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Old
04-11-2007, 08:29 AM
  #76
onice
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Originally Posted by JaymzB View Post
Please don't start this. I think Koivu is great, and I think he has to stay if we are to move forward with this team. He's seems like a great guy and is always playing his arse off. Please let's not get into the "name X # of players better than X". It never ends up as a good conversation.

No of course not. Because then ridiculous statements like the original post have to be backed up by facts. It's much better to remain vague and say we need a real #1 centre. That makes for a great debate. please!!!

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04-11-2007, 08:34 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by onice View Post
No of course not. Because then ridiculous statements like the original post have to be backed up by facts. It's much better to remain vague and say we need a real #1 centre. That makes for a great debate. please!!!
No...what happens is someone comes on, says players 1-10 are better than Koivu. Another poster comes on, says NO WAY!!! HOW CAN YOU EVEN THINK X is better than SAKU!!!!! Of course, there will be a few more lists coming in. Inevitably Sundin's name will be on people's lists. Then comes the 6 pages of bicker back and forth about Sundin is better than Koivu. You'll see and and of course . It always happens, and it is never pretty, so I was hoping to avoid it.

Of course, this post is probably not helping make the conversation any better, so I'll give myself a big

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Old
04-11-2007, 08:36 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by CrAzYNiNe View Post
best year for Koivu, best year for Ryder. To ignore this fact, you'll only be kidding yourself.

Ryder might not be the greatest player on the earth, but the kid can shoot, and the kid scored 30 for us. To hate on our first 30 goal score in close if not a decade, well Koivu didn't make anyone else a 30 goal scorer.
I respect Ryder's abilities and I've never been one to include him in a trade proposal. As a matter of fact, I'm convinced Montreal is a better team with him that without. That being said, Ryder is unable to carry the puck or make a pass. Ryder's got great finish but no playmaking abilities whatsoever which makes your statement pretty ludicrous.

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04-11-2007, 08:39 AM
  #79
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So?

He's a champion. Huzzah.

That doesn't change that the Habs are asking too much of him as a number one guy with zero support. Being a captain doesn't mean being the best player on the team, as far as I know Carbo and Gainey were never the best players on the Habs.

And there lies the problem. It isn't with Koivu, it's with what the organization has been thinking of him for the past 10 years, that he is alone going to lead the team.

So yeah, he might be a champion, but we need a better #1 guy, whether he stays or goes.

Oh, and please don't give me the heart ********. Guess what, Steve Begin and Francis Bouillon also have a lot of heart, that doesn't make them great players.

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Old
04-11-2007, 08:47 AM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WEEB View Post
So?

He's a champion. Huzzah.

That doesn't change that the Habs are asking too much of him as a number one guy with zero support. Being a captain doesn't mean being the best player on the team, as far as I know Carbo and Gainey were never the best players on the Habs.

And there lies the problem. It isn't with Koivu, it's with what the organization has been thinking of him for the past 10 years, that he is alone going to lead the team.

So yeah, he might be a champion, but we need a better #1 guy, whether he stays or goes.

Oh, and please don't give me the heart ********. Guess what, Steve Begin and Francis Bouillon also have a lot of heart, that doesn't make them great players.
Ya Begin has so much heart that he takes a stupid penalty for 4 minutes that basically costs us the game.

I am fine with Koivu as this teams leader and if they manage to get someone to be a number one center great as long as Koivy remains.

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04-11-2007, 08:47 AM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JaymzB View Post
No...what happens is someone comes on, says players 1-10 are better than Koivu. Another poster comes on, says NO WAY!!! HOW CAN YOU EVEN THINK X is better than SAKU!!!!! Of course, there will be a few more lists coming in. Inevitably Sundin's name will be on people's lists. Then comes the 6 pages of bicker back and forth about Sundin is better than Koivu. You'll see and and of course . It always happens, and it is never pretty, so I was hoping to avoid it.

Of course, this post is probably not helping make the conversation any better, so I'll give myself a big
The point of my post, JatmzB, was not to start a debate about Sundin or any other centreman. My post was trying to point that there are very few centres that are better than Koivu. And those #$%^$& centres will cost a whole lot more than Koivu and some of them do not have the leadership qualities that he brings to the table.

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04-11-2007, 08:51 AM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beowulf View Post
Ya Begin has so much heart that he takes a stupid penalty for 4 minutes that basically costs us the game.
You do realize that seconds later Koivu got a useless hooking penalty, right?

Just saying...

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04-11-2007, 08:52 AM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WEEB View Post
You do realize that seconds later Koivu got a useless hooking penalty, right?

Just saying...
At least his was in the course of action and as even the CBC commentator said at the time it was an accidental hook. Begin swung his stick after the end of the period for no good reason. Begin is always taking stupid penalties and this one cost the team dearly.

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04-11-2007, 08:58 AM
  #84
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3 posts and this turns in a Koivu-bashing thread. Congrats guys!

