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A different look at the standings

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Old
04-11-2007, 04:07 AM
  #1
fumanchou
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A different look at the standings

Hello,

Just feeling to share some number crushings. In fact, I never liked the NHL point system with the 1 point for an overtime loss, especially since the introduction of the shootouts. From a mathematical point of view, I think this system is an aberration. For me there is 3 ways to end a game (in regualtion, in overtime or in shootout) thus I would suggest to use a 5-point-per-game system:

A win in regulation (RW) = 5 points
A win in overtime (OW) = 4 points
A win in shootout (SW) = 3 points
A loss in shootout (SL) = 2 points
A loss in overtime (OL) = 1 point
A loss in regulation (RL) = no point

Based on that I rewrote the East standings for fun, and I get the following:

TEAM RW-OW-SW-SL-OL-RL PTS

BUFFALO 38-5-10-4-3-22 251
OTTAWA 44-2-2-6-3-25 249
MONTREAL 34-2-6-5-1-34 207
TORONTO 32-4-4-7-4-31 206
BOSTON 22-4-9-4-2-41 163

NEW JERSEY 36-3-10-8-1-24 239
PITTSBURGH 31-6-10-6-5-24 226
NEW YORK R 30-3-9-5-5-30 204
NEW YORK I 30-2-8-5-7-30 199
PHILADELPHIA 18-3-1-6-6-48 123

ATLANTA 29-7-7-4-7-28 209
CAROLINA 34-5-1-5-3-34 206
TAMPA BAY 29-5-10-2-3-33 202
FLORIDA 30-3-2-9-7-31 193
WASHINGTON 23-4-1-11-3-40 151

And for the playoffs:

1-BUFFALO 38-5-10-4-3-22 251
2-NEW JERSEY 36-3-10-8-1-24 239
3-ATLANTA 29-7-7-4-7-28 209
4-OTTAWA 44-2-2-6-3-25 249
5-PITTSBURGH 31-6-10-6-5-24 226
6-MONTREAL 34-2-6-5-1-34 207
7-CAROLINA 34-5-1-5-3-34 206
8-TORONTO 32-4-4-7-4-31 206

Not much difference in the top 5 but somewhat interesting for the last 3 spots.

Have fun.


Last edited by fumanchou: 04-11-2007 at 04:14 AM.
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Old
04-11-2007, 09:17 AM
  #2
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Interesting, but seriously complicated. The Habs would be in the play-offs if loser points weren't awarded, we know that much. The Habs problem was they didn't get enough games to go into overtime, a couple too many regulation losses.

No way the NHL changes it, even though they should. I would prefer 2 points for a win, nothing for a loss. Before the shoot-out, if you lost in O.T., you lost. I don't see why we changed that.

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Old
04-11-2007, 10:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by westcoast habsfan View Post
Interesting, but seriously complicated. The Habs would be in the play-offs if loser points weren't awarded, we know that much. The Habs problem was they didn't get enough games to go into overtime, a couple too many regulation losses.

No way the NHL changes it, even though they should. I would prefer 2 points for a win, nothing for a loss. Before the shoot-out, if you lost in O.T., you lost. I don't see why we changed that.
It's easy.

Regulation time win = 3 pts.
Overtime/Shootout win = 2 pts
Overtime loss in OT or Shootout = 1 pt
Regulation loss = 0 pts.

Not that much difference, but since you don't win in regulation time, you shouldn't get the same amount of points.

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Old
04-11-2007, 10:27 AM
  #4
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Its easy,

pts for a win: 1 (All kinds of wins)
pts for loss: 0 (All kinds of losses)

Simple.

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Old
04-11-2007, 10:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WeThreeKings View Post
It's easy.

Regulation time win = 3 pts.
Overtime/Shootout win = 2 pts
Overtime loss in OT or Shootout = 1 pt
Regulation loss = 0 pts.

