Perhaps an injury-filled Leaf squad from last year. Not the vastly improved Leaf team of this year, though. The Leafs are a superior team to the Flyers.
I'd like to see you logic on this one.
Flyers score more goals.
Flyers allow fewer goals.
Flyers have a better record.
Flyers have a better PP.
Flyers have a better PK.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Icewind Dale
See, the funny thing is, a below average defense can be covered up a lot better than a below average goaltender. Ask Jacques Lemaire. Better yet, ask Ken Hitchcock. Afterall, that's what he did with the Flyers' defense. Let's be honest here. He's is an employer of a steadfast defensive system. You don't really believe the Flyers went from having a porous defense to being one of the better defensive teams in the league by magic, do you?
The Flyers haven't had a porous defense in a long long time. It wasn't like we magically became a good defensive team under Hitchcock.
Klee and Marchament instead of Svehla & Wesley ???
Not exactly imrpoving by leaps and bounds ...
But you fail to include the ressurgence of McCabe, the VASTLY improved play of Aki Berg and just how important Karel Pilar is to our defense.
As well, we are only at the 30 game mark or so. There is time to add another solid d-man (which is needed to bump Marchment out of the lineup); kinda like Wesley was added last year.
But you fail to include the ressurgence of McCabe, the VASTLY improved play of Aki Berg and just how important Karel Pilar is to our defense.
As well, we are only at the 30 game mark or so. There is time to add another solid d-man (which is needed to bump Marchment out of the lineup); kinda like Wesley was added last year.
No doubt that both teams will probably add pieces before the playoffs begin, but I could only anaylze the teams as they are currently constructed.
Are the Leafs a better team than they were last season? Yes.
Are the Flyers a better team they were last season? Yes.
Man, I see objectivity has left the building. I think the hall monitor should be along any minute now to break this up, and your parents will all receive calls.
The Flyers have questions in goal. They will continue to have questions in goal until one of their goaltenders performs at an elite level for more than just a short stretch. The misconception is that there's a simple fix out there that just eludes the lump 10 inches above Bob Clarke's shoulders.
Well, the Flyers are living and dying this year with Robert Esche. It's risky, but I take chances every time I eat out. I think he'll really have to crash between now and the middle of March for Clarke to do something in goal.
It might be relevant if he was going to start in the playoffs ....
Riiiight. And Esche is so much better than Hackett that he has started 8 fewer games. If he was the legit #1 wouldn't Hackett have started, say, 5 games like in Toronto, not 20?
Riiiight. And Esche is so much better than Hackett that he has started 8 fewer games. If he was the legit #1 wouldn't Hackett have started, say, 5 games like in Toronto, not 20?
pssst....Esche has been injured for a few weeks now.
Man, I see objectivity has left the building. I think the hall monitor should be along any minute now to break this up, and your parents will all receive calls.
The Flyers have questions in goal. They will continue to have questions in goal until one of their goaltenders performs at an elite level for more than just a short stretch. The misconception is that there's a simple fix out there that just eludes the lump 10 inches above Bob Clarke's shoulders.
Well, the Flyers are living and dying this year with Robert Esche. It's risky, but I take chances every time I eat out. I think he'll really have to crash between now and the middle of March for Clarke to do something in goal.
Flyers score more goals.
Flyers allow fewer goals.
Flyers have a better record.
Flyers have a better PP.
Flyers have a better PK.
The logic? It's quite simple, really. The regular season means jack. The Senators had that over the Leafs a couple years back as well. We all know how that turned out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
The Flyers haven't had a porous defense in a long long time. It wasn't like we magically became a good defensive team under Hitchcock.
Really? Yes, let's look back. Let's look back a couple years before Hitchcock took over.
Desjardins, McGillis, Delmore, Richardson, McAllister, Therien. With the exception of Richardson, I can't think of one guy on that list who was solid defensively. Desjardins was a shadow of his former self and had become a liability in his own zone, McGillis was a fairly big hitter with a big shot to go with slight offensive flair. Defensively he was below average. Therien is, and always has been, a #7 defenseman on most NHL teams. McAllister and Delmore I don't think anyone will even think twice about as being liabilities. I'd say that's porous. If not for Chechmanek, the Flyers probably wouldn't have made the playoffs that season.
The following year was an improvement. Weinrich was brought in. He was relatively solid. Johnsson, despite what people will say, is below average in his own end. Nothing changed with McGillis, Desjardins, Richardson or Therien. Well below par with what the Leafs had at the time. People said what the Leafs had was porous. So if the "porous" Leaf defense was better than the Flyer defense, which it was, then do the math.
