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My thoughts on the trade that was (and the trade that wasn't)

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Old
12-16-2003, 08:40 PM
  #1
Mizral
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My thoughts on the trade that was (and the trade that wasn't)

First off, I should mention that the Flyers trade was ridiculously off my marker. In fact, I was utterly shocked when I heard it. I went between 'Bobby Clarke is a moron for thinking he needs another centreman', to ,'Comrie is gonna suck in the East', to, 'Ah, let's just see how he does first'. Nobody knew this trade was coming until it was done.

To Edmonton: Jeff Woywitka, Flyers 1st round pick, Flyers 3rd round pick

To Philidelphia: Rights to Mike Comrie

There's the deal.

First off, on the particulars: Clarke will sign Comrie, don't worry about that. Comrie will play for Philly, and he'll get around $1.6 - $2 million bucks per year, or $1.2 with hefty playoff-laden bonuses.

The picks look better than they actually are. Judging by the Flyers' performances thus far in the season and guessing where they'll end up, it's almost assured they will be bottom 10 picks, and more than likely bottom 5 picks, possibly the last pick in the 1st or 3rd rounds. Still, decent picks.

Jeff Woywitka, I should preface this by saying I am a huge fan of his. Most scouts feel he is a top 4 defenseman potential guy, I actually would go so far as to say top 3. Woywitka looks, to me, a lot like a younger Eric Weinrich, which is to say, a very useful player.

Now, on to my thoughts about who gained what on the trade, and ultimatly, who won the trade:

The Oilers obviously gained 'future' assets. Woywitka might play next year, but he and the picks won't be in their primes for another 5 years or so, if they hack it in the NHL.

The Flyers gained assets for the here and now, but also the future. Clarke makes a good point when he says that Roenick can't play forever, and I assume he wants Comrie to be their #1/2 centreman some day to replace Roenick when he retires.

Obviously, looking at the situation, the Oilers weren't going to get fair value for a signed Mike Comrie. Purely value wise, I'd say the teams broke even, with perhaps a slight edge to Philidelphia. This is including contract details for the players, likelyhood of the three assets turning into NHL players for the Oilers, Mike Comrie's future in Philidelphia, etc..

Anyhow, Lowe didn't do bad on the value front.

However, where Lowe has failed, miserably I might add, is that he is not improving his listless hockey team for the here and now. Some may consider this short sightedness, but missing the playoffs doesn't do anything but hurt the franchise and hurt the future. Too much emphasis is put on the future in Edmonton, and trades like this do nothing to change that. Young players do not always mean there will be a cup contender down the road, especially when they do not get playoff experience early in their careers.

I'll give Lowe 2 stars out of 5 on this one. Value wise he did okay, but he hurt his hockey team in the here and now (considering what he could have gotten), and none of the assets he got are certainties to play in the NHL (sans Woywitka, whom I really believe in, but it's still early).

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

In regards to the trade that wasn't,

To Edmonton: 1st round pick, Correy Perry, $2.5 million

To Anaheim: Mike Comrie

I really don't think the value on this one is way different. The 1st and Woywitka are I guess comparable (I'd rather have Woywitka, but it's pretty close, considering the Ducks could have a top 10 pick), Perry is somewhat close to a Flyers 1st, Flyers 1st having the edge here. $2.5 is much better than a 3rd round pick.

Pure value wise, I'd say this is equal to the Flyers deal, but the fact that the $2.5 million was never going to go to the Oilers in the first place makes it all unimportant anyways.

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12-16-2003, 08:48 PM
  #2
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There is a big difference between the Philly and Ducks deal. Your not trading Comrie to a team that you are in competition against.

So I guess that Comrie value was a little higher then Marc Savard.

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12-16-2003, 08:56 PM
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Jerky Leclerc
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The important number isn't the 2.5 mil Lowe used to kill the deal. The number that is really important is the 1.6 mil Comrie agreed to accept from Anaheim. Lowe used this number to generate interests from teams not named Anaheim. Essentially, Murray got used/screwed by another verbal agreement. Remember Kariya gave Murray a verbal agreement in the summer which he broke. Its time for Murray to realize there are unethical people in this world and one of those people is named Kevin Lowe.

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12-16-2003, 08:59 PM
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As you mention, the $2.5 million was never offered to the Oilers, so including it as part of the potential Anaheim return is misleading.


