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5-10 all-time top 10 NHL greatest...

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Old
03-31-2007, 02:28 AM
  #1
Rorschach
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5-10 all-time top 10 NHL greatest...

I apologize in advance if this thread has been done before...


Ok just about everyone can agree that the top NHL four players (or at least three of the four) of all time are Gretzky, Orr, Howe and Lemieux, although you may disagree about the order.

But, who fills out the rest of top 10 for ya? Since this is a prospects board, lets limit the players to players already retired.

For me:

5: Sawchuk
6: Stastny
7: Roy
8: Messier
9: Bourque
10: Langway

- R

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Old
03-31-2007, 03:31 AM
  #2
seventieslord
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rorschach View Post
I apologize in advance if this thread has been done before...


Ok just about everyone can agree that the top NHL four players (or at least three of the four) of all time are Gretzky, Orr, Howe and Lemieux, although you may disagree about the order.

But, who fills out the rest of top 10 for ya? Since this is a prospects board, lets limit the players to players already retired.

For me:

5: Sawchuk
6: Stastny
7: Roy
8: Messier
9: Bourque
10: Langway

- R
I have no problem limiting it to players already retired. No one active belongs in the top 10 at this point.

5. Maurice Richard (best goal scorer of all-time and legendary playoff performer)
6. Doug Harvey (7 straight norris trophies puts him in Orr's league)
7. Jean Beliveau (the Mario Lemieux of the 50's and 60's... just not as good)
8. Bobby Hull (maybe next best goal scorer ever, dominated his position for 15 years)
9. Patrick Roy (best goalie ever surely has to be in the top 10)
10. Eddie Shore (two harts as a defenseman, toughest and most talented of his era)

honorable mentions can go to so many other players -

at forward, Mike Bossy, Bobby Clarke, Mark Messier, Howie Morenz, Nels Stewart, Ted Lindsay, Stan Mikita, Andy Bathgate, Jaromir Jagr, Joe Sakic, Steve Yzerman, Guy Lafleur, Phil Esposito, Frank Mahovlich, Bryan Trottier.

on defense, Ray Bourque, Denis Potvin, Red Kelly, Larry Robinson.

in goal, Dominik Hasek, Glenn Hall, Terry Sawchuk, Jacques Plante, Ken Dryden, Bill Durnan.

I personally can't see how you have Stastny over Richard, Hull, and Beliveau, or Langway over Harvey and Shore.

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Old
03-31-2007, 03:36 AM
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Maurice Richard (best goal scorer of all-time
Maurice Richard was the best goal scorer of all time?

What do you mean by "best"?

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Old
03-31-2007, 03:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Masao View Post
Maurice Richard was the best goal scorer of all time?

What do you mean by "best"?
Best in the way that he dominated his generation, also best in the way that he scored in the clutch. He played his whole career in an era where the league GAA was on par with the dead puck era of 1997-2004.

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Old
03-31-2007, 04:40 AM
  #5
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
10. Eddie Shore (two harts as a defenseman, toughest and most talented of his era)
four Hart's actually.

For me:

5. Eddie Shore
6. Jean Beliveau
7. Bobby Hull
8. Maurice Richard
9. Doug Harvey
10. Dominic Hasek

IMO 5-9 is much like 1-4. The order can be disputed, but the names, not so much. The 10th spot on the other hand, is WIDE open.

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Old
03-31-2007, 09:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Best in the way that he dominated his generation, also best in the way that he scored in the clutch. He played his whole career in an era where the league GAA was on par with the dead puck era of 1997-2004.
Not entirely true, he did post his 50/50 during the very weak war years (many feel his 45 in 60 games a few years later is more impressive).

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Old
03-31-2007, 10:04 AM
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Its much easier to make lists like this if it is done individually by a list of forwards, then a defenseman list, and then a goalie list.

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Old
03-31-2007, 11:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rorschach View Post
I apologize in advance if this thread has been done before...


Ok just about everyone can agree that the top NHL four players (or at least three of the four) of all time are Gretzky, Orr, Howe and Lemieux, although you may disagree about the order.

But, who fills out the rest of top 10 for ya? Since this is a prospects board, lets limit the players to players already retired.

For me:

5: Sawchuk
6: Stastny
7: Roy
8: Messier
9: Bourque
10: Langway

- R
Wow! Stastny has no business in the top 10 at all. Langway is not even in the top 200 ever. Putting in 2 goalies is interesting and those are 2 goalies who could legitimately argued as top 10 overall ever. Messier, Bourque probably aren't top 10 but they could be argued to be close to the top 10 by some.

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Old
03-31-2007, 12:24 PM
  #9
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Originally Posted by Cup 2007 Sens Rule! View Post
Wow! Stastny has no business in the top 10 at all. Langway is not even in the top 200 ever. Putting in 2 goalies is interesting and those are 2 goalies who could legitimately argued as top 10 overall ever. Messier, Bourque probably aren't top 10 but they could be argued to be close to the top 10 by some.
Uh, did you just say Langway was not even top 200 ever? lol

Im going to assume you meant 20 and hit a zero twice.

