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Old
12-18-2003, 07:44 AM
  #1
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Philly & other good teams

Are not afraid to make changes if they feel it will make their team better.

This will always be an achilies heel for the Isles and Milbury.

Unlike Clark who is afraid to add regardless of how his team is going if he feels the chnage will make them better, Milbury in his early days made moves just to make moves.

Now a days, he subtracts at probably the worst time when they are winning and doesn't add when they are probably playing much better which stregthens his position.

To a man, everyone here says were are not an elite team, don't you think milbury should be finding ways to make us better, it's clear we peaked in Lavy's 1st year, fell off in year to or should I say, became the team we really were. Year 3 has shown no real signs of being any different than year 2.

I think he should be paying close attention to possible options that are out there.

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12-18-2003, 08:25 AM
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There is also no comparison between the resources Philadelphia has to make mistakes in deals because they can always sign another player to correct it. What would Milbury's Islanders look like with another twenty million and the option to add a player like Amonte at the trade deadline?

Nothing to say about 4-0-0-1 Oz ?

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12-18-2003, 08:26 AM
  #3
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Welcome back Ozzy:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozbad
Now a days, he subtracts at probably the worst time when they are winning and doesn't add when they are probably playing much better which stregthens his position.
I think it wasn't the fact that they subtracted at the worst time, it was the reason given that irked me and probably irked many of the players. The reason given being "dumping salary". The Flyers don't have that issue and make moves to "improve their team", and everyone can live with that. It's the reality of the situation on the Island. The Isles are overpaying in some areas that at times are not playing up to their potential. They generally have a mid market team, in a high market area but are bringing in low market revenue. It's a big problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozbad
I think he should be paying close attention to possible options that are out there.
I think Milbury would be stupid not to be looking to improve the team at all times. The problem is, the "salary dump" aura is out there and we saw what happened last time and this team is playing super hockey again as they did early on and there is no reason to make a move.

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12-18-2003, 08:38 AM
  #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYIsles1
There is also no comparison between the resources Philadelphia has to make mistakes in deals because they can always sign another player to correct it. What would Milbury's Islanders look like with another twenty million and the option to add a player like Amonte at the trade deadline?

Nothing to say about 4-0-0-1 Oz ?

I partially agree. Clarke can get away with a lot because of his financial resources. For example, moving Oullett (or however you spell his name) was dumb, but Clark had the $ to just go out and sign Hackett.

However, the mark of a good GM is one who manages his resources optimally, and our GM does not do that. the payroll got tight because he insisted on trading lots of young inexpensive players for expensive vets who weren't always a whole lot more productive (like turning Torres and Mezei into Janne N. and Wiemer). And, as for the Wiemer debacle, the Isles made that move to save $1.8 million. IF the Isles had not signed Czerkawski (who is a total waste since his hot streak in the early part of the year) and had managed to do something productive with Timander's contract, they would have already made that money up and not had to lose an important player for nothing.

There are GMs like Clarke and Sather who have lots of resources, and manage those resources badly. But, there are also GMs like ours, who have more limited resources that they manage badly.

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12-18-2003, 08:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozbad
.

This will always be an achilies heel for the Isles and Milbury.

Unlike Clark who is afraid to add regardless of how his team is going if he feels the chnage will make them better, Milbury in his early days made moves just to make moves.

Now a days, he subtracts at probably the worst time when they are winning and doesn't add when they are probably playing much better which stregthens his position.

I think he should be paying close attention to possible options that are out there.
Having milbury trade..is a scary option
considering all the bad rumors surrounding the Isles

God only knows...what horrible move might happen..

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Old
12-18-2003, 09:07 AM
  #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
I partially agree. Clarke can get away with a lot because of his financial resources. For example, moving Oullett (or however you spell his name) was dumb, but Clarke had the $ to just go out and sign Hackett.


There are GMs like Clarke and Sather who have lots of resources, and manage those resources badly. But, there are also GMs like ours, who have more limited resources that they manage badly.
Clarke isn't the best GM in the game, but comparing him to Sather is pretty harsh. IMO Clarke fall into the 4-10 rang among current GM's.

A few things on the Ouellet trade.

At the time we had Cechmanek and Boucher at the NHL level. We also had 2 other highly touted goalie prospects (Malek & Niittymaki).

