

I was hoping CBJ were doing better as I picked 4 of them in my pool. I thought they would be a darkhorse team this year

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Old
03-30-2007, 06:24 PM
  #103
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Professional Sports General Managers and Presidents have been fired for a lot less than the lack of success Doug Maclean has had.

He's likely a good man, and has done a lot to bring NHL hockey to Columbus.
But it's time for more changes. I just hope the fans, players and media don't show less class than Maclean has when he finally moves on.

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Old
03-30-2007, 11:13 PM
  #104
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Speaking of which...I've heard more than a couple of people say they're going to boo him at the draft. Anyone else heard that?

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03-31-2007, 08:34 AM
  #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Mac View Post
...I just hope the fans, players and media don't show less class than Maclean has when he finally moves on.
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Originally Posted by 213 Sentinel View Post
Speaking of which...I've heard more than a couple of people say they're going to boo him at the draft.

I'd say there's your answer, Mr. Mac.

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03-31-2007, 09:57 AM
  #106
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It's a shame, really. I remember when all the Buffalo fans were here and I thought, "There's what we could conceivably turn into."

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Old
03-31-2007, 10:49 AM
  #107
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As an outsider...

I have to say that the McLean tenure at the Draft table has been terrible.

It was good to trade up and get Nash....but Bowmeester and Lehtonen, in hinsight, might be able to stabilize your team even more.

Pascal Leclair...ugh. Same for Picard.

Zherdev in a year that has spawned so many better...

Those draft picks were important assets for CBJ, and IMHO Doug Mclean has been disgraceful at the draft table.

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Old
03-31-2007, 11:00 AM
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mallard View Post
As an outsider...

I have to say that the McLean tenure at the Draft table has been terrible.

It was good to trade up and get Nash....but Bowmeester and Lehtonen, in hinsight, might be able to stabilize your team even more.

Pascal Leclair...ugh. Same for Picard.

Zherdev in a year that has spawned so many better...

Those draft picks were important assets for CBJ, and IMHO Doug Mclean has been disgraceful at the draft table.
Interesting insight Mallard, Any of us could make the same type of case, Nash did bloom quicker (arguably) than Lehtonen and Bowmeester though. Doug has "His" guys though, thats for sure.

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03-31-2007, 11:03 AM
  #109
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One more thing: If Hitchcock will be the this team's coach for the forseeable future, give him a lot of say if what player gets drafted, I just have a bad feeling about Hitch and Boyd arguing and MacLean having to mediate.

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Old
03-31-2007, 11:49 AM
  #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mallard View Post
As an outsider...

I have to say that the McLean tenure at the Draft table has been terrible.

It was good to trade up and get Nash....but Bowmeester and Lehtonen, in hinsight, might be able to stabilize your team even more.

Pascal Leclair...ugh. Same for Picard.

Zherdev in a year that has spawned so many better...

Those draft picks were important assets for CBJ, and IMHO Doug Mclean has been disgraceful at the draft table.

Mallard

I totally disagree with this but I'm not picking a fight. I love getting perspectives from people like yourself that support other teams. I just wholeheartedly disagree and Im not trying to be a homer.

00 Draft
We take Klesla 4th to build with Defense, he's a #3 NHL Dman with top 2 pairing potential. I dont see how anyone can argue that was a bad pick. Id take a #3 with top two potential any draft youd give it to me if I didnt have the top pick which we didnt. Edmonton took Torres 5th (3rd liner), Nashville took Hartnell 6th (not bad, but Ill take Rusty), Tampa took Alexeev 8th (dumped to Chicago). The only first rounder I would take over Rusty now is Frolov and he went 20th, so McLean wasnt the only one that passed him up.

01 Draft
We take Leclaire 8th, build from the goal out, maybe high for a goalie, but we are in our second year here. Leclaire, if healthy, is at least a great backup NHL goalie with the potential to be a very good #1. He's only 26/27 years old, jury is still out. Edmonton goes with Hemsky at 13 who I would probably take if I could do it over, but we needed a goalie for the future. The Rangers take Blackburn at 10?????? I wouldnt trade Leclaire for anyone else in that first round except maybe Hemsky.