Langway the former norris winner might not be top 30, but for defensemen, he is definitely between 11th and 17th all time.

I agree about stastny

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Old
03-31-2007, 12:49 PM
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Its too hard to say who was more important all time, Goalie, Dman, Forward......

Easier to break it down into categories.

Forwards:
#1 Gretzky
#2 Lemieux
#3 Howe
#4 Kharlamov
#5 Beliveau
#6 Hull
#7 Lafleur
#8 Esposito
#9 Richard
#10 Bossy? Clarke? Messier?

Defense:
#1 Orr
#2 Shore
#3 Harvey
#4 Potvin
#5 Bourque
#6 Robinson
#7 Fetisov
#8 Park
#9 Lidstrom
#10 Kelly/Chelios

Goaltenders:
#1 Roy
#2 Sawchuk
#3 Hasek
#4 Tretiak
#5 Brodeur(May jump higher soon)
#6 Plante
#7 Dryden
#8 Starts to get harder here...

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Old
03-31-2007, 01:23 PM
  #11
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i agree mostly on seventieslord's list but i'd switch Beliveau with Richard and put in Hasek for Roy(i don't like him but no one can argue that he was a great playoff performer) but Hasek was just unbelieveable during his peak.

and for the goalies. what about Bernie Parent , Glen Hall and Bill Smith for the Spots #8-#10?

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Old
03-31-2007, 02:46 PM
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rorschach View Post
I apologize in advance if this thread has been done before...


Ok just about everyone can agree that the top NHL four players (or at least three of the four) of all time are Gretzky, Orr, Howe and Lemieux, although you may disagree about the order.

But, who fills out the rest of top 10 for ya? Since this is a prospects board, lets limit the players to players already retired.

For me:

5: Sawchuk
6: Stastny
7: Roy
8: Messier
9: Bourque
10: Langway

- R
1 Wayne Gretzky
2 Gordie Howe
3 Bobby Orr
4 Mario Lemieux
5 Jean Beliveau
6 Eddie Shore
7 Bobby Hull
8 Ray Bourque
9 Maurice "Rocket" Richard
10 Phil Esposito


Goalies are a whole other kettle of fish:

1 Glenn Hall
2 Patrick Roy
3 Terry Sawchuk
4 Ken Dryden
5 Dominik Hasek
6 Jacques Plante
7 Frank Brimsek
8 Martin Brodeur
9 Clint Benedict
10 Bill Durnan

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Old
03-31-2007, 02:54 PM
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1. Gretz
2. Orr
3. Mario
4. Howe
5. Harvey
6. Shore
7. Beliveau
8. Bobby Hull
9. Rocket
10. Messier

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Old
03-31-2007, 06:36 PM
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J0e Th0rnton View Post
Uh, did you just say Langway was not even top 200 ever? lol

Im going to assume you meant 20 and hit a zero twice.

Langway the former norris winner might not be top 30, but for defensemen, he is definitely between 11th and 17th all time.

I agree about stastny
Langway is not near top 11 all-time among D-Men. He was great and a HOFer with good merit but he is not one of the best players of All-time.

In 125+ years of Hockey Langway is not near top 10 or 20 or 30 All-Time. He was a one dimensional defensive D-Man in an offensive era of hockey.

Langway would have been and was the 4th best D-Man on the Habs team that traded him. Lapointe and Savard and Robinson were better defenceman overall.

You say Coffey is the 11th or 12th best D-Man ever, and you rate Langway in a similar spot.

Coffey was >>>>>> better player overall than Langway.

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Old
03-31-2007, 07:39 PM
  #15
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Originally Posted by Cup 2007 Sens Rule! View Post
Langway is not near top 11 all-time among D-Men. He was great and a HOFer with good merit but he is not one of the best players of All-time.

In 125+ years of Hockey Langway is not near top 10 or 20 or 30 All-Time. He was a one dimensional defensive D-Man in an offensive era of hockey.

Langway would have been and was the 4th best D-Man on the Habs team that traded him. Lapointe and Savard and Robinson were better defenceman overall.

You say Coffey is the 11th or 12th best D-Man ever, and you rate Langway in a similar spot.

Coffey was >>>>>> better player overall than Langway.
And he was so damn good defensively that him winning a Norris over the likes of Potvin, Bourque, Robinson, Coffey(Who scored 96 and 126 points the years Langway won), and he finished runner up for the Hart to gretzky in 1982. He was a great leader, and true competitor. He won those Norris trophies while being a low scorer for a reason. He will go down as one of the greatest defensive defensemen of all time.

You are severely underating one of the greats.

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Old
03-31-2007, 07:52 PM
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1 : Orr
2 : Gretz
3 : Lemieux
4 : Howe

1 and 2 are debatable, 2 & 3, and 3 &4.

then

5 : Bobby Hull
6 : Maurice Richard
7 : Doug Harvey
8 : Patrick Roy
9 : Eddie Shore
10 : Jean Beliveau

Standing just outside : Phil Esposito, Ray Bourque, Terry Sawchuck.