At the time the deal was made, Clarke (after using his assets wisely) had amassed 9 draft picks in the top 3 rounds of the draft, there fore he had extra picks to move.

The night before the trade deadline, Roenick tore ligaments in his knee and Primeau cracked a few ribs. So 18 hours before the trade deadline we lost our top 2 centerman, and Roenick was feared lost for the season.

The team was trying to win the Cup that year. In the end the team played poorly in the playoffs, so the deal didn't work out.

However the Flyers still had enough draft picks left to make a deal for the 4th overall pick (Pitkanen) just a few months later.

Ouellet just won his first NHL game this week, and likely won't become an elite NHL goalie for another 3-5 years or so (if ever). By that time most of the Flyers core (Roenick, Desjardins, LeClair, Recchi, Weinrich) will have retired or be gone.

---------------------------------------------------

Hackett was not signed to replace Ouellet, he was brought in to replace Cechmanek.

-------------------------------------------------

Is Clarke helped by the fact he has a bigger budget than most ? Absolutely. For the most part though he has spent wisely, of the current players only LeClair has a contract that is way out of line (extenuating circumstances).

Also over the passed 8 years or so, the Flyers have drafted as good as anyone in the NHL, when considering draft position.

Clarke's biggest flaw as a GM has not been in player selection, but in coaching choices. He has finally corrected that error.

------------------------------------------------

In the end Clarke hasn't yet delivered a Cup as a GM, so he hasn't been completely successful, but if I could trade him straight up for any other GM in the league, their would only be a handful of GM's I would rather have.

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Old
12-18-2003, 01:33 PM
  #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
Clarke isn't the best GM in the game, but comparing him to Sather is pretty harsh.
Lordy, I agree with your sentiment. I agreed with Darth's post too until that point.

I guess the question is this:

Do you judge a GM's capabilities based on a strict ideology? For example, any trade of "futures" for experience is "bad". Or, conversely, any trade of in-their-prime players based on financial restraints is "bad".

Or, do you judge his entire body of work, on an ongoing basis, with regular season point totals and standings, and (especially) Stanley Cups as the measurement criteria?

For me, it's a simple choice. For if you use the first approach, Pierre Lacroix, architect of two Cups champions, is lousy, based on trading youngsters like Vrbata and Nedorost. And Lou Lamariello, architect of three Cup teams is lousy, based on trading away youngsters such as Morrison, Mitchell, etc.

Clarke is neither of them, but he has assembled a perennial Cup contender. Within that context, true, he has failed to date to get them to the top of the mountain. But he is trying, aggressively....

...which leads to the Ouellet deal. Some hold that up as a perfect example of the perils of giving up youth for "old players". I look as an example of why when you see a chance to win it all, you take it. Unquestionably, Oates wasn't the answer, the missing piece, for Philly. But Ouellet and the three picks would have been? A veteran Cup contender like Philly team would have never gone with a rookie in net. And the picks?...

Two years ago, Washington was a playoff team. Today, bolstered by that magnificent "heist" of the Flyers, they are...near the very bottom of the league.


Last edited by Trottier: 12-18-2003 at 03:53 PM.
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Old
12-18-2003, 02:37 PM
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trottier
Lordy, I agree with your sentiment. I agreed with Darth's post too until that point.

I guess the question is this:

Do you judge a GM's capabilities based on a strict ideology? For example, any trade of "futures" for experience is "bad". Or, conversely, any trade of in-their-prime players based on financial restraints is "bad".

Or, do you judge his entire body of work, on an ongoing basis, with regular saeason point totals and standings, and (especially) Stanley Cups as the measurement criteria?

For me, it's a simple choice. For if you use the first approach, Pierre Lacroix, architect of two Cups champions, is lousy, based on trading youngsters like Vrbata and Nedorost. And Lou Lamariello, architect of three Cup teams is lousy, based on trading away youngsters such as Morrison, Mitchell, etc.

Clarke is neither of them, but he has assembled a perennial Cup contender. Within that context, true, he has failed to date to get them to the top of the mountain. But he is trying, aggressively....

...which leads to the Ouellet deal. Some hold that up as a perfect example of the perils of giving up youth for "old players". I look as an example of why when you see a chance to win it all, you take it. Unquestionably, Oates wasn't the answer, the missing piece, for Philly. But Ouellet and the three picks would have been? A veteran Cup contender like Philly team would have never gone with a rookie in net. And the picks?...