02 Draft
We take Nash 1. He's a Rocket Richard winner and a first line LW on most teams in the league and hes what 23/24?. Lehtonen goes #2 but we already have Leclaire, and by the way, until this year, Lehtonen looked like Leclaire with all his injuries. Bowmeester goes 3rd but we need offense, Semin goes 13, Id like him but not over Nash and Higgins goes 14, again, I'd love to have him, but not over Nash. So there is no one I would trade for instead of Nash from this first round.

03 Draft
Your strongest argument here We take Nikki 4th. Id love to have Michalek (6 SJ), Suter (Nashville 7), Phaneuf (Calgary 9) or Parise (NJ 17). I would take any of those guys straight up for Nikki right now but we couldnt get them. But Nikki still has potential, dont write him off yet. And Atlanta took Coburn the spot before Phaneuf ***?? It aint just McLean, ask Atlanta if the draft is a crapshoot .

04 Draft
Trade down to get Picard 8 and Wharton 2nd round. Of course Id love to have Radulov (15th Nashville), Zajac (20th NJ), or Wolski (21 COL). But again, alot of teams passed on these guys too, not just McLean. And I wouldnt want anyone else from that first round besides the guys I mentioned other than Picard, ok maybe Smid too

Point being.

The draft is a crapshoot.

You can ride Mclean for alot of things but 1st round drafting is not one of them in my humble opinion.

Nashville and NJ are in a league of their own when it comes to drafting

We are just as good in round one as any other team in the league except Nashville and NJ and I would politely argue that with anyone

Good to have you on the board, hope you keep coming back

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Old
03-31-2007, 12:12 PM
  #111
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To add on to your post - Leclaire is only 24 and Nash is 22.

Our first round history isn't nearly as bad as Mallard alludes to. While I would certainly change some picks with hindsight being 20/20 -- outside of maybe Picard I think most teams would have picked the same players we did at our spots. The problem is why did guys like Zherdev and Nash regress this year -- thats what really concerns me.

At the same time its nice to finally start getting some solid contributions from later round picks like Tollefsen/Methot/Fritsche.

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03-31-2007, 12:37 PM
  #112
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I'd want Hamhuis and Phaneuf and that is it, the other picks have been fine.

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Old
03-31-2007, 12:46 PM
  #113
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Great post errey.

Bang on.

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Old
03-31-2007, 03:54 PM
  #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by errey21 View Post
Mallard

I totally disagree with this but I'm not picking a fight. I love getting perspectives from people like yourself that support other teams. I just wholeheartedly disagree and Im not trying to be a homer.

00 Draft
We take Klesla 4th to build with Defense, he's a #3 NHL Dman with top 2 pairing potential. I dont see how anyone can argue that was a bad pick. Id take a #3 with top two potential any draft youd give it to me if I didnt have the top pick which we didnt. Edmonton took Torres 5th (3rd liner), Nashville took Hartnell 6th (not bad, but Ill take Rusty), Tampa took Alexeev 8th (dumped to Chicago). The only first rounder I would take over Rusty now is Frolov and he went 20th, so McLean wasnt the only one that passed him up.

01 Draft
We take Leclaire 8th, build from the goal out, maybe high for a goalie, but we are in our second year here. Leclaire, if healthy, is at least a great backup NHL goalie with the potential to be a very good #1. He's only 26/27 years old, jury is still out. Edmonton goes with Hemsky at 13 who I would probably take if I could do it over, but we needed a goalie for the future. The Rangers take Blackburn at 10?????? I wouldnt trade Leclaire for anyone else in that first round except maybe Hemsky.

02 Draft
We take Nash 1. He's a Rocket Richard winner and a first line LW on most teams in the league and hes what 23/24?. Lehtonen goes #2 but we already have Leclaire, and by the way, until this year, Lehtonen looked like Leclaire with all his injuries. Bowmeester goes 3rd but we need offense, Semin goes 13, Id like him but not over Nash and Higgins goes 14, again, I'd love to have him, but not over Nash. So there is no one I would trade for instead of Nash from this first round.