I notice you continue to ignore the fact that the Leafs have played an offensive wide-open style going on 6 years, while the Flyers have also been playing defensive hockey for a while now. That's going to account for a lot of things.
Riiiight. And Esche is so much better than Hackett that he has started 8 fewer games. If he was the legit #1 wouldn't Hackett have started, say, 5 games like in Toronto, not 20?
Esche is hurt you clown. That's why Hackett has played 7 straight games.
Really? Yes, let's look back. Let's look back a couple years before Hitchcock took over.
Desjardins, McGillis, Delmore, Richardson, McAllister, Therien. With the exception of Richardson, I can't think of one guy on that list who was solid defensively. Desjardins was a shadow of his former self and had become a liability in his own zone, McGillis was a fairly big hitter with a big shot to go with slight offensive flair. Defensively he was below average. Therien is, and always has been, a #7 defenseman on most NHL teams. McAllister and Delmore I don't think anyone will even think twice about as being liabilities. I'd say that's porous. If not for Chechmanek, the Flyers probably wouldn't have made the playoffs that season.
The following year was an improvement. Weinrich was brought in. He was relatively solid. Johnsson, despite what people will say, is below average in his own end. Nothing changed with McGillis, Desjardins, Richardson or Therien. Well below par with what the Leafs had at the time. People said what the Leafs had was porous. So if the "porous" Leaf defense was better than the Flyer defense, which it was, then do the math.
Desjardins had one bad year, the year before Hitchcock came on board. After the season the truth came out, he played the entire year with one arm. he had injured his shoulder in late October and needed surgery, which would have ended his season. he continued to play, and had no strength in his arm and wasn't nearly as effective as he usually is.
Desjardins was and still is by far the best defenseman that either the Leafs or Flyers currently has in their own end.
Johnsson gets outmuscled in his own end at times, but in his own end he'd every bit as good as your boy Kaberle, who was manhandled in the playoffs last year.
Therien is far from a 7th defenseman, he's a solid 6th defenseman, and on half the teams in the league he'd be a #5. He isn't as physical as someone his size should be, but on most nights he has more than gottten the job done.
In his 10 years in the NHL, Therien is a +137 (9th best in the NHL over that time) and he's done that while playing against the other teams top lines night in and night out. But I'm sure he couldn't even play for the Leafs, right ???
Quote:
Originally Posted by Icewind Dale
I notice you continue to ignore the fact that the Leafs have played an offensive wide-open style going on 6 years, while the Flyers have also been playing defensive hockey for a while now. That's going to account for a lot of things.
Next.
Yes, the Leafs have played a mroe wide open style than the Flyers, and they continue to do so. Why would I factor that into the equation ? The Leafs wide open style allows the Flyers to turn the Leafs over like crazy, and is certainly one of the reasons the Flyers are a better team.
Now if the Leafs had changed their style, then it would be something to consider.
Now has the Leafs wide open style contributed to more goal scoring ?
Desjardins had one bad year, the year before Hitchcock came on board. After the season the truth came out, he played the entire year with one arm. he had injured his shoulder in late October and needed surgery, which would have ended his season. he continued to play, and had no strength in his arm and wasn't nearly as effective as he usually is.
Desjardins was and still is by far the best defenseman that either the Leafs or Flyers currently has in their own end.
Johnsson gets outmuscled in his own end at times, but in his own end he'd every bit as good as your boy Kaberle, who was manhandled in the playoffs last year.
Therien is far from a 7th defenseman, he's a solid 6th defenseman, and on half the teams in the league he'd be a #5. He isn't as physical as someone his size should be, but on most nights he has more than gottten the job done.
In his 10 years in the NHL, Therien is a +137 (9th best in the NHL over that time) and he's done that while playing against the other teams top lines night in and night out. But I'm sure he couldn't even play for the Leafs, right ???
Yes, the Leafs have played a mroe wide open style than the Flyers, and they continue to do so. Why would I factor that into the equation ? The Leafs wide open style allows the Flyers to turn the Leafs over like crazy, and is certainly one of the reasons the Flyers are a better team.
Now if the Leafs had changed their style, then it would be something to consider.
Now has the Leafs wide open style contributed to more goal scoring ?