My only other quibble is this:
Quote:
but he hurt his hockey team in the here and now (considering what he could have gotten)
As far as I can tell, we just don't *know* what he could have gotten. The only actual NHL player I've heard mentioned as a potential return in a Comrie deal is... Andy McDonald. Maybe you can argue that not getting Andy McDonald hurts the team... but it doesn't hurt it that much. I don't really see Andy McDonald being the kind of factor that decides whether a team makes or misses the post season.


As for making moves to improve the term in the shorter term... the trade deadline is 3 months away. Mike Comrie was proving difficult to move. With Comrie done and gone, the Oilers have other assets that might be interesting to a team that's looking to dump some salary. Other moves are possible, and if the team continues to struggle, not just possible but likely.

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12-16-2003, 09:07 PM
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The Rage
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerky Leclerc
The important number isn't the 2.5 mil Lowe used to kill the deal. The number that is really important is the 1.6 mil Comrie agreed to accept from Anaheim. Lowe used this number to generate interests from teams not named Anaheim. Essentially, Murray got used/screwed by another verbal agreement. Remember Kariya gave Murray a verbal agreement in the summer which he broke. Its time for Murray to realize there are unethical people in this world and one of those people is named Kevin Lowe.
I guess we can scream "CONDITIONAL AGREEMENT" all we want, but you people will still refuse to listen. I guess it's a better story to say that Murray was wronged in a terrible way, than it is to look at the hard facts and say the deal never happened, was never completely agreed to, and only came to the fore because Winter, Comrie, and Murray orchestrated it and really wanted it to happen. As far as Mizral goes, do you really think if the Ducks added Comrie that they would have a top ten pick? And do you really have such a gigantic ego that you need to start a whole new thread for "your thoughts," rather than post a reply in one of the many other Comrie threads? Sorry, I just had to add the last one .

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12-16-2003, 09:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oilers_guy_eddie

As for making moves to improve the term in the shorter term... the trade deadline is 3 months away. Mike Comrie was proving difficult to move. With Comrie done and gone, the Oilers have other assets that might be interesting to a team that's looking to dump some salary. Other moves are possible, and if the team continues to struggle, not just possible but likely.
Also, we spent Comrie's money on Oates, so indirectly we got him due to the Comrie situation (as has been mentioned by others). That move will pay major dividends in the second half.

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12-16-2003, 09:10 PM
  #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerky Leclerc
The important number isn't the 2.5 mil Lowe used to kill the deal. The number that is really important is the 1.6 mil Comrie agreed to accept from Anaheim. Lowe used this number to generate interests from teams not named Anaheim. Essentially, Murray got used/screwed by another verbal agreement. Remember Kariya gave Murray a verbal agreement in the summer which he broke. Its time for Murray to realize there are unethical people in this world and one of those people is named Kevin Lowe.
It's time for Sucks ... err Ducks to fly south. Quit crying about the trade that wasn't. It is not official until it reaches the league office. I'm sorry that Ducks fans will not accept the fact we will not subsidize your playoff run. Woywitka is a better prospect for this team - close to NHL ready and potential top four, well-rounded d-man.

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12-16-2003, 09:23 PM
  #8
Jerky Leclerc
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I can say Anaheim fans can care less whether Comrie is traded to Anaheim or not. The fact of the matter is that Lowe acted unethically and used Anaheim to get what he needed from Comrie. Lowe had no intentions of trading Comrie to Anaheim, knowing that that is the place Comrie wanted to go. This is troubling considering Murray acted in good faith to only be dealt a blow below the belt. I'm sorry if Oiler fans can care less about the Anaheim POV. But the ramifications of these negotiations is extensive and Lowe is all to be blamed. Young players like Andy McDonald, Joffrey Lupul, and specifically Corey Perry were all used to get what Lowe really wanted and that was to get back at Comrie. When these kids hear their names in trade rumors every day, it ultimately affects their play and that is unfortunate considering Lowe never acted in good faith to make a honest trade. That is why Lowe's tactic is unethical and that is why Anaheim fans are upset.

