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Ben Bishop franchise goalie?

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Old
04-10-2007, 09:10 PM
  #1
The Fuhr*
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Ben Bishop franchise goalie?

I think he has the potential?

His numbers this year 21-9-2 2.14GAA .923sv%

Not that his numbers are a future indicator of greatness but Bishop is only 20 years old and 6'7 220lbs right now.

He plays a butterfly style and against butterfly goalies when they go down you shoot high, this is how they get beat. How can you shoot high on Bishop when he goes down do to his size.

His agility is great and his lateral movement is pretty good too. I don't know who the Blues goalie coach is but if they have a good one and can make his technical game superb always square to the shooter to go along with his other abilities he's going to become near impossible goalie to beat.

A technical butterfly goaltender that is 6'7 220lbs and has great agility and quick lateral movement can't be beat in my mind.

I can't wait to watch him develop over the next 3-5 years, I feel he is going to become so good. Thats my thoughts anyways.

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04-10-2007, 11:23 PM
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I saw him in the playoffs. He reminded me of Ron Hextall or Sean Burke and hes pretty good at puck handling. I think he is sound on the first shot but, he is
a little slow getting up to block the rebound. I think the Blues are set in
goal for a few years with him and Scwartz.

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04-11-2007, 12:12 AM
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I've been saying this for awhile now.

Unfortunitly during the frozen four i thought he looked realy stiff and didn't play to his potenial. During that game against State he was slow to get up from the butterfly but normaly I've seen him bounce back up with surprising speed. Hes a lock in my mind as a NHLer.

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04-11-2007, 04:08 AM
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"Franchise" goalies are EXTREMELY rare. To give that label to somebody you have to be talking about a Roy/Broduer/Hasek/(Maybe)Luongo caliber player.

Simply put; I don't think Bishop has anywhere NEAR that kind of potential.
That said, Bishop looks to have all the tools to be a legit NHL starter. He still has some work to do(his stickhandling is VERY hit or miss, he still needs a little work on his fundamentals and he is still fairly inconsistent) but the talent is definately there for him to work with.

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04-11-2007, 05:57 AM
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I really think he will cement himself as a top goalie prospect in the next two years especially when he reaches the AHL. If a goalie coach can cement Bishops technical game and with his other attributes he will be impossible to beat. Against butterfly goalies your always taught to shoot high when they go down, it will be impossible to go high on Bishop when he drops down when he becomes polished in net. He will be fantastic.

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04-11-2007, 06:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuhr86 View Post
I really think he will cement himself as a top goalie prospect in the next two years especially when he reaches the AHL. If a goalie coach can cement Bishops technical game and with his other attributes he will be impossible to beat. Against butterfly goalies your always taught to shoot high when they go down, it will be impossible to go high on Bishop when he drops down when he becomes polished in net. He will be fantastic.
MAYBE.
On the other hand; do you think even somebody like Stempy or Boyes(much less the Crosby's and Ovechkin's of the league) would have any trouble exploiting the 5-hole of a 6'7" goalie? Bishop's size will go both ways. Yes, it's an advantage when he's in the butterfly; but it's every bit the disadvantage when he's standing up. For Bishop to make the NHL he'll have to find out how to play to both sides of the issue. Maybe he does that; maybe he doesn't. Until he shows me that he can cover that disadvantage I'm not willing to label him a "sure fire" starter at the NHL level; much less a potential "Franchise" goalie. Bishop is a project with high upside. He still has a lot of developing to do.

At this point I still consider Schwarz to be the better prospect(by a VERY large margin) and I don't even consider him to be on the "Franchise" level.

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04-11-2007, 10:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kimzey59 View Post
MAYBE.
On the other hand; do you think even somebody like Stempy or Boyes(much less the Crosby's and Ovechkin's of the league) would have any trouble exploiting the 5-hole of a 6'7" goalie? Bishop's size will go both ways. Yes, it's an advantage when he's in the butterfly; but it's every bit the disadvantage when he's standing up. For Bishop to make the NHL he'll have to find out how to play to both sides of the issue. Maybe he does that; maybe he doesn't. Until he shows me that he can cover that disadvantage I'm not willing to label him a "sure fire" starter at the NHL level; much less a potential "Franchise" goalie. Bishop is a project with high upside. He still has a lot of developing to do.