Two years ago, Washington was a playoff team. Today, bolstered by that magnificent "heist" of the Flyers, they are...near the very bottom of the league.
Fair point. Clarke has assessembled a competitive team and Sather has not (for the most part). But, one has to wonder what a better GM would have done with all of those $. What would NJ's managment have done with that sort of budget?

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12-18-2003, 02:48 PM
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
Fair point. Clarke has assessembled a competitive team and Sather has not (for the most part). But, one has to wonder what a better GM would have done with all of those $. What would NJ's managment have done with that sort of budget?
I'm not trying to argue that Clarke has been better than Lamarillo. Lou is one of the handful of GM's that I would trade Clarke for.

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12-18-2003, 02:56 PM
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
I'm not trying to argue that Clarke has been better than Lamarillo. Lou is one of the handful of GM's that I would trade Clarke for.
Bobby Clarke has assembled a very good scouting staff, he's takem a fair amount of chances, but he's made a bunch of quality deals for his Flyers.

And, NJ isn't exactly a small-market team. They got a 50+ million dollar payroll. Lamerillo has his resources.

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Old
12-18-2003, 03:42 PM
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYIsles1
Nothing to say about 4-0-0-1 Oz ?

Never said they wouldn't put any stretches together but look for them to follow it up with 0-4-0-1

Thats what .500 teams do.

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12-18-2003, 03:59 PM
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
Fair point. Clarke has assessembled a competitive team and Sather has not (for the most part). But, one has to wonder what a better GM would have done with all of those $. What would NJ's managment have done with that sort of budget?
To your last point: Isn't it ironic that Sather assembled one of the greatest teams ever in a small-market, with a shootstring budget, while conversly he has failing to date in NY with abundant resource$ at his disposal?

People point to his later very average seasons in Edmonton, and also suggest that he was the beneficiary of good/lucky drafting at the start of the 80s, but he deserves his just due for those Cup teams...as well as strong criticism for his record since heading east.

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Old
12-19-2003, 05:01 AM
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozbad
Never said they wouldn't put any stretches together but look for them to follow it up with 0-4-0-1

Thats what .500 teams do.
The new streak has started. 0-1-0-0

Guy's, I more than anyone here want this team to be successful but
it won't be more than it is right now.

The Gm has to believe this is not a championship team and other parts are needed. What he has to do is inventory his players and decide
what parts need to be replaced. He's been 2 1/2 years with basically the same group, I think he should have an idea.

When he does that, he then moves them when they or the team are doing well to maximize the return.

If Hammer is not going to be resigned, he looks to hit on a good deal.
He doesn't wait until gm's know he's not resigning him.

Look at the Weimer thing. I mean tell me you can't get a draft pick
for him, regardless of what round. No, everyone new he was
needing to dump salary so they wait.

Milbury has shown nothing to tell me he can get this team to the championship calibre. One of you guys should tell Wang.


Last edited by Top Corner: 12-19-2003 at 09:47 AM.
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12-19-2003, 12:51 PM
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozbad
If Hammer is not going to be resigned, he looks to hit on a good deal.
He doesn't wait until gm's know he's not resigning him.
I'd be shocked if Hammer is here next year (if there is a next year) especially because of his contract and what he'd expect and his poor year so far.

-19

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12-20-2003, 10:16 AM
  #15
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NyIsles1 .... 0 - 2 - 0 - 0

Quote:
---------------------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted by NYIsles1
There is also no comparison between the resources Philadelphia has to make mistakes in deals because they can always sign another player to correct it. What would Milbury's Islanders look like with another twenty million and the option to add a player like Amonte at the trade deadline?

Nothing to say about 4-0-0-1 Oz ?
-------------------------------------------------------------


Quote:
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted by Ozbad
Never said they wouldn't put any stretches together but look for them to follow it up with 0-4-0-1

Thats what .500 teams do.
-------------------------------------------------------------------

I guess we are on the way to another continued losing streak.

No one should defend keeping thisteam together.

Ninnama is slow, their goaltending is not consistent enough. Every defenseman to a man always want to wind up when all they have to do is get the puck to the net when the shooting lane is free but by the time they wind up, the lane is clogged.

