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Old
04-11-2007, 01:19 AM
  #51
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Originally Posted by Esticallice View Post
monsters in the closet like waivers Todd Simpson last year, Leighton this year. He also didn't claim Pominville from waivers when available. All i'm saying is Gainey has something to prove this summer IMO.
Simpson and Leighton were purely for depth insurance and no one picked up Pominville so that's a completely irrelevant point. Now I'm by no means defending Gainey's overall performance (I'll wait till 2009 before I evaluate him ), just presenting my opinion that those aren't valid criticisms.

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04-11-2007, 01:27 AM
  #52
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PAVOL DEMITRA
thats all i have to say !

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Old
04-11-2007, 01:27 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by brownman View Post
Simpson and Leighton were purely for depth insurance and no one picked up Pominville so that's a completely irrelevant point. Now I'm by no means defending Gainey's overall performance (I'll wait till 2009 before I evaluate him ), just presenting my opinion that those aren't valid criticisms.
Leighton, the backup of the backup in Philadelphia, depth ? Simpson, a poor man's Niinima, depth ? And Pominville wouldn't have added depth ? Oh right, we had no room because we had to keep Downey and Murray...And just because 28 other retarded GM's didn't pick Pominville for absolutely free doesn't mean it's not a good point. Andre Savard was Gainey's assistant at this point and almost had an heart attack when Gainey didn't take Pominville through waivers. Savard was an A+ GM IMO and would have taken him.

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04-11-2007, 01:35 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Esticallice View Post
Leighton, the backup of the backup in Philadelphia, depth ? Simpson, a poor man's Niinima, depth ? And Pominville wouldn't have added depth ? Oh right, we had no room because we had to keep Downey and Murray...And just because 28 other retarded GM's didn't pick Pominville for absolutely free doesn't mean it's not a good point. Andre Savard was Gainey's assistant at this point and almost had an heart attack when Gainey didn't take Pominville through waivers. Savard was an A+ GM IMO and would have taken him.
Wasn't Pominville on waivers in January of '06? If I remember correctly Downey wasn't acquired till February or March. I could be wrong about that but nonetheless, skipping on Pominville is purely a hindsight is 20/20 situation seeing as he's only slightly bigger than a guy like Corey Locke who put up even better numbers in junior.

And again, Leighton and Simpson were only brought on board for worst case scenarios though I remember Todd playing against the Leafs in March last year and setting up one of Bonk's goals so at least he had some impact. It's not like Gainey traded prospects for Leighton or Simpson so I fail to see how they were bad decisions in the traditional sense.

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04-11-2007, 01:44 AM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brownman View Post
Wasn't Pominville on waivers in January of '06? If I remember correctly Downey wasn't acquired till February or March. I could be wrong about that but nonetheless, skipping on Pominville is purely a hindsight is 20/20 situation seeing as he's only slightly bigger than a guy like Corey Locke who put up even better numbers in junior.

And again, Leighton and Simpson were only brought on board for worst case scenarios though I remember Todd playing against the Leafs in March last year and setting up one of Bonk's goals so at least he had some impact. It's not like Gainey traded prospects for Leighton or Simpson so I fail to see how they were bad decisions in the traditional sense.
What you say is true, I just wanted to point out that Gainey never brought anyone who could have a real impact since he was here, either through trade, waivers, or UFA's. When he could do it, for example with Souray at the deadline, he didn't do it. While not trading Souray was a decision we could debate for years, my opinion is when you have a player whose power play stats hides the fact that he is 261th/261 NHL defensemen for plus minus at -28, you trade him. All I'm saying is what everybody thinks and hopes, that the habs management have to do something worth while for once this summer and bring real big names in Montreal. What they said today is reassuring but then again, talk is cheap, UFA's are not.

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04-11-2007, 01:47 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Esticallice View Post
I just wanted to point out that Gainey never brought anyone who could have a real impact since he was here, either through trade, waivers, or UFA's. All I'm saying is what everybody thinks and hopes, that the habs management have to do something worth while for once this summer and bring real big names in Montreal. What they said today is reassuring but then again, talk is cheap, UFA's are not.
Agreed, the last thing this team can do is rely on it's 22-24 year-olds again next season. It's time to acquire reinforcements and the best way to do that first and foremost is to market the city of Montreal as the best city in North America

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04-11-2007, 01:52 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by brownman View Post
Agreed, the last thing this team can do is rely on it's 22-24 year-olds again next season. It's time to acquire reinforcements and the best way to do that first and foremost is to market the city of Montreal as the best city in North America
Thanks to Rivet's weather comments, Samsonov UFA's lonely planet guide, Kovalev's media crisis who exposed Montreal's hockey media as a bunch of retarded apes, the taxing situation in Quebec and Carbo's great reputation for coaching, signing top UFAs will be a walk in the park.