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12-16-2003, 09:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerky Leclerc
I can say Anaheim fans can care less whether Comrie is traded to Anaheim or not. The fact of the matter is that Lowe acted unethically and used Anaheim to get what he needed from Comrie. Lowe had no intentions of trading Comrie to Anaheim, knowing that that is the place Comrie wanted to go. This is troubling considering Murray acted in good faith to only be dealt a blow below the belt. I'm sorry if Oiler fans can care less about the Anaheim POV. But the ramifications of these negotiations is extensive and Lowe is all to be blamed. Young players like Andy McDonald, Joffrey Lupul, and specifically Corey Perry were all used to get what Lowe really wanted and that was to get back at Comrie. When these kids hear their names in trade rumors every day, it ultimately affects their play and that is unfortunate considering Lowe never acted in good faith to make a honest trade. That is why Lowe's tactic is unethical and that is why Anaheim fans are upset.
Plain and simple, the deal was notr value, did not address our needs, and Lowe decided not to take it, rightfully so. The deal was negotiated by Winter and Murray, not Lowe. The deal was never completely agreed to. Lowe tried to make it work using an innovative solution, but that failed. Exactly how is this Lowe's fault? Keep in mind that the reporter who broke the story has been, and still is, aggresively pro-Comrie, and most likely got the information from Winter (and most definately not Lowe). If you want to blame someone for what your players have gone through, blame Brownlee (or even Winter). You won't get any disagreement on these boards. In any case, trade rumours are always bandied about, so I'm not sure how McDonald and Lupul were affected in any out of the ordinary way. Perry, perhaps, but judging by his comments he seems more flattered than slighted.

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12-16-2003, 09:38 PM
  #10
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Had young roster players like Andy McDonald or Joffrey Lupul been offered up rather than a longterm boom or bust prospect like Corey Perry this debate would like not have occurred. To offer up bargain basement offers and expect highend return nets this result. For Lowe to consumate the Ducks trade greater value was required. Murray could have re-upped and chose not to. End of story.

As for your comments about young players and trade rumours, this is professional hockey in which these athletes are paid millions of dollars. The obligation of professional athletes is to act, well, professional. Trade rumours are a reality of a multimillion dollar industry in which 20 and 21 year olds make more in one year than most of us in 10 years. Sorry, I have no sympathy in this regard.

Comrie and Murray tried to barter a cheap ticket to Anaheim. It seemed a match made in heaven but Lowe used his savvy to seek a equitable and palatable trade for the Oil. While Duck fans sulk and cry unethical, Oiler fans rejoice for not giving away our asset to a conference rival.
And, finally, we have seen one hockey organization stick to the principles of the CBA. Mike Comrie at 23 can't simply sulk his way to where he wants to play.

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12-16-2003, 09:40 PM
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerky Leclerc
I can say Anaheim fans can care less whether Comrie is traded to Anaheim or not. The fact of the matter is that Lowe acted unethically and used Anaheim to get what he needed from Comrie. Lowe had no intentions of trading Comrie to Anaheim, knowing that that is the place Comrie wanted to go. This is troubling considering Murray acted in good faith to only be dealt a blow below the belt. I'm sorry if Oiler fans can care less about the Anaheim POV. But the ramifications of these negotiations is extensive and Lowe is all to be blamed. Young players like Andy McDonald, Joffrey Lupul, and specifically Corey Perry were all used to get what Lowe really wanted and that was to get back at Comrie. When these kids hear their names in trade rumors every day, it ultimately affects their play and that is unfortunate considering Lowe never acted in good faith to make a honest trade. That is why Lowe's tactic is unethical and that is why Anaheim fans are upset.
Okay, even if we say what your arguing is true and that Lowe screwed Murray and the Anaheim organization.

Okay, so what. He did nothing illegal. Unethical, probably. Illegal no.
So what happens? Nothing. It's time to move on. HAHA.

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12-16-2003, 09:47 PM
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
I'll give Lowe 2 stars out of 5 on this one. Value wise he did okay, but he hurt his hockey team in the here and now (considering what he could have gotten), and none of the assets he got are certainties to play in the NHL (sans Woywitka, whom I really believe in, but it's still early).
As others have already mentioned, Oates is our immediate replacement for Comrie this season. With the money already spent on Oates, I'm not sure if there is much money left to spend on another impact player.

As others have also mentioned, not sending a roster player to ANA certainly helps our chances for the playoffs as it looks like ANA may be one of the teams competing for the final playoff spots with the Oilers.

So if you look at the above factors, I don't think Lowe have neglected the "here and now" of his hockey team.