1997-98 Flyers - 242
Leafs - 194
1998-99 Leafs - 268
Flyers - 231
1999-00 Leafs - 246
Flyers - 237
2000-01 Flyers - 240
Leafs - 232
2001-02 Leafs - 249
Flyers - 234
2002-03 Leafs - 236
Flyers - 216
2003-04 Flyers - 93
Leafs - 88
Total
Flyers - 1,493
Leafs - 1,513
I was almost complete my post, however, I hit F5 and refreshed my page. I don't have the patience to write everything over, so I'll give the gist of what I was typing.
a) Desjardins has had many bad seasons. Don't blame injuries because he hasn't been injured for the entire duration of the last four years. If he's the best defensive defenseman the Flyers have, then you owe more to Hitchcock than you can ever imagine. Because "Rico"'s defensive ability is very below average.
On the Leafs he certainly wouldn't be the best defensive blueliner. In fact, he would be behind McCabe, Klee and Pilar. Easily.
b) Johnsson is a mini-Kaberle. Not as good offensively, not as good defensively.
c) Therien is garbage. A dime-a-dozen player. Would he make the Leaf team? Very doubtful. He's certainly a downgrade from Kaberle, McCabe, Klee, Pilar and Berg. Marchment would be of the closest calibre, but his physical play gives him the edge.
d) Correction: The old Leaf system DID cause turnovers. Since the team has bought into the new system, turnovers are at a minimum.
e) Ahh, the stats. I noticed it was convenient that you brought up 97-98, when the Leafs didn't make the playoffs. Of course, that doesn't matter. But I was planning on listing the GF/GA/GW/GP and series won, but well, F5 and all. Essentially, the Leafs playoff record in the last five years pretty much speaks for itself. THAT is why they're a superior team. And THAT is why, until Philadelphia gets a real goaltender, not pair of career backups, they will not get further than the Leafs this year.
Because "Rico"'s defensive ability is very below average.
On the Leafs he certainly wouldn't be the best defensive blueliner. In fact, he would be behind McCabe, Klee and Pilar. Easily.
I don't think anytihng more needs to be said. If that doesn't scream homer, I'm not sure anything does.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Icewind Dale
Essentially, the Leafs playoff record in the last five years pretty much speaks for itself. THAT is why they're a superior team. And THAT is why, until Philadelphia gets a real goaltender, not pair of career backups, they will not get further than the Leafs this year.
The Leafs have the edge in two area.
Sundin & mogilny are better offensively than any players the Flyers have.
Belfour is a better goalie, than we have.
I'll take the Flyers in any other match-up.
The Flyers depth is why were last year and still are better than the Leafs.
I don't think anytihng more needs to be said. If that doesn't scream homer, I'm not sure anything does.
Something screams homer, but it sure isn't my take on the situation. Desjardins is a shadow of his former self. Better defensively than McCabe, Klee or Pilar? Not even close. Even Kaberle is pushing it. His resurgence is due to Hitch. Nothing more, nothing less.
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
The Leafs have the edge in two area.
Sundin & mogilny are better offensively than any players the Flyers have.
Belfour is a better goalie, than we have.
I'll take the Flyers in any other match-up.
The Flyers depth is why were last year and still are better than the Leafs.
Offensively and goaltending-wise the Leafs are better. Defensively, the Flyers are better. They also have slightly better depth. Special teams are too early to tell. The Leafs were vastly superior last year, so it's unknown if that will change. Grit/toughness is roughly equal, although, the Leafs probably get the edge.
Perhaps an injury-filled Leaf squad from last year. Not the vastly improved Leaf team of this year, though. The Leafs are a superior team to the Flyers.
The Leafs are superior? Thats a bit of a stretch.... The Leafs do have many skilled players... however, they are as brittle as sour dough cookies. It will be interesting to see what state they are in come playoff time... and will Eddie have enough gas in the tank after blowing out his 39 candles in April? The Flyers are not the only "Elite" team with question marks.... I am just more comfortable with ours.
As much as I hate the Flyers, the Leafs are not a superior team (hell, the they are neck-n-neck in the standing, how is one superior to the other?, never mind their last game), and only a Leaf fan with no idea about hockey would claim they are (so I'm not really susprised Dale said it). They are two teams that could play each other 100 times, and would split it 50-50. Neither is superior to the other at this point.
what about the other 13 games? A bona fide back up should have played only 1/2 of that number of games by now.
Unless he isn't a bona fide back up.
Esche may emerge the clear #1, maybe not.
They have bee splitting the games evenly until Esche got injured (he'll be back today).
Hitchcock has comeout and said that the goalies will essentiallyreceive equal time until March. Esche will not play 60 or so games that a normal #1 would, but he will be the starter come playoff time.
They have bee splitting the games evenly until Esche got injured (he'll be back today).
Hitchcock has comeout and said that the goalies will essentiallyreceive equal time until March. Esche will not play 60 or so games that a normal #1 would, but he will be the starter come playoff time.