03 Draft
Your strongest argument here We take Nikki 4th. Id love to have Michalek (6 SJ), Suter (Nashville 7), Phaneuf (Calgary 9) or Parise (NJ 17). I would take any of those guys straight up for Nikki right now but we couldnt get them. But Nikki still has potential, dont write him off yet. And Atlanta took Coburn the spot before Phaneuf ***?? It aint just McLean, ask Atlanta if the draft is a crapshoot .

04 Draft
Trade down to get Picard 8 and Wharton 2nd round. Of course Id love to have Radulov (15th Nashville), Zajac (20th NJ), or Wolski (21 COL). But again, alot of teams passed on these guys too, not just McLean. And I wouldnt want anyone else from that first round besides the guys I mentioned other than Picard, ok maybe Smid too

Point being.

The draft is a crapshoot.

You can ride Mclean for alot of things but 1st round drafting is not one of them in my humble opinion.

Nashville and NJ are in a league of their own when it comes to drafting

We are just as good in round one as any other team in the league except Nashville and NJ and I would politely argue that with anyone

Good to have you on the board, hope you keep coming back
Hey Errey....you are bang on. And of course the draft is a crapshoot so there is always going to be better hindsight alternatives. I don't have explanations for WHY some of these picks have not turned out....but at some point DM has to be accountable for the hindsight picks when none have turned in his favor. Here's a deeper look into why I feel DM didn't use his picks wisely.

00 Draft
The logical choice was, and IMHO, still is Klesla. I think he has taken some big steps forward this year and I think that his game is going to be one that gets better in leaps and bounds once he gets older and understands the nuances of the game. No problems with that pick. It would have been nice to get in the top three, but thems the breaks.

01 Draft
Here's where I think DM stumbled first. Obviously Leclair still has time to show his true potential and its also nice to start in net, but I think the acquisition of Marc Denis as one of his first moves should have allowed the drafting of a young goalie to wait. I kind of felt that DM wanted to appease his QMJHL roots too much on this pick. Its the same thing I felt with the Picard pick. Either way, if he was thier BPA at that slot, I think that was the wrong slot.

02 Draft
No complaints here. However, I do feel that at this point in time, maybe DM is feeling the heat to pick up a Heatley, or Gaborik, or Kovolchuk, like the other expansion teams. I obviously don't have access to CBJ's draft lists, but I kind of feel DM was painted into a corner making this pick. ie) even if he had Bouwmeester or Lehtonen pegged higher, he was too intent on getting the best forward in this draft to bother really analysing. But whatever, fact of the matter is that Nash is a stud and your best player, regardless of his so-so stats right now.

03
What can you do? Zherdev has been pegged at this point to be the most talented player in this draft for two years. I would not have done different. But I'm not a gm and DM is....and maybe he didn't do a personal profile or whatever....but I you just can't help thinking about the troubles you guys have had with him... and what Jeff Carter, Parise, or Phaneuf would be doing for CBJ right now.

04
The draft this year was not THAT strong, but again, just gut feel says this pick was wrong. It might have been expensive, and maybe he tried, but DM should have moved UP in this draft to land Barker. If not, Meszaros, Olesz, and Stafford look like good alternatives.

Either way Errey, I appreciate your counterarguments and I appreciate the polite tone of the CBJ posters. Its tough to have honest discussions when everytime you state an opinion you get lambasted and heckled

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Old
03-31-2007, 03:56 PM
  #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mallard View Post

01 Draft
Here's where I think DM stumbled first. Obviously Leclair still has time to show his true potential and its also nice to start in net, but I think the acquisition of Marc Denis as one of his first moves should have allowed the drafting of a young goalie to wait.
This is exactly how I felt when we made the pick

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03-31-2007, 07:39 PM
  #116
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Mallard

Thanks for the reply.

You are right, at some point, and for me its after next year, McLean will have to be held accountable if this franchise doesnt start to make/compete for the playoffs each year.