At this point I still consider Schwarz to be the better prospect(by a VERY large margin) and I don't even consider him to be on the "Franchise" level.

Exactly. His size, while great for the butterfly position, exposes a massive 5-hole when he's moving laterally or standing up. Also, when you look at the great goalies historically, none of them have ever been tremendously large like BB. Most have been about 5'11"-6'2" and have the head game(confidence/intimidation factor) or work-ethic to go along with whatever physical gifts they possess(quick glove-hand, acrobatic movement, etc).

So yea, that's why I also prefer Schwarz to Bishop. Schwarz has good size at about 6'1", he's very fast although he doesn't play his angles consistently well enough. Another year in the AHL to allow him to build up his confidence would be tremendous and then I think people will start seeing how good he really can be.

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04-11-2007, 10:46 AM
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his quickness and recovery will have to improve. He reminds me of Roman Turek and 'Large' was looking like the real deal for a few seasons there too. As long as he has a strong work ethic to improve those 2 things and has an unshakeable confidence when facing some of the elite snipers you just don't see at the college level...he may well have the tools to be a very good goaltender. I'd love to say franchise but as has been stated, that term is reserved for a select few goaltenders and these days...those names seem to be dwindling.

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04-11-2007, 01:42 PM
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Originally Posted by fan in oregon View Post
I saw him in the playoffs. He reminded me of Ron Hextall or Sean Burke ...

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04-11-2007, 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by fan in oregon View Post
I saw him in the playoffs. He reminded me of Ron Hextall or Sean Burke and hes pretty good at puck handling.
His puckhandling is better than it was last season (when it was truly spectacluar - both good and bad), but I still wouldn't call it good by any stretch.

And I'll agree ... if he's more like Sean Burke,

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04-11-2007, 01:53 PM
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Bishop is very tall. Any comparisons to Burke scare me. Burke has had flashes of brilliance for sure, but he's too tall to be able to just bounce back up when he goes down.

I have not seen Bishop play. Does he have trouble getting back to his feet?

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04-11-2007, 02:37 PM
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I still like Schwarz the most.

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04-11-2007, 03:09 PM
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Originally Posted by kimzey59 View Post
"Franchise" goalies are EXTREMELY rare. To give that label to somebody you have to be talking about a Roy/Broduer/Hasek/(Maybe)Luongo caliber player.

Simply put; I don't think Bishop has anywhere NEAR that kind of potential.
That said, Bishop looks to have all the tools to be a legit NHL starter. He still has some work to do(his stickhandling is VERY hit or miss, he still needs a little work on his fundamentals and he is still fairly inconsistent) but the talent is definately there for him to work with.
I agree.

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04-11-2007, 03:25 PM
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I still like Schwarz the most.
I disagree. I liked what I saw in him when he was drafted in 2004.

He had great numbers in Czech...

Marek at Plzen HC had a .922 Save%
At Trinec Ocelari HC he had a .931 Save%

I guess a red flag should have been raised when that same season at Sparta Praha he had a terrible 8 games with them at .896%

But it only got worse after he was drafted.

aHe went to the Giants in the WHL...And he was so bad, posting a 3.58 GAA and a 896 Save%, that he went back to Europe...

What happened next?? The Vancouver Giants won the Championship WITHOUT Schwraz in goal.

In 2005-06, Sure Schwraz did good at Sparta posting a .920 Save%. But again, he already proved himself in Czech.

So this year in 06-07, he comes over to play for the Blues and Peoria and puts up
a .880 with the Blues and .899 Save% with Peoria.

Those numbers are so bad, that Chris Beckford-Tseu, Sanford and Cash all had better Save% over this year, and even a couple over the last couple years in North America, compared to Schwarz.