Doesn't take an NHL coach to see this

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12-20-2003, 10:26 AM
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozbad
Quote:
---------------------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted by NYIsles1
There is also no comparison between the resources Philadelphia has to make mistakes in deals because they can always sign another player to correct it. What would Milbury's Islanders look like with another twenty million and the option to add a player like Amonte at the trade deadline?

Nothing to say about 4-0-0-1 Oz ?
-------------------------------------------------------------


Quote:
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted by Ozbad
Never said they wouldn't put any stretches together but look for them to follow it up with 0-4-0-1

Thats what .500 teams do.
-------------------------------------------------------------------

I guess we are on the way to another continued losing streak.

No one should defend keeping thisteam together.

Ninnama is slow, their goaltending is not consistent enough. Every defenseman to a man always want to wind up when all they have to do is get the puck to the net when the shooting lane is free but by the time they wind up, the lane is clogged.

Doesn't take an NHL coach to see this
C'mon, dude. I thought the Ranger$ badly outplayed the Isles and the Isles looked flat last night. But, the Isles can out strong tonight and simply got beat by a better team on home ice. It was a good came, we just didn't win.

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12-20-2003, 10:31 AM
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
C'mon, dude. I thought the Ranger$ badly outplayed the Isles and the Isles looked flat last night. But, the Isles can out strong tonight and simply got beat by a better team on home ice. It was a good came, we just didn't win.
Soft goals, terrible special teams, and miscommunications aren't going to allow for many wins in this league.

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12-20-2003, 11:31 AM
  #18
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Oz, you do know we have a gamethread to talk about the game?

We also have the topic you just started where all these quotes were from, why not just continue the same thread?

Which is why I merged both threads.

It was a tight game today and it could have gone either way.

Philadelphia got some late goals and won. Isles did not make enough plays and Snow did not stop Vandermeer from the outside. The Isles played hard and it's all I can ask of them. Philadelphia is a better team.

When the team was winning you did not have a thing to write, today your ready and waiting to announce the bad news immediately as soon as the Islanders lose the game.

Most fans get a little more out of our games and being a fan of the team than this.

You made your point ten times over and I think everyone gets it, I do.

It's the only point you seem to ever bring up along with a lot of in-fighting you cannot prove but take for granted.

You want Yashin, Peca and Hamrlik traded for anything they can get immediately. Maybe MM should just put everyone on waivers today because he cannot unload them in deals for another week. Of course no players with that money saved will ever want to play here, and no one will pay to watch the team play, but that's another story.

Of course if MM were Clark he could go upstairs to Ed Snyder add twenty million to get three scorers and a goaltender and he would be a gm who does for the Isles what good teams like Philadelphia do.

It is what it is with the Isles and there are a lot of teams in the middle of the league that go up and down all the time. And the Isles are a middle of the pack team in a very tough conference with a small budget.

Maybe this team is only so good and were going to have to live with the ups and downs and hope some players play better and they figure it out.

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12-20-2003, 04:34 PM
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYIsles1
Oz, you do know we have a gamethread to talk about the game?

We also have the topic you just started where all these quotes were from, why not just continue the same thread?

Which is why I merged both threads.

It was a tight game today and it could have gone either way.

Philadelphia got some late goals and won. Isles did not make enough plays and Snow did not stop Vandermeer from the outside. The Isles played hard and it's all I can ask of them. Philadelphia is a better team.

When the team was winning you did not have a thing to write, today your ready and waiting to announce the bad news immediately as soon as the Islanders lose the game.

Most fans get a little more out of our games and being a fan of the team than this.

You made your point ten times over and I think everyone gets it, I do.

It's the only point you seem to ever bring up along with a lot of in-fighting you cannot prove but take for granted.

You want Yashin, Peca and Hamrlik traded for anything they can get immediately. Maybe MM should just put everyone on waivers today because he cannot unload them in deals for another week. Of course no players with that money saved will ever want to play here, and no one will pay to watch the team play, but that's another story.

Of course if MM were Clark he could go upstairs to Ed Snyder add twenty million to get three scorers and a goaltender and he would be a gm who does for the Isles what good teams like Philadelphia do.

It is what it is with the Isles and there are a lot of teams in the middle of the league that go up and down all the time. And the Isles are a middle of the pack team in a very tough conference with a small budget.