I for one think he has done a great job drafting in the first round, I also think that after the first couple of years his job of drafting in the later rounds compares to almost any team in the league (except Detriot or NJ but who's does?), and I could also see/agreed with at the time his trades/free agent signings over the years.

But even if you go draft by draft, trade by trade, signing by signing, and can defend each one, which I think I could for most of them, if all of that doesnt gel on the ice, which it has not for us, something needs to change in the organization above the player level so that leaves the coach or the GM.

We changed the coach this year to Hitch. I think/want to believe that not having a great coach has been a large part of the slow development of this franchise. Lemaire vs King, McLean, Gallant, Agnew. For me, its not hard to see why we havent matched our expansion bretheren's success on the ice even though on paper, I would take our roster over Minnesota's any day of the week.

Now we have a coach with the same type of success track record as Lemaire. So if the team doesnt gel on the ice next year, in my mind, we have isolated the problem holding the franchise back and its the GM.

Because I have always liked the pieces and just didnt feel they ever gelled, that is why I am for keeping the man who put together the pieces for one more year now that we have a coach who I think can finally make them gel.

I guess just like the draft, we will know once hindsight sets in if this is the way to go or not

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03-31-2007, 09:28 PM
  #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mallard View Post
01 Draft
Here's where I think DM stumbled first. Obviously Leclair still has time to show his true potential and its also nice to start in net, but I think the acquisition of Marc Denis as one of his first moves should have allowed the drafting of a young goalie to wait.
I think you've hit on something here that I consider one of Doug's weaknesses, and that is that he sometimes gets focused on one of the team's need points and overcompensates for it. I think this is one example, the handling of the Zherdev situation (knowing he needed a scorer, throwing Z's money at Carter and then signing Z after all...) this past summer would be another.

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04-01-2007, 12:45 AM
  #118
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The single thing that bothers me most is the Maclean coaching "philosophy." If you are going to forego the traditional development phase of Jrs/Minor hockey... at the very least you OWE your draft picks a capable and qualified teacher/coach. Klesla, Nash, Zherdev, Brule all needed and deserved to have a coach with an understanding/ability to teach mechanics, x and o strategy and install a system(s) in which our young players could learn, grow, and feel like contributing members of a team. Klesla almost got a chance to play for Dave King and maybe benefit from Kings coaching abilities... alas, Maclean was flighty and impatient and fired King before the youth he drafted could glean any benefit from King's tuteledge. It's been a constant uphill battle for our young players ever since. They'll catch up eventually - the damage done is not irreversible, but there is no substitute for qualified coaching and there are no shortcuts either. Six seasons and seven years seems like a lot of time/effort/resources wasted.

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04-01-2007, 08:48 AM
  #119
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The single thing that bothers me most is the Maclean coaching "philosophy." If you are going to forego the traditional development phase of Jrs/Minor hockey... at the very least you OWE your draft picks a capable and qualified teacher/coach. Klesla, Nash, Zherdev, Brule all needed and deserved to have a coach with an understanding/ability to teach mechanics, x and o strategy and install a system(s) in which our young players could learn, grow, and feel like contributing members of a team. Klesla almost got a chance to play for Dave King and maybe benefit from Kings coaching abilities... alas, Maclean was flighty and impatient and fired King before the youth he drafted could glean any benefit from King's tuteledge. It's been a constant uphill battle for our young players ever since. They'll catch up eventually - the damage done is not irreversible, but there is no substitute for qualified coaching and there are no shortcuts either. Six seasons and seven years seems like a lot of time/effort/resources wasted.


That's the biggest mystery of all. He seemed impatient and decided to let King go, then installed himself as coach (and could do no better...in fact, he was worse), then installed his buddy, GG, who seemed to have even less of a concept of player development and system play than GMDM. Try as I might, I cannot divine what DM was thinking.