I suggest we start by signing a really good hypnotist

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04-11-2007, 01:57 AM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Esticallice View Post
What you say is true, I just wanted to point out that Gainey never brought anyone who could have a real impact

Kovalev couldn't have a "real impact" when he was acquired? Pretty sure Samsonov was supposed to have an impact. They didn't. But saying they couldn't is just hindsight..

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04-11-2007, 02:11 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Vicious View Post
Kovalev couldn't have a "real impact" when he was acquired? Pretty sure Samsonov was supposed to have an impact. They didn't. But saying they couldn't is just hindsight..
I agree for Kovalev, and i think he can still have an impact in the future. One of the few good moves of Gainey. As for Samsonov, were we so desperate as to give 3,5 millions to an 20 goal per season average winger? In the new NHL is 20 goals a season really worth that much??

Anywayz. The future months should speak louder and clearer than whatever we can say about the past.

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Old
04-11-2007, 02:46 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Stradale View Post
I dont hate Ryder, and i believe he can score 30 goals for many seasons to come IF he has a good center.

You said it, the kid can score but the kid needs the puck at the right place to score, and Koivu is mainly the guy that gives him the puck.

Koivu was Ryder's center since Ryder played with the Habs, thats the reason of Ryder's success.
Sorry , but Koivu didn't make Ryder .

Ryder scored 25 goals at his first season , playing most of the time with Ribeiro and Dagenais . He made 30 goals the next season , playing half the season with Ribeiro , and half with Koivu .

Also , you forget someone ; Souray .

Souray had an exceptional season , and his number of PP goals boost the points sheet of the PP unit players .

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04-11-2007, 02:47 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by CrAzYNiNe View Post
Ryder might not be the greatest player on the earth, but the kid can shoot, and the kid scored 30 for us. To hate on our first 30 goal score in close if not a decade, well Koivu didn't make anyone else a 30 goal scorer.
Zednik?

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04-11-2007, 02:50 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by milou View Post
Sorry , but Koivu didn't make Ryder .

Ryder scored 25 goals at his first season , playing most of the time with Ribeiro and Dagenais . He made 30 goals the next season , playing half the season with Ribeiro , and half with Koivu .

Also , you forget someone ; Souray .

Souray had an exceptional season , and his number of PP goals boost the points sheet of the PP unit players .
While Koivu might not have made Ryder the scorer he is, I think the point is that Koivu makes anyone that play with him better. If someone doesn't produce when paired with Koivu he just doesn't belong on the top two lines IMO.

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04-11-2007, 03:00 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Stradale View Post
yup, look at Datsyuk contract, he will make almost 7 millions a year and has 87pts this season. I really like Datsyuk, he's one of the most talented in the league but when you look at the stats, he only have 12 points more than Koivu thats not a big difference. Thats over 2 millions for 12 points, and lets not forget Datsyuk play in Detroit, 1st in the west and second overall, when our captain plays for the poor Habs that cant barely scores on 5 on 5.
is Datsyuk minus 22 ( +- ) ,for how long is his contract . Is he only a PP pointer , was he invisible for at least a month ? how much goals he did ?, average number of goals for him ? How old is he ? Is his team in the Playoffs ? ....

You put two stats beside and based your opinion on that . But that means nothing .

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04-11-2007, 03:17 AM
  #64
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Okay, Saku is the heart and soul of this team. He is the captain. He is the number one center. I love the guy, but I agree with those that say 1) it would be better for the Habs if he was centre 1B (duh.) and that 2) he needs (and this is not a "solution" wishlist) a Dany Heatley-type player (i.e. someone who is pretty much a LOCK to get over 30 goals a year, and it's just a matter of how many more) to get the most out of what he has to offer. I think the captain can be the second line centre no problem, and I don't think it would be a slight on him as long as it didn't mean relegating him to a line of Samsonov and Kovalev-type players.