Maybe this team is only so good and were going to have to live with the ups and downs and hope some players play better and they figure it out.
It seems you get a little ruffled when someone comments on the facts.
The only reason it seems like I bring it up 10 times is because someone else has jumped on a Stanley cup band wagon and I'm mearly trying to keep everyone focused that there still needs to be corrective adjustments. Only problem is the guy running this show has no clue what makes a good team and how to make moves to bring it along.

Sorry if you are a little upset that the 4-0-0-1 will invert itself shortly. I'd love for them to win every game but I'm realistic. I disagree that nothing can get done to improve this team without spending money . Only problem, Milbury wouldn't know it if it hit him.

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12-20-2003, 07:40 PM
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IslesFan17
Bobby Clarke has assembled a very good scouting staff, he's takem a fair amount of chances, but he's made a bunch of quality deals for his Flyers.

And, NJ isn't exactly a small-market team. They got a 50+ million dollar payroll. Lamerillo has his resources.
Clarkie's major fault as a GM, is undervaluing the goaltender postion.
Just look at who the FLYERS have had in goal, in the same period that Marty has backstopped the Debs to 3 CUPS!

That's the difference, bottom line!

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12-20-2003, 07:54 PM
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyers26
Clarkie's major fault as a GM, is undervaluing the goaltender postion.
Just look at who the FLYERS have had in goal, in the same period that Marty has backstopped the Debs to 3 CUPS!

That's the difference, bottom line!
Ya, but Marty Brodeur's don't exactly grow on trees.

Your not going to match NJ's goaltending, Marty's the top goalie in the game.

So why not let Esche try and establish himself?

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12-20-2003, 09:05 PM
  #22
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Quote:
Your not going to match NJ's goaltending, Marty's the top goalie in the game.
Quote:
So why not let Esche try and establish himself?
I've seen nothing to indicate that this isn't the plan.

I thought the Islanders played well today.Snow made some great saves, Peca hade the best kick save of the game! You played physical against a big team, in hostle territory.In the end only Roenick's skating and passing made the differnece, and he's a product of some of that big market cash.And didn't you just knock off NJ?

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12-20-2003, 09:17 PM
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fla.Flyer.Fan
I've seen nothing to indicate that this isn't the plan.

I thought the Islanders played well today.Snow made some great saves, Peca hade the best kick save of the game! You played physical against a big team, in hostle territory.In the end only Roenick's skating and passing made the differnece, and he's a product of some of that big market cash.And didn't you just knock off NJ?
Yes we did.

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12-20-2003, 09:19 PM
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozbad
The only reason it seems like I bring it up 10 times is because someone else has jumped on a Stanley cup band wagon ..............
Who said that??

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12-21-2003, 10:54 AM
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozbad
It seems you get a little ruffled when someone comments on the facts.
The only reason it seems like I bring it up 10 times is because someone else has jumped on a Stanley cup band wagon and I'm mearly trying to keep everyone focused that there still needs to be corrective adjustments. Only problem is the guy running this show has no clue what makes a good team and how to make moves to bring it along.

Sorry if you are a little upset that the 4-0-0-1 will invert itself shortly. I'd love for them to win every game but I'm realistic. I disagree that nothing can get done to improve this team without spending money . Only problem, Milbury wouldn't know it if it hit him.
Oz,

What would I be ruffled about? Were just talking hockey.

These are also the facts only as you see them. Just as my version is only as I see it.

I just do not think we need a new thread with the same quotes carried over to restart the same topic.

No one is going to fix the team problems no matter anyone writes about on a hockey message board, the team is going to do what they want to and they are the experts, not us.

I do not see anyone here jumping on a Stanley Cup bandwagon, however if they care to, that's up to them. To be realistic is to acknowledge the team is not that good, but that's how I see it.

I would hope as an Islander fan you would be a little upset too if the teams 4-0-0-1 streak became 0-4-0-1 or worse. You give the impression your looking forward to it just to prove a point. Also I do not think I have ever read one positive thing about you from this team.

But that's up to you also.

I do not know many fans who go to games to watch a gm in
his box. I root for the Islanders, did before Milbury and will long after he is a distant memory. Milbury I try to ignore because there is nothing that I can do to change it.

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