Not that much difference, but since you don't win in regulation time, you shouldn't get the same amount of points.
How about 2 pts win and 0pts loss like it always used to be. If we're going to make all games equal we should be going back to 2pt games instead of 3pt games. This way the games are worth as much as they were in 1950, etc.

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04-11-2007, 11:06 AM
  #6
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I actually like the current system. It's a bit backward but creates exciting playoff races, and that's what we should all be asking for. Just because we're on the outside looking in doesn't mean the system is wrong, or needs to be changed.

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04-11-2007, 11:19 AM
  #7
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Originally Posted by Souray44 View Post
How about 2 pts win and 0pts loss like it always used to be. If we're going to make all games equal we should be going back to 2pt games instead of 3pt games. This way the games are worth as much as they were in 1950, etc.
lol, what's the point of having 2 points for a win then, if there's no ties or consolation points? Just give each game 1 point, and judge position in standings by number of games back, like most other professional sports (NBA, MLB for sure). I'd certainly prefer it to the current system.

Also, from the first post in this thread, what in the world is number crushing? Like, smashing up numbers really small so they dissolve better? Or, giving them a big bear hug?

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Old
04-11-2007, 11:49 AM
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2 points for a win, 0 for a loss, 0 for a tie. No shootout, 5 minute overtime.

Can you imagine how hard teams would fight for a goal in the OT and end of the 3rd?

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04-11-2007, 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by fufonzo View Post
2 points for a win, 0 for a loss, 0 for a tie. No shootout, 5 minute overtime.

Can you imagine how hard teams would fight for a goal in the OT and end of the 3rd?
That would be excellent. Make the overtime period 10 minutes for more quality hockey to watch. 4 on 4 overtime?

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04-11-2007, 12:45 PM
  #10
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Should be:

Regular time win = 2 points
OT/Shootout win = 1 point
Loss = 0 point

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04-11-2007, 01:15 PM
  #11
Vlad The Impaler
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fumanchou View Post
Hello,

Just feeling to share some number crushings. In fact, I never liked the NHL point system with the 1 point for an overtime loss, especially since the introduction of the shootouts. From a mathematical point of view, I think this system is an aberration. For me there is 3 ways to end a game (in regualtion, in overtime or in shootout) thus I would suggest to use a 5-point-per-game system:

A win in regulation (RW) = 5 points
A win in overtime (OW) = 4 points
A win in shootout (SW) = 3 points
A loss in shootout (SL) = 2 points
A loss in overtime (OL) = 1 point
A loss in regulation (RL) = no point
I've been a fan of this system for many years.

My motivation is that this would make the first 60 minutes of play a lot more meaningful and thus, hopefully more intense in general. Every step of the performance would count and a regulation loss would be truly devastating (as it should).

There's no way to know what the standings would have looked like this year, however. Because such a system would have led to a different style of hockey games.

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Old
04-11-2007, 01:26 PM
  #12
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Leave the structure the way that it is and stop coming up with point structures that put us in the playoffs. The team has to be able to win with the current system. I'd love nothing more than to be watching the Habs this week, but the reality is that they couldn't pull it off. Would this seriously even be a topic if the Habs made it in to the playoofs?

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04-11-2007, 01:33 PM
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OK my take
For one I hate the way the NHL points system is because the value of points are not weighed properly. Also the fact of 3 point games when others are valued at 2 points make the standings inflated.

What I would prefer to do, would be the system of 3 points for a win/OT win and 0 for a loss or ot loss and 2/1 point for shootout win loss

The most important thing is for ALL GAMES to have equal value in terms of points awarded.

This has nothing to do with the habs not making it, I haven't checked how it would be if this system would put us in the playoff and I don't care if it would. The only thing I care about is not making our sport look ridiculous. No other sports offer different valued games. I personally think it's insulting, just does not make sense to me how they think it is a proper way of awarding points.