Basically, and no knock to Saku, as long as Saku is good enough to be our number one centre without having someone ATLEAST as good on the second line, we are in for a few more years of uncertainty (if not disappointment) come stretch time. And forget about the Cup. Without a dominant first line (like Ottawa for example), an equally effective second line is crucial.

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04-11-2007, 03:20 AM
  #65
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i dont get it... y does every one wana trade saku out of no where ??? damn some ppl must hate this guy and yet when he scores big goals and win a game for us every one starts loving him... some of u needs to chooooose either u like him or dont...

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Old
04-11-2007, 03:20 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Esticallice View Post
While Koivu might not have made Ryder the scorer he is, I think the point is that Koivu makes anyone that play with him better. If someone doesn't produce when paired with Koivu he just doesn't belong on the top two lines IMO.
i think that it's true but not that much .

Both Ryder and Kovalev had very similar PPG last season with Ribeiro ( And yes , Koivu is a better player than Ribeiro ... i know ) .

Most of the time , Saku will had a big production when he played with a new player . Perezhogin , Hossa , Kovalev are all good exemples . But it's just for a short time and it turn in a PP production . Saku is ordinary when it's the 5 on 5 situations .

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04-11-2007, 03:27 AM
  #67
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Originally Posted by ari1160 View Post
i dont get it... y does every one wana trade saku out of no where ??? damn some ppl must hate this guy and yet when he scores big goals and win a game for us every one starts loving him... some of u needs to chooooose either u like him or dont...
There is no link betwen talking about his trade value , and hating him . Who said that they were hating him ?

We are a lot that think that he 's not the angular rock of a contender team . Than if you put him in another role - 2 nd or 3th center - he than become very expensive for his utility .

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04-11-2007, 03:28 AM
  #68
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The Official Koivu Captain Debate Closure

Bob Gainey has Spoken

"Koivu est un champion sans championnat. Mais il mange, il s'entraîne en champion. Un jour, il va gagner un championnat. Il a aussi exercé un grand leadership auprès des jeunes"

Translation

"Koivu is a Champion without a Championship ring. But he eats and Trains like a Champion. One day he is going to WIN that Championship. He also exercised great leadership towards our young players"


Alright boys and girls... no more Fighting... Gainey one of the Montreals "greatest leaders yaddi yadda" has just Spoken of our little "2nd line center not worth a 1st round pick Finn" as a Champion. Let us all remember, that the man played in montreal and won a cup here... he knows more about this kind of things then

Bergeron, Pednault, Villeneuve, Fournier, Jack Todd, Pj Stock name any of our Journalists + Analysts + Fans.. So please please....let us leave this alone.

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Old
04-11-2007, 05:09 AM
  #69
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Sundin is also a champion sans championnat as well as Alfredsson and many others What a joke....

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Old
04-11-2007, 06:55 AM
  #70
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Koivu should be traded as soon as possible!
He's been picked among 25 players,coach,management as the primary scapegoat for many years now. It's absurd and irrational.

Quote:
Originally Posted by milou View Post
We are a lot that think that he 's not the angular rock of a contender team .
And what is this conclusion based on?
Making a huge number of *solely his* +/- stats and temporary slump?
Comparing Koivu to other first line centers and achievements of previous (Hab) captains? Calling him as a snob according to rumours made up by some "journalists"? Really impressive arguments, atleast better than Adolf's ones.


Last edited by montreal: 04-11-2007 at 03:02 PM.
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Old
04-11-2007, 07:03 AM
  #71
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Probably not. A consistent performer with a huge heart. Rarely ever complains. Plays the system. Kicks it up a notch when it counts. All ways responds to adversity. 32 years old, with a decent contract at 4.5 compared to some out there at 6-7 mill putting up similar numbers.

Yep, i'm quite sure he could be traded........


If we ever traded Saku, this organization will struggle for a while. Kind of like Edmonton did when they lost Ryan Smith, but not to that extent. Unless we get a bonafida centre in return, no one on this team currently can replace Saku. The only was is through UFA, but this is a difficult task, expecially with Montreals lack of appeal.

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Old
04-11-2007, 07:09 AM
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MontrealHabs View Post
Sundin is also a champion sans championnat as well as Alfredsson and many others What a joke....
I don't get the joke.

Also, Koivu rules.

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Old
04-11-2007, 07:10 AM
  #73
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or his value is that low?