As for Perry vs Woy: I'm not sure what their upside are but I think Woy has a much lower downside. Perry is also said to have questionable conditoning and skating abilities. Plus, we need (desperately, I may add) a defense prospect way more than we need another forward prospect. Finally, Woy will be reunited with his buddy Lynch (they played in Red Deer together) so this could help both players' development.

Another (rather far fetched, I have to say) scenario that may happen is that the 2005 draft will be cancelled and 2005 eligible draftees will be combined with the 2006 ones and thus making the 2006 draft an especially deep one. So the Oilers' pick from philly (which I assume with be transferred to the 2006 draft) may turn out to be pretty nice.

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12-16-2003, 09:47 PM
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Its all about Karma. We'll see what happens in the future. Keep in mind, Bryan Murray is a well respected general manager in the NHL.

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12-16-2003, 09:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerky Leclerc
Its all about Karma. We'll see what happens in the future. Keep in mind, Bryan Murray is a well respected general manager in the NHL.
Keep in mind, Kevin Lowe is a well respected general manager in the NHL.
I do understand where your coming from though. If the Oilers had been on the other end of the deal, I'd be pissed too.

Karma is Karma but that's Lowe problem. He knows what truly happened in the negotiations.

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12-16-2003, 10:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerky Leclerc
Its all about Karma. We'll see what happens in the future. Keep in mind, Bryan Murray is a well respected general manager in the NHL.
Well respected? Then why did he try to pull a fast one? A trade is never completed until there is a conference call between the two trading partners. That never happened. Ducks fans should stop whining. This is a lesson that 23-year-old hockey players shouldn't dictate where they can and won't go. End of story.

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12-16-2003, 10:08 PM
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Wow, some of you Oiler fans talk like you won a battle today. The only person who came away happy is Comrie because he gets to play. Edmonton gets no support to help them right now. Is Woywitka going to help the Oilers make the playoffs playing in the AHL? I don't see how anyone would consider this a major victory.

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12-16-2003, 10:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerky Leclerc
Wow, some of you Oiler fans talk like you won a battle today. The only person who came away happy is Comrie because he gets to play. Edmonton gets no support to help them right now. Is Woywitka going to help the Oilers make the playoffs playing in the AHL? I don't see how anyone would consider this a major victory.
If Comrie's so happy, why have he and his agent said NOTHING since the trade had been announced? Doesn't that strike you as a bit odd, considering how badly he wanted out of Edmonton and away from Lowe, and, by the profession of his agent, wanted to go to a 'bigger pond', so to speak?

It couldn't have anything to do with going from the frying pan in Lowe's kitchen into the 90,000 BTU BBQ that is Bob Clarke and Ken Hitchcock? In the eastern conference no less?

I could be wrong, but I'm getting the impression that Philadelphia was not on Team Comrie's short list of preferred destinations. I'll be curious to see what they do next.

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12-16-2003, 11:04 PM
  #18
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So Edmonton win because Comrie is unhappy? Wow, I see your organization has its priorities straight.

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12-16-2003, 11:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerky Leclerc
So Edmonton win because Comrie is unhappy? Wow, I see your organization has its priorities straight.
Sigh, pretty much every Anaheim fan's response to the deal that I've read so far has gone in the following pattern:
1.) Anaheim's offer was at least equal or better to Philly's
2.) Lowe screwed us, the deal was set and he acted unethically
3.) We don't really need Comrie, there are a lot of other players out there
4.) Edmonton lost the deal anyway.. none of the players they received
back will help you at all in the near future
In the extreme case, Anaheim fans have resorted to:
5.) "Haha your team is poor"
I can understand being a bit bitter about the incident but some of the posts Anaheim fans have made in regards to the Comrie deal have been simply asinine (not specifically yours Jerky)..

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12-17-2003, 05:26 AM
  #20
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Originally Posted by Jerky Leclerc
So Edmonton win because Comrie is unhappy? Wow, I see your organization has its priorities straight.
I doubt if Comrie is unhappy. First he's out of Edmonton and a step closer to being back playing. Both Clarke and Hitchcock have expressed their enthusiasm as has Roenick who had this to say "He is going to immediately make this team better. He is gritty and very talented. He will help with every aspect of our team".
Read about it here.

Second, he's going to a legitimate Stanley Cup contender. Certainly the Oilers won't be mistaken for one of those anytime soon. I'm sure Comrie regrets not going to the Ducks but he could still end up there. After all, he's not signed yet.