To say you like Schwarz at this moment in April 2007 compared to Becford-Tseu, Barulin, and maybe even Bishop makes no sense to me.

I think Schwarz has a chance one day to be our goalie...A chance. But not a lock out of our goalies we have collected.

3 years as a 1st round pick and (most likely) working behind a 5th round pick next year is not acceptable.

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04-15-2007, 04:02 AM
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We know Schwarz isn't ready to be a full time NHL starter yet. Why do you think we resigned Legace for 2 years?

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04-15-2007, 07:30 AM
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Originally Posted by TrustInJarmo View Post
3 years as a 1st round pick and (most likely) working behind a 5th round pick next year is not acceptable.
What are you talking about?
1) Beckford-Tseu was the backup this year and will be again next year. Schwarz has NEVER taken the backseat to CBT.

2) You are focusing WAY too much on the SP and ignoring everything else about the kid. Schwarz was an AHL All-Star AS A ROOKIE and was called up to St. Louis 5 times during the season(which can TOTALLY throw a player off). Schwarz did NOTHING but impress this year. He still needs to work on a few issues(positioning, stamina, punckhandling) but there is no way you can look at this past season and present a logical case against him.

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04-15-2007, 05:21 PM
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What are you talking about?
1) Beckford-Tseu was the backup this year and will be again next year. Schwarz has NEVER taken the backseat to CBT.

2) You are focusing WAY too much on the SP and ignoring everything else about the kid. Schwarz was an AHL All-Star AS A ROOKIE and was called up to St. Louis 5 times during the season(which can TOTALLY throw a player off). Schwarz did NOTHING but impress this year. He still needs to work on a few issues(positioning, stamina, punckhandling) but there is no way you can look at this past season and present a logical case against him.
What am I talking about? What are YOU talking about? I said "3 years as a 1st round pick and (most likely) working behind a 5th round pick next year is not acceptable."

I didn't say anything about Schwarz was on "the bench" this year. I said I believe sometime NEXT YEAR. Based on his play compared to Becford-Tseu's play this year.

Trust me, I was as high on Schwarz as anyone in 2004 when we drafted him. I just think based on what he has shown over the last 3 years should be taken into account. Granted a goalie from 18 to 21 should not be judged on the rest of his career. But examples like, Schwarz team winning a Championship WITHOUT him on the team and not fixing his problems in net, when CBT has fixed a lot of his problems in net.

And the things he needs to work on is the same thing he needed to work on before he was drafted 3 years ago. And to have him not have these "little things" fixed 3 yeas later is still a major conern as well!

Becford-Tseu has looked better than Schwarz in many games this year! And another year together will show who is (as of right now) who the better goalie in Peoria is.

Again, I think Marek still has a chance to be "our guy" in net down the road. But to say he is far and away our number 1 goalie in the system is a huge mistake! Especially when we have Barulin and Bishop as well.

If you would have stated this in the summer of 2004, I would have agreed. But 3 years has passed and the things I am seeing out of this kid has absolutely changed my outlook on being 100% sold on this 21 year old.

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04-15-2007, 05:36 PM
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What are you talking about?
1) Beckford-Tseu was the backup this year and will be again next year. Schwarz has NEVER taken the backseat to CBT.

2) You are focusing WAY too much on the SP and ignoring everything else about the kid. Schwarz was an AHL All-Star AS A ROOKIE and was called up to St. Louis 5 times during the season(which can TOTALLY throw a player off). Schwarz did NOTHING but impress this year. He still needs to work on a few issues(positioning, stamina, punckhandling) but there is no way you can look at this past season and present a logical case against him.
QFA. You guys can talk all you want about how his save percentage deviated from one year to the next, blah blah, but I know talent when I see it and after the year he had this year, he got himself back on track to be a very good NHLer. I don't care what happened two years ago.

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04-15-2007, 05:44 PM
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I don't care what happened two years ago.
You make sure you are prepared to come back with that same line next year and the year after and don't bring up his 2006-2007 season.