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04-11-2007, 01:36 PM
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That would be excellent. Make the overtime period 10 minutes for more quality hockey to watch. 4 on 4 overtime?
Ron MacLean asked Bettman about this. Bettman answered something like 5 minutes of OT without an ice flood was marginal but 10 minutes was out of the question. So add 10+ minutes for a flood + the additional 5 minutes of stop time and you're approaching 20 minutes tacked on at the end of games. Not anyones favorite idea.

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Old
04-11-2007, 01:53 PM
  #15
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2 PTS for a win OT or Regulation
1 PT for SOL
0 PT for loss in OT or Regulation

I can't bring myslef to give no pts to a team that lost in the SO because I think SO are a retarded way to end a hockey game :-(

If I was thinking the SO is a valid way to end a game, I'd go full out and say 2 pts for a win 0 for a loss and that's it.

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04-11-2007, 01:55 PM
  #16
E = CH²
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Originally Posted by Darkside Cowboy View Post
Should be:

Regular time win = 2 points
OT/Shootout win = 1 point
Loss = 0 point
Or..

Regular/OT win = 2 points
SO win = 1 point
Loss = 0 point

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Old
04-11-2007, 05:07 PM
  #17
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3 points for a regulation win,
2 points for a overtime win/shootout win,
1 point for an overtime/shootout loss,
0 points for a loss in regulation or what the NHL would probably do is award a team .25 points for coming out that night to play.

This way all games will be worth the same number of points. Logically, even though the NHL possesses very little of it, an extra point cannot appear from thin air when 1 minute before there were only two points to be had.

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Old
04-11-2007, 06:30 PM
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
2 PTS for a win OT or Regulation
1 PT for SOL
0 PT for loss in OT or Regulation

I can't bring myslef to give no pts to a team that lost in the SO because I think SO are a retarded way to end a hockey game :-(

If I was thinking the SO is a valid way to end a game, I'd go full out and say 2 pts for a win 0 for a loss and that's it.
Not a bad idea, but I think this would make OT useless. No team would be willing to take a chance of winning, they would just play boring defensive hockey and take their chances in the SO, IMO.

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04-11-2007, 06:54 PM
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The only thing I like about your too much complicate system is the fact that ALL the games are worth the same amount of points. It is obviously ridiculious that an overtime game ends up giving 3 points to the standings instead of the 2 points that would give a game in regulation. The simpliest thing to do is :

2 points for a win
0 points for a loss

That's it.

And if you were looking to find a way to read the standings so the Canadiens would make the playoffs this year, I beleive the low number of OT loss we have would give us an advantage even with this "all games are worth two points" system.

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04-11-2007, 07:33 PM
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Originally Posted by TornACL View Post
The only thing I like about your too much complicate system is the fact that ALL the games are worth the same amount of points. It is obviously ridiculious that an overtime game ends up giving 3 points to the standings instead of the 2 points that would give a game in regulation. The simpliest thing to do is :

2 points for a win
0 points for a loss

That's it.

And if you were looking to find a way to read the standings so the Canadiens would make the playoffs this year, I beleive the low number of OT loss we have would give us an advantage even with this "all games are worth two points" system.
In that case make it 1 point. The reason it was 2 was for ties where each team would get a point.

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04-11-2007, 09:33 PM
  #21
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Leave the structure the way that it is and stop coming up with point structures that put us in the playoffs. The team has to be able to win with the current system. I'd love nothing more than to be watching the Habs this week, but the reality is that they couldn't pull it off. Would this seriously even be a topic if the Habs made it in to the playoofs?
Um, yeah, this system has been teh suck since the the SO was introduced. I say they use the KISS method and go with Wins and Losses and drop the arbirtrary points system once and for all.

BTW, Habs would have made the playoffs in that system, too, but that's neither here nor there.

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04-11-2007, 11:34 PM
  #22
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lol, what's the point of having 2 points for a win then, if there's no ties or consolation points? Just give each game 1 point, and judge position in standings by number of games back, like most other professional sports (NBA, MLB for sure). I'd certainly prefer it to the current system.