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04-01-2007, 09:35 AM
  #120
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OFF THE GLASS: Blue Jackets president and GM Doug MacLean is being given a "50-50" chance by NHL insiders of returning to the Jackets next season. While MacLean hasn't gotten the club to the playoffs, his contract could protect him because it's believed it would cost $1.6 million (all terms US) for owner John McConnell to ask MacLean to move on. Still, the hiring of coach Ken Hitchcock could help MacLean if he can find a way to get the right players in place. He could also be simply booted upstairs and only serve as president. The Jackets have the worst cumulative record in the NHL since they joined the league and this will be the first year they'll finish within 40 points of first place in the Central Division.
http://www.ottawasun.com/Sports/Hock...87599-sun.html

Spector's take:

Quote:
Spector's Note: I believe hiring Hitchcock could be MacLean's saving grace, as the team has performed well under the coaching of the former Stars and Flyers bench boss.
http://spectorshockey.tripod.com/spe...e_rumours.html


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04-01-2007, 10:27 AM
  #121
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Spector's point would be more noteworthy if in fact DM had hired Hitch himself, but he didn't. The McConnells did.

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04-01-2007, 03:15 PM
  #122
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After todays manhandling of the Jackets by the Red Wings - that $1.6 million Maclean buyout fee is looking like a very, very small INVESTMENT in this club's future. I hate losing, I hate seeing my players suffer being completely neutralized in their ability to be effective on the ice, I hate seeing the young kids suffer their first taste of national public humiliation at Nationwide Arena.

Six seasons, seven years. Make it stop.

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04-01-2007, 04:03 PM
  #123
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After todays manhandling of the Jackets by the Red Wings - that $1.6 million Maclean buyout fee is looking like a very, very small INVESTMENT in this club's future. I hate losing, I hate seeing my players suffer being completely neutralized in their ability to be effective on the ice, I hate seeing the young kids suffer their first taste of national public humiliation at Nationwide Arena.

Six seasons, seven years. Make it stop.
$1.6M is nothing when you consider how much we paid Anson Carter, etc. Still, seems odd that they would let the date for automatic renewal pass only to decide to fire him a couple months later.

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04-01-2007, 04:17 PM
  #124
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$1.6M is nothing when you consider how much we paid Anson Carter, etc. Still, seems odd that they would let the date for automatic renewal pass only to decide to fire him a couple months later.
mmm "strange" maybe... but since the "evergreen clause" was never an option for the current year of the Maclean contract... what difference does it make at all? None, and particularly if it's decided the reason our club lost repeatedly and continually this season is not the fault of the players or the coach - but utlimately the GM. I don't mind that ownership took it's time to eliminate possible causes for this franchise's failure ... but, they will soon run of answers that don't start with "Doug Maclean..."

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04-01-2007, 08:32 PM
  #125
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The single thing that bothers me most is the Maclean coaching "philosophy." If you are going to forego the traditional development phase of Jrs/Minor hockey... at the very least you OWE your draft picks a capable and qualified teacher/coach. Klesla, Nash, Zherdev, Brule all needed and deserved to have a coach with an understanding/ability to teach mechanics, x and o strategy and install a system(s) in which our young players could learn, grow, and feel like contributing members of a team. Klesla almost got a chance to play for Dave King and maybe benefit from Kings coaching abilities... alas, Maclean was flighty and impatient and fired King before the youth he drafted could glean any benefit from King's tuteledge. It's been a constant uphill battle for our young players ever since. They'll catch up eventually - the damage done is not irreversible, but there is no substitute for qualified coaching and there are no shortcuts either. Six seasons and seven years seems like a lot of time/effort/resources wasted.
I love this post because I've said the same thing a thousand times (funny how it works that way).

The biggest problem with GG was that the young players were going virtually uncoached. I said it at the beginning of '05-'06 and the beginning of this season. Nash and Z were allowed to do whatever they wanted. Discipline wasn't even in the equation. It was extremely painful to watch.

The best thing that ever happened to this franchise was the hiring of Hitchcock. We have numerous young players that need teaching/coaching.

I don't think GMDM has drafted well (although that story hasn't totally unfolded yet), but his biggest fault was his inability to address the coaching situation. He was so blind to how bad the coaching has been that it's beyond amazing.

For that alone, he should have been fired a long time ago.

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