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04-15-2007, 05:48 PM
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Bishop a Franchise Goalie????

I have no clue as to if he is or if is not. Like many, I haven't seen too many Maine games. But after reading some of the posts about this subject. I figure I would throw my 2 cents worth in on this subject.

In my estimation, the best prospects that get drafted on a year to year basis seem to come from everywhere else than the NCAA. Now I know they have a very good NCAA players every once in a while. But I think that the best prospects come in from across the atlantic ocean. And that means Bishop has not faced the best at his age. So before we ask or wonder if he is a Franchise Goalie, lets wait until he gets to a professional level first. But I guess it is fun to wonder.

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04-15-2007, 05:52 PM
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But I think that the best prospects come in from across the atlantic ocean.
And it's a real shame we might not ever get to have Konstantin Barulin come over and see what he can do in North America.

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04-16-2007, 05:42 PM
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Originally Posted by TrustInJarmo View Post
Those numbers are so bad, that Chris Beckford-Tseu, Sanford and Cash all had better Save% over this year, and even a couple over the last couple years in North America, compared to Schwarz.
CBT averged .900, though he was playing the backup roll for the most part. Sanford had a rough season, not a bad % of .888 on a fairly poor Blues team at the beginning of the year. Cash had a .885 and Schwarz had a .899.

Sanford and Cash have proven to be too injury prone to be the answer anyways. DBT barely had a better save % and I'd guess as he was the backup he got the easier games in the B2B's but I don't have the stats to prove it.

#'s aren't everything and even your stats don't back you up. What magical numbers am I missing that you're privy to?

Back on topic, I'd love it if Bishop came in and pushed Schwarz into a goaltender duel. Though San Jose can attest to the distraction that can be, Buffalo had a good tandem in Miller and Biron. I watch Biron on TSN and I like his demeanor the more I watch him.

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04-17-2007, 12:38 AM
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I think you shoud temper your enthusiasm if you think he's a franchise goalie. The tallest goalie ever is the Rangers' Steve Valiquette, i'm 95% sure. He's 6'6.

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04-17-2007, 02:14 AM
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I think you shoud temper your enthusiasm if you think he's a franchise goalie. The tallest goalie ever is the Rangers' Steve Valiquette, i'm 95% sure. He's 6'6.
He does not have the quickness and ability of Bishop though. Bishop is a giant with great skills.

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04-17-2007, 12:26 PM
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What am I talking about? What are YOU talking about? I said "3 years as a 1st round pick and (most likely) working behind a 5th round pick next year is not acceptable."

I didn't say anything about Schwarz was on "the bench" this year. I said I believe sometime NEXT YEAR. Based on his play compared to Becford-Tseu's play this year.
CBT was ahead of Schwarz in the developemental curve in EVERY aspect going into THIS season. He had already played at the AHL(and been called up to the NHL level) level; had a MUCH better understanding of how the Pro season unraveled and already dominated at the level below Peoria. By ALL rights he SHOULD have been ahead of Schwarz on the organizational depth chart going into this season.

He was relegated to the Backup position IMMEDIATELY out of camp.

What has happened that year that makes you think that CBT is somehow going to be the starter NEXT year over a guy who he was "theoretically" ahead before this year?

To be blunt; this entire premise is dumb. IF there was EVER a year that Schwarz would have "worked behind" CBT it would have been THIS season; NOT next.


Quote:
Trust me, I was as high on Schwarz as anyone in 2004 when we drafted him. I just think based on what he has shown over the last 3 years should be taken into account. Granted a goalie from 18 to 21 should not be judged on the rest of his career. But examples like, Schwarz team winning a Championship WITHOUT him on the team and not fixing his problems in net, when CBT has fixed a lot of his problems in net.
1) Last years Giant's team was a LOT different than the one Schwarz was a part of. To even COMPARE the two teams is ludicrous. To make the suggestion that Schwarz was somehow "the reason" that the Giants were bad(and YES; you did make that suggestion) is complete and total nonsense.