Did Edmonton win. You be the judge. $2.535M for a 3rd round pick in 2005.

 
Old
12-17-2003, 05:39 AM
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerky Leclerc
I can say Anaheim fans can care less whether Comrie is traded to Anaheim or not. The fact of the matter is that Lowe acted unethically and used Anaheim to get what he needed from Comrie. Lowe had no intentions of trading Comrie to Anaheim, knowing that that is the place Comrie wanted to go. This is troubling considering Murray acted in good faith to only be dealt a blow below the belt. I'm sorry if Oiler fans can care less about the Anaheim POV. But the ramifications of these negotiations is extensive and Lowe is all to be blamed. Young players like Andy McDonald, Joffrey Lupul, and specifically Corey Perry were all used to get what Lowe really wanted and that was to get back at Comrie. When these kids hear their names in trade rumors every day, it ultimately affects their play and that is unfortunate considering Lowe never acted in good faith to make a honest trade. That is why Lowe's tactic is unethical and that is why Anaheim fans are upset.
Jerky, because I have got to read you much over the last few weeks, I really enjoy your posts.

One thing, Lowe didn't act unethical. It was his intention to never leak any information to the public. Rich Winter had more to do with this blowing up for the Ducks than Kevin Lowe. He was using the media (Yet again.) to try to coerce public opinion toward the Comrie camp. With that happening and the negotiations and information getting in the public eye, it ended up working to Lowe's advantage in other deals presenting themselves.

It was my firm belief that if Winter shuts his mouth and a conference call between Winter, Murray and Lowe starts hammering the details, MC would likely be a Duck.

With Rich Winter being the agent that he is, caused this difficulty more than anything else. I don't say that Kevin Lowe is innocent in the entire situation, but I think that you need to focus your venom towards the more likely source.

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12-17-2003, 05:51 AM
  #22
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A few days ago I posted that I didn't mind the Perry 1st round pick trade and everyone jumped on me now you guys like this deal.This deal is no better Woywitka vs. Perry is debatle (I've seen Perry play about 4 times in the OHL he is awfully good)No debate the Anaheim first round pick is about 10 picks higher than Philly's so the 3rd I guess is worth the ten spots......... same deal.

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12-17-2003, 06:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tanko
A few days ago I posted that I didn't mind the Perry 1st round pick trade and everyone jumped on me now you guys like this deal.This deal is no better Woywitka vs. Perry is debatle (I've seen Perry play about 4 times in the OHL he is awfully good)No debate the Anaheim first round pick is about 10 picks higher than Philly's so the 3rd I guess is worth the ten spots......... same deal.
Comrie, at worst can hurt the Oilers in one game... January 10th.

at the same time, he can help the Oilers in 4 games (assuming he is playing by the new year).

Then next season the benefits are a lot higher.

Not only that, but if Anaheim wins their division (which they would have an excellent shot at if they acquired Comrie), they pick in the 25-30 range as well.

Think about it.

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12-17-2003, 06:04 AM
  #24
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Originally Posted by ZIM
I doubt if Comrie is unhappy. First he's out of Edmonton and a step closer to being back playing. Both Clarke and Hitchcock have expressed their enthusiasm as has Roenick who had this to say "He is going to immediately make this team better. He is gritty and very talented. He will help with every aspect of our team".
Read about it here.

Second, he's going to a legitimate Stanley Cup contender. Certainly the Oilers won't be mistaken for one of those anytime soon. I'm sure Comrie regrets not going to the Ducks but he could still end up there. After all, he's not signed yet.

Did Edmonton win. You be the judge. $2.535M for a 3rd round pick in 2005.
If the Oilers miss the playoffs due to the Ducks getting Comrie, they lose about $2Mill at least. I'll take a 3rd round pick over the rest of the 500 grand. Not to mention we upgraded the team where it needed it most.

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12-17-2003, 06:21 AM
  #25
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I didn't mind the Perry and a 1st either. That notwithstanding, I have been high on Woywitka for some time now...and he is now the number one blueline prospect in the organization.

Forward prospects.
Pouliot
Niinimaki
McDonald
Rita
Salmelainen
Mikhnov
Winchester
Brodziak

Defense Prospects.
Lynch
Greene
Allen
Svensk

So which is more valuable a 20 year old, almost ready to crack the line up Woywitka or 18 year old playing junior for a couple more seasons Perry?

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