Also, from the first post in this thread, what in the world is number crushing? Like, smashing up numbers really small so they dissolve better? Or, giving them a big bear hug?
I'd stick with 2 points. The league has historically rewarded wins as 2 points and keeping with tradition thats what they should go back to.

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Old
04-12-2007, 02:51 AM
  #23
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Regulation win 3 Points
Overtime win 2 Points
Shootout win 1 Point

any ideas?

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Old
04-12-2007, 09:55 AM
  #24
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3 points for a regulation win,
2 points for a overtime win/shootout win,
1 point for an overtime/shootout loss,
0 points for a loss in regulation or what the NHL would probably do is award a team .25 points for coming out that night to play.

This way all games will be worth the same number of points. Logically, even though the NHL possesses very little of it, an extra point cannot appear from thin air when 1 minute before there were only two points to be had.
That's my favorite. That or the good old 2 pts for a win, 1 pt for a draw, nothing for a loss. But we're not going back that way...

I really don't like an extra point awarded for a draw. If you have less points awarded for some games, it's gotta be the draw that ends up with less points awarded !

And I don't care if it would be good or bad for the Habs, I never liked that extra "draw point" from the start. If you really want to make all the games meaningful, cut badly the number of games played ! We're not going that way either...

But really, that 3rd point for a regulation point would be a real improvement. And it wouldn't make the end of the season less interesting, as some teams would be able to close bigger gaps in the standings with 3 points available every night...

The 5/4/3/2/1 seems a bit "too much". And a 5 minute OT is as close to the SO crapshoot as possible.

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04-12-2007, 10:02 AM
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fumanchou View Post
Hello,

Just feeling to share some number crushings. In fact, I never liked the NHL point system with the 1 point for an overtime loss, especially since the introduction of the shootouts. From a mathematical point of view, I think this system is an aberration. For me there is 3 ways to end a game (in regualtion, in overtime or in shootout) thus I would suggest to use a 5-point-per-game system:

A win in regulation (RW) = 5 points
A win in overtime (OW) = 4 points
A win in shootout (SW) = 3 points
A loss in shootout (SL) = 2 points
A loss in overtime (OL) = 1 point
A loss in regulation (RL) = no point

Based on that I rewrote the East standings for fun, and I get the following:

TEAM RW-OW-SW-SL-OL-RL PTS

BUFFALO 38-5-10-4-3-22 251
OTTAWA 44-2-2-6-3-25 249
MONTREAL 34-2-6-5-1-34 207
TORONTO 32-4-4-7-4-31 206
BOSTON 22-4-9-4-2-41 163

NEW JERSEY 36-3-10-8-1-24 239
PITTSBURGH 31-6-10-6-5-24 226
NEW YORK R 30-3-9-5-5-30 204
NEW YORK I 30-2-8-5-7-30 199
PHILADELPHIA 18-3-1-6-6-48 123

ATLANTA 29-7-7-4-7-28 209
CAROLINA 34-5-1-5-3-34 206
TAMPA BAY 29-5-10-2-3-33 202
FLORIDA 30-3-2-9-7-31 193
WASHINGTON 23-4-1-11-3-40 151

And for the playoffs:

1-BUFFALO 38-5-10-4-3-22 251
2-NEW JERSEY 36-3-10-8-1-24 239
3-ATLANTA 29-7-7-4-7-28 209
4-OTTAWA 44-2-2-6-3-25 249
5-PITTSBURGH 31-6-10-6-5-24 226
6-MONTREAL 34-2-6-5-1-34 207
7-CAROLINA 34-5-1-5-3-34 206
8-TORONTO 32-4-4-7-4-31 206

Not much difference in the top 5 but somewhat interesting for the last 3 spots.

Have fun.

Simply put: I LOVE this idea. However, it's ****ing way to radical. You'd turn of so many fans by having teams boasting about their 250 point seasons, in addition to the legendary hockey players that would protest. They'd insist that the points system must be kept the way it is so that the special accomplishments of the 90's wings and 70's Habs would be remembered.

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