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Old
03-31-2007, 07:53 PM
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J0e Th0rnton View Post

Goaltenders:
#1 Roy
#2 Sawchuk
#3 Hasek
#4 Tretiak
#5 Brodeur(May jump higher soon)
#6 Plante
#7 Dryden
#8 Starts to get harder here...
Bill Durnan is your friend, and I don't think Tretiak belongs in the Top-10. Mine is completed by Clint Benedict, Turk Broda and Frank Brimsek.

Parent is on the bubble, I tend to let him out of the top-10 -- his first years were ******* awful. Tretiak comes next.


Last edited by MXD: 03-31-2007 at 07:59 PM.
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Old
03-31-2007, 08:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Cup 2007 Sens Rule! View Post

Langway would have been and was the 4th best D-Man on the Habs team that traded him. Lapointe and Savard and Robinson were better defenceman overall.

.
Well, Robinson was better than him, but both Lapointe and Savard were at crossroads, and Langway was pretty young.

I'd rate Langway ahead of Lapointe, and a little behind Savard, mainly due to Cups-Internationnal play. Those two guys were similar players.

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Old
03-31-2007, 09:22 PM
  #19
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My opinion

Orr
Howe
Lemieux
Gretzy
Hull



Shore
harvey
Richard
sawchuk
Beliveau

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Old
03-31-2007, 10:53 PM
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Orr
Howe
Gretzky
Lemieux
Beliveau
Shore
Hull
Richard
Harvey
Plante

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Old
04-01-2007, 03:23 AM
  #21
seventieslord
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J0e Th0rnton View Post
Its too hard to say who was more important all time, Goalie, Dman, Forward......

Easier to break it down into categories.

Forwards:
#1 Gretzky
#2 Lemieux
#3 Howe
#4 Kharlamov
#5 Beliveau
#6 Hull
#7 Lafleur
#8 Esposito
#9 Richard
#10 Bossy? Clarke? Messier?

Defense:
#1 Orr
#2 Shore
#3 Harvey
#4 Potvin
#5 Bourque
#6 Robinson
#7 Fetisov
#8 Park
#9 Lidstrom
#10 Kelly/Chelios

Goaltenders:
#1 Roy
#2 Sawchuk
#3 Hasek
#4 Tretiak
#5 Brodeur(May jump higher soon)
#6 Plante
#7 Dryden
#8 Starts to get harder here...
You need Hall on your goalies list. He was first team all-star 7 times. That is more than Sawchuk, Plante, Bower, and Worsley during that time. Prior to 1983, the first team all-star vote was as good as the vezina is today. The vezina was given to the goalie on the team with the lowest GAA, like the Jennings is today. Your top 3 are spot-on (i like Hasek for 2nd personally) and Kudos for not being unrealistic about Brodeur like so many are nowadays.

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Old
04-01-2007, 03:26 AM
  #22
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Originally Posted by J0e Th0rnton View Post
And he was so damn good defensively that him winning a Norris over the likes of Potvin, Bourque, Robinson, Coffey(Who scored 96 and 126 points the years Langway won), and he finished runner up for the Hart to gretzky in 1982. He was a great leader, and true competitor. He won those Norris trophies while being a low scorer for a reason. He will go down as one of the greatest defensive defensemen of all time.
...if not THE greatest. Who else is ever going to win a Norris trophy with that few points? I didn't see him in his prime, but to win the noris twice and to be hart runner-up, he had to be absolutely dominating in his own zone.

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Old
04-01-2007, 04:22 AM
  #23
Nalyd Psycho
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...if not THE greatest. Who else is ever going to win a Norris trophy with that few points? I didn't see him in his prime, but to win the noris twice and to be hart runner-up, he had to be absolutely dominating in his own zone.
Doug Harvey won with 27 points in 66 games. Eddie Shore won the Hart with 17 points in 47 games.

Langway was good, but, lets not overstate things.

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Old
04-01-2007, 04:34 AM
  #24
seventieslord
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Doug Harvey won with 27 points in 66 games. Eddie Shore won the Hart with 17 points in 47 games.

Langway was good, but, lets not overstate things.
Those were very different times from the early 1980's.

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Old
04-01-2007, 05:17 AM
  #25
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I have a tendency to not rate players from those Montreal teams as highly since they had so many great teammates to work with. Also, my "logic" about players from before the Howe era is that even though they were dominant for their time, the pool of athletic talent they had to play against simply is no where near today's. So the Eddie Shore's of the world can't rank anywhere near like Bobby Orr. Being the top dog of the 70s in Orr vs. the top guy from the 20s is the equivalent of the talent level of the top basketball player in the US currently vs. the top basketball player in some small central American country. Not only were the populations smaller from which to draw talent but the game on cultural and professional levels were no where near as well.

But that's just my opinion.

Also, I have a tendency to value defense very highly since a top nullifying defensive defenseman usually plays more minutes than most star forwards and can disrupt entire offenses by greatly affecting the opponent's top line and possibly even the second line.

And finally, I think players that can lead in the playoffs when their teams have no business being there have to be given special recognition, such as Stastny. Call it the "John Elway" factor.

But, cool lists everyone so far. It's been educational on how people perceive certain players I didn't know that much about, especially the differentiation between the various Montreal players.

- R

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