Gilbert Brule was a part of that Giant's team also; I guess he was holding back their offense, right?

2) "Not fixing his problems in net"? What in the HECK are you talking about here? If Schwarz hadn't made at least SOME corrections to his game his SP(which you are using as a "be all, end all" stat) would have been sub-600. This statement is every bit as ludicrous as your suggestion in point #1. He still has things to work on; but he wouldn't even have made an ECHL team if he didn't make at least SOME corrections to his game.

Quote:
And the things he needs to work on is the same thing he needed to work on before he was drafted 3 years ago. And to have him not have these "little things" fixed 3 yeas later is still a major conern as well!
1) As said; this suggestion is complete and total lunacy. If Schwarz weren't making ANY corrections to his game he wouldn't have even MADE the Peoria squad; much less been their starter for the bulk of the year.

2) NO: his problems now are NOT the same as his problems when we drafted him. A number of his issues have disappeared completely(he used to give up HUGE rebounds and he cut down on them SIGNIFICANTLY this past year) and new problems have surfaced(after watching his decline down the stretch I have some questions about his stamina that I didn't before). That's how ALL prospects develope. The bottom line though is that he DID show that he was willing to do the work to correct those issues. That you couldn't see the difference is downright baffling and makes me question your ability to judge hockey players. It seems to me that your "judgement" is ENTIRELY based on the SP column of the stat sheet.

Quote:
Becford-Tseu has looked better than Schwarz in many games this year! And another year together will show who is (as of right now) who the better goalie in Peoria is.
As I said; in theory CBT was the superior goalie going INTO this year. If anything; history and logic would suggest that Schwarz's learning curb will FAR exceed CBT's by the end of next year.

In fact; I'm willing to put money on this. $20 bucks says that by the end of next year Schwarz is not only the undisputed starter in Peoria, but he's also pushing to be the backup goalie in St. Louis.

Quote:
Again, I think Marek still has a chance to be "our guy" in net down the road. But to say he is far and away our number 1 goalie in the system is a huge mistake! Especially when we have Barulin and Bishop as well.
Marek Schwarz is BY FAR the most talented goalie we have in the system. It's not even a close race. The kid has better speed, reflexes, side-to-side movement and recovery time than ANY of our other prospects. The kid has Hasek-like tools. There are other issues he needs to work on; but they are relatively easy to correct(his stamina problem is the hardest thing IMO and there are a NUMBER of workout routines that can improve that).

Compared to the other goalies in the system; Schwarz has the LEAST work to do before being NHL ready.

Based on that; I have NO PROBLEM calling Schwarz the best goalie prospect in the system. Note that I used the word "prospect" in that sentence because you seem to have a hard time understanding the meaning of that word.

Quote:
If you would have stated this in the summer of 2004, I would have agreed. But 3 years has passed and the things I am seeing out of this kid has absolutely changed my outlook on being 100% sold on this 21 year old.
1) Until a kid proves himself in the NHL the most I'd EVER go is 80% certainty. I am NOT labeling Schwarz "the goalie of the future" I said he's the best PROSPECT we have in the net at this time. I also made it VERY clear that I don't even consider HIM to be on a "franchise" level.

2) Your ENTIRE arguement is based on the importance of SP. Forgive for my bluntness; but that is an MMD type arguement(and for some reason I think you KNOW who MMD is/was) that I won't get into that on this board and is COMPLETELY flawed on MANY levels(the LEAST of which is the way you want to portray the stat). You have not established ANY other reason not to like Schwarz other than his Sp(which, BTW droped nearly 2 percent from the AHL All-Star game to the end of the season). He was not put on the AHL All Star team because of his "upside" or Win/Loss record. Schwarz was DOMINANT for his first 3 months in Peoria and then hit a WALL in the second half. We see this all the time with European prospects and it says NOTHING about their ability, potential or status as a prospect. Unless I see a sign that Schwarz is regressing; I still consider him to be BY FAR the best goalie prospect we have.

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