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Old
04-11-2007, 09:00 AM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onice View Post
Koivu is a #1 centre. I'll go further than that. He's in the top ten centremen in the league.

Just so we can have an exercise that will show you that you should not be talking out of your rear end - it's dangerous - name me nine other centremen that you would take in place of Koivu.
I won't make a list of players I would take instead of Koivu, as he is still the Captain right now but here is a very short list (more then 9) of players that could make you think again of what you just said:

In no order

E. Staal
E. Malkin
V. LeCavalier
J. Thornthon
P. Marleau
P. Datsyuk
D. Brière
M. Ribeiro
J. Spezza
O. Jokinen
H. Sedin
B. Richards
M. Savard
P. Forsberg
P. Bergeron
P. Demitra
S. Gomez
S. Crosby

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04-11-2007, 09:01 AM
  #86
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The media's trade Koivu fever following the Habs exit from post season play was answered unequivocally by Gainey yesterday. I'm glad that Gainey has pledged to make sure Koivu has a supporting cast of players with the same desire to become Champions .

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04-11-2007, 09:01 AM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beowulf View Post
At least his was in the course of action and as even the CBC commentator said at the time it was an accidental hook. Begin swung his stick after the end of the period for no good reason. Begin is always taking stupid penalties and this one cost the team dearly.
And Koivu is the player with the most minor penalties on the team.

But anyway, why are we even arguing about this? You are just proving my point that it is not because you have a lot of heart and are a warrior (or "champion" in this case) that you are the best and most important player on the team. And Koivu simply is not good enough to do it by himself and he does not have a good enough supporting cast.

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Old
04-11-2007, 09:02 AM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by habhob View Post
I'm glad that Gainey has pledged to make sure Koivu has a supporting cast of players with the same desire to become Champions .
He has?!

You mean Samsonov, Kovalev and Niinimaa?!

The whole problem is that every year the GM goes "Koivu is a champion" so he's the captain and our best player and everything is fine and we don't need to get other players like that.

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Old
04-11-2007, 09:05 AM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanye West View Post
Bob Gainey has Spoken

"Koivu est un champion sans championnat. Mais il mange, il s'entraîne en champion. Un jour, il va gagner un championnat. Il a aussi exercé un grand leadership auprès des jeunes"

Translation

"Koivu is a Champion without a Championship ring. But he eats and Trains like a Champion. One day he is going to WIN that Championship. He also exercised great leadership towards our young players"


Alright boys and girls... no more Fighting... Gainey one of the Montreals "greatest leaders yaddi yadda" has just Spoken of our little "2nd line center not worth a 1st round pick Finn" as a Champion. Let us all remember, that the man played in montreal and won a cup here... he knows more about this kind of things then

Bergeron, Pednault, Villeneuve, Fournier, Jack Todd, Pj Stock name any of our Journalists + Analysts + Fans.. So please please....let us leave this alone.
So what if Gainey said that ? He's not a good GM in my books, so it removes all his credibility.

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Old
04-11-2007, 09:07 AM
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanye West View Post
Bob Gainey has Spoken

"Koivu est un champion sans championnat. Mais il mange, il s'entraîne en champion. Un jour, il va gagner un championnat. Il a aussi exercé un grand leadership auprès des jeunes"

Translation

"Koivu is a Champion without a Championship ring. But he eats and Trains like a Champion. One day he is going to WIN that Championship. He also exercised great leadership towards our young players"


Alright boys and girls... no more Fighting... Gainey one of the Montreals "greatest leaders yaddi yadda" has just Spoken of our little "2nd line center not worth a 1st round pick Finn" as a Champion. Let us all remember, that the man played in montreal and won a cup here... he knows more about this kind of things then

Bergeron, Pednault, Villeneuve, Fournier, Jack Todd, Pj Stock name any of our Journalists + Analysts + Fans.. So please please....let us leave this alone.
Badly misquoted.

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Old
04-11-2007, 09:08 AM
  #91
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Originally Posted by WEEB View Post
And Koivu is the player with the most minor penalties on the team.

But anyway, why are we even arguing about this? You are just proving my point that it is not because you have a lot of heart and are a warrior (or "champion" in this case) that you are the best and most important player on the team. And Koivu simply is not good enough to do it by himself and he does not have a good enough supporting cast.
I mostly agree with your points WEEB. You're not bashing Koivu for the sake of it.

It's true that Koivu has not had enough support. It's true that he's taking a lot of penalties.

The thing is, he has been the best player on the team for too many seasons. He's a good player, he has a lot of heart, and rarely if ever he has been the reason why this team has not achieved greater results.

This team will never be better so long as we keep underperforming overated players on it. It's that simple. With Koivu or without.

If we don't start bringing in more players that can make a difference instead of paying the big bucks for average and/or underperforming players such as Kovalev, Samsonov, Dandenault, Bonk, Johnson, Bouillon and Aebischer... we'll never get anywhere.