Yes he has 4.75$ millions contract but he has 75pts which is pretty acceptable when you think about it. He made Ryder a 30 goals scorer, Ryder would never get this number if he didnt played with Koivu all season long. And on the other side, he has Streit, Perezhogin, Latendresse, Higgins, Begin, Jonhson etc... pulling 75 pts playing with all these third and fourth winger(except Higgins of course) is not that bad.

Imagine if he get the chance to play with the Gaborik, Hossa, Kovalchuk, Gagne Heatley, Lecavalier, St. Louis etc...etc...etc... He would get AT LEAST 10 to 15 more points and that would made him a 85pts+ player which is really good


Some player's career is going downhill like Kovalev but i dont think its the case with Koivu, he did have his best season so far with this poor team. Plus, he has more points than some top players like:

Koivu: 75pts

A. Semin: 73 pts
A. Frolov: 71 pts
B.Richards: 70pts
M. Straka: 70 pts
M. Hejduk: 70 pts
P. Bergeron: 70 pts
E. Staal: 70 pts
J. Cheechoo: 69 pts
C. Drury: 69 pts
P.Elias: 69 pts
S. Gagne: 68 pts


So i really dont think it would be that hard to trade Koivu even with his contract. I dont even mind to keep him to be the second center of the team but Gainey has to sign a real #1 center this summer. One thing i dont like its the "C" on his jersey, please take that away. I think it would take away lots of pression on Saku's shoulder and make him even better. He was terrific at the beginning of the season(Saky=God remember?) but ran out of gas later in the season, being a second center and assistant captain would be perfect for him.

real #1 center
Koivu
Plekanec
Lapierre

Thats what i call depth in center!
Koivu is a #1 centre. I'll go further than that. He's in the top ten centremen in the league.

Just so we can have an exercise that will show you that you should not be talking out of your rear end - it's dangerous - name me nine other centremen that you would take in place of Koivu.

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04-11-2007, 07:18 AM
  #74
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Koivu is a #1 centre. I'll go further than that. He's in the top ten centremen in the league.

Just so we can have an exercise that will show you that you should not be talking out of your rear end - it's dangerous - name me nine other centremen that you would take in place of Koivu.
Please don't start this. I think Koivu is great, and I think he has to stay if we are to move forward with this team. He's seems like a great guy and is always playing his arse off. Please let's not get into the "name X # of players better than X". It never ends up as a good conversation.

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Old
04-11-2007, 07:23 AM
  #75
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Originally Posted by Vlad The Impaler View Post
A lot of teams might be interested in Koivu. But with his NTC, the thing is to figure out how many teams will interest him.

Mostly, it will be teams looking to add a missing piece. So there would be attractive destinations if the Habs shopped him.
You seem to be very intrigued at the prospect of seeing Koivu traded

I don't think there's any interest to trade Koivu away at the moment personally. The NTC they gave him as well as Gainey's endorsement during the PC is proof of that.

For a player with a NTC to get traded, some unusual things need to happen first. Stuff like a change of GM, exceptionally poor play from the player, drastic ownership changes, the player's demand to be moved, etc.

Koivu did not say he wants to be traded. Now he doesn't want to be part of a rebuilding process because, let's face it, he's getting older a bit faster. I don't really think we're in full rebuild mode either. And if you look around the league, it doesn't take much to change a bottom dweller into a cup finalist/winner and vice versa.

Now if Gainey pulls his thumb out of his ass this summer, makes judicious signings/trades, this team can get better real quick. If that doesn't happen, and we get more samsonovs, kovalevs and dandenaults, then I could see Koivu asking to be traded to a contender.

But then again, teams can be contender one year, and bottom dweller the next year. If I were Koivu I'd wait until the trade deadline before making such a demand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlad The Impaler View Post
Or maybe Gainey will just deal again with Armstrong in Dallas directly, holding a half-empty bottle of Whiskey in one hand and a lube tube in the other.


Now honestly, the Ribeiro trade REALLLLLLLY wasn't that bad at all.

Sometimes, players don't really have the value you think they do, and even if Ribeiro did have more value than that and it was mismanaged, there were some positive aspects to that trade. The Ribeiro trade allowed us to give more ice time to Plekanec, gave us a wee bit of defensive depht in case of injuries and, as a result, allowed us to move Rivet for a 1st + Gorges.

So no need to pull Hakan Loob out of the closet.

If that trade was the only bad thing Gainey had done, I'd say he'd be doing fairly well. Unfortunately...

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