We'll be able to tell in september wether this team will finish in between 7th or 11th or finally be secure in making the playoffs.

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04-11-2007, 09:09 AM
  #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by habhob
I'm glad that Gainey has pledged to make sure Koivu has a supporting cast of players with the same desire to become Champions .

Quote:
Originally Posted by WEEB View Post
He has?!

You mean Samsonov, Kovalev and Niinimaa?!

The whole problem is that every year the GM goes "Koivu is a champion" so he's the captain and our best player and everything is fine and we don't need to get other players like that.
Maybe after the off season changes and adjustments we will have a much better competitive team .

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04-11-2007, 09:10 AM
  #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onice View Post
The point of my post, JatmzB, was not to start a debate about Sundin or any other centreman. My post was trying to point that there are very few centres that are better than Koivu. And those #$%^$& centres will cost a whole lot more than Koivu and some of them do not have the leadership qualities that he brings to the table.
I understand your intentions. My point is, there hasn't been all that much rational debate on these boards the past couple of days, and the "name 10 centres better than Saku" lists have happened before, and it always turns ugly. I was just hoping to avoid it.

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Old
04-11-2007, 09:11 AM
  #94
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Originally Posted by NORiculous View Post
I won't make a list of players I would take instead of Koivu, as he is still the Captain right now but here is a very short list (more then 9) of players that could make you think again of what you just said:

In no order

E. Staal
.
.
.
M. Ribeiro
.
.
.
S. Crosby
We went there..

This thread is officially dead.

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Old
04-11-2007, 09:12 AM
  #95
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Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
We went there..

This thread is officially dead.
Yup...

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Old
04-11-2007, 09:17 AM
  #96
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Originally Posted by WEEB View Post
So?

He's a champion. Huzzah.

That doesn't change that the Habs are asking too much of him as a number one guy with zero support. Being a captain doesn't mean being the best player on the team, as far as I know Carbo and Gainey were never the best players on the Habs.

And there lies the problem. It isn't with Koivu, it's with what the organization has been thinking of him for the past 10 years, that he is alone going to lead the team.

So yeah, he might be a champion, but we need a better #1 guy, whether he stays or goes.

Oh, and please don't give me the heart ********. Guess what, Steve Begin and Francis Bouillon also have a lot of heart, that doesn't make them great players.
I agree with the end result of what you say, though I'm not sure that they think this way. They haven't done a good enough job of supporting good players with good players. It's better than it was, you can see how a key addition or 2 could make an impact with some nice building blocks in place.

Needing a better player has nothing to do with #11 , his presence has nothing to do with the need.

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Old
04-11-2007, 09:20 AM
  #97
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Originally Posted by habhob View Post
Maybe after the off season changes and adjustments we will have a much better competitive team .
Personally, I give one last chance to Gainey to have a good off season. If he repeats the same mistakes he has for the past 2 summers, I will lose all hope (EDIT: of seeing Gainey turn this team around).

Over the past 2-3 days, we've had Boivin stepping in there saying things like we don't need to overpay middle of the pack guys anymore because our young players have started taking spots in our line up which allows us to free a lot of money to get top quality players. And we have Gainey saying he has the money to bring in top quality players but doesn't offer any guaranty.

Personally, I doubt it. Just for the reason we will still be stuck with Dandenault, Bouillon and Kovalev. And we'll most likely have to buy out Samsonov..

Gainey has a very very very tough job ahead of him this summer. I want to see some magic. I want a miracle turn over. It doesn't take 4 seasons to turn a team into a winner. Gainey had good assets when he stepped in. It was nowhere near as bad as when A.Savard stepped in after Houle. Now we need to see results, if we miss the playoffs again next season, it's pretty sad.

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Old
04-11-2007, 09:21 AM
  #98
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Originally Posted by HABS456 View Post
So what if Gainey said that ? He's not a good GM in my books, so it removes all his credibility.
Ok, thanks. Please keep us updated as to who is good enough for you, so we can keep our credability-o-meter well adjusted.

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04-11-2007, 09:23 AM
  #99
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Koivu is not reliable for the uncessesses of this team. He's one of the ones who did his best year after year with a cheap roster.

How can you say that it's all Koivu's fault? While you put him on a team like NJ in the beginning of the 2000's as a captain, he may have win a cup....

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04-11-2007, 09:25 AM
  #100
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Originally Posted by HABS456 View Post
So what if Gainey said that ? He's not a good GM in my books, so it removes all his credibility.
I think he has some experience in recognizing a certain mentality that some players have. There are qualities that people/players have that make then winners. Gainey has a nice track record of observung this quality. He has it. Gainey is a winner and if he isn't, then I don't understand what the word means.

If Gainey had been drafted by another team, he may not have won a Stanley Cup. A lot of winners never hit the right circumstance.

Whether or not Gainey is a good GM is a different issue,but he was talking about the character of the guy, and he's eminently qualified to talk about that.

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