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Old
04-13-2007, 01:20 PM
  #26
Jim Schennson
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
we're not trading for someone that is 30 in this case... more like someone with 10+ years of NHL play in front of them. the picks you're coveting may, or may not become NHL players and then, in the event they make it, may, or may not become anything special at the NHL level.

i would not be interested in trading for a "bandaid fix" using either of those picks, but if you really think acquiring a proven top-line center who is a few years shy of 30 constitutes a "bandaid" then we're thinking in completely different ways.

if i could get a down-the-middle roster that featured Richards/Lecavalier/Marleau/whomever, Jeff Carter, and Mike Richards for the next 5+ years i wouldn't hesitate to look at deals using those two picks in some fashion.



our farm system is in total chaos for a very very simple reason: all the young players are already up with the big club.

sub-25 players who played prominent roles with the Flyers:

Jeff Carter, Mike Richards, RJ Umberger, Ryan Potulny, Stefan Ruzicka, Ben Eager, Scottie Upshall, Joni Pitkanen, Alex Picard, Braydon Coburn...

we were the third youngest team in the league... while it is always nice to have depth in the minors with lots of young players in the system, we don't have a problem with young talent in the cooker... it's just that the cooker is playing in the NHL as opposed to the AHL. some of those players (Potulny and Ruzicka, for example) will probably be with the Phantoms next year... Downie and Parent will most likely start the year with the Phantoms. in another year Nodl will be showing up with the Phantoms most likely...

i don't care if the Phantoms suck in the meantime if it means acquiring a proven player who can help the young talent already in the NHL.
I agree with both your points here, and would be thrilled, beyond any free agent we could sign, if we could somehow swing a deal to get Lecavalier. I wouldn't be too upset giving away any young prospect, or pick, except maybe for Downie. I really want him to be a Flyer.

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04-13-2007, 01:25 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by CarteRichards View Post
I agree with both your points here, and would be thrilled, beyond any free agent we could sign, if we could somehow swing a deal to get Lecavalier. I wouldn't be too upset giving away any young prospect, or pick, except maybe for Downie. I really want him to be a Flyer.
i don't think you'd have to worry about it, because i think players like Giroux, Nodl, and Potulny would be more likely to fit into that type of trade (i.e., players with a bit more offensive upside at this level than i think Downie has).

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04-13-2007, 01:36 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by JLHockeyKnight25 View Post
Those who think that we should trade our 2nd overall pick really haven't been to a Phantoms game. Our farm system is in total chaos right now and we need to rebuild that. Considering that, the players we draft won't be ready for 2-3 years to come to the NHL, so its best to use the picks wisely, and draft some big name young stars for hopes in the future. As for the NHL team, we should rely on having our current young players gain experience, as well as signing some big name free agents (at least 2 would suffice), and a little bit of praying (in hopes that Hatcher and Rathje retire).
AMEN!!! Sorry but they were awful to watch this year. All of our good young talen NOT STILL IN JUNIORS have been scavanged by the Flyers as we have been pretty awful ourselves. There really isn't much left down on the ol' farm.

In an ideal world we would trade Gauthier (salary dump), one of Picard/Jones/Guenin (too many guys filling that 6th-7th dman spot, might as well get something for one of them), and one of Umberger/Ruzicka/Potulny (again, too many players to fill limited roster spots) and maybe improve the Nashville pick or pick up say a 2nd and 3rd (or what ever we could get for them). Then we sign Brier and Timmonen along with a winger for Carter and Upshall. In this we fill our need for a #1 center, the need for a #1 dman, we shed unwanted salary in Gauthier, we trade off soem of our log-jam talent AND we keep both of our 1st rnd picks restocking our furute talent pool.

However, Remember that Gomez is NEVER going to sign here, the Wings just signed Dats, and Buff will resign one of their top 2 centers (most likely Drury). That leaves only 1 legit 1st line center to be bid on by 4 teams. Yes we may have the most money to throw at him but remember, IF we don't get him we are ***** outta luck. I think there is a very real possibility that Homer will offer up a package involving the Nashville pick and some players for Brad Richards. A Richards deal shouldn't have to be too rediculous as the price he's at right now is in no way a bargin for any team and there are very few teams who can afford to take on his salary for TB.We could offer the Nash pick but tell them that they will have to take Gauthier back to return some salary (plus it frees up a defensive roster spot for us to go after that FA dman we plan on getting) and to make it worth their while we could offer them one of the young dmen and one of the young forwards I mentioned above.

This might be the best we could hope for. I think us expecting to land the top 2 FA (the top forward and top dman) is a stretch.

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04-13-2007, 02:52 PM
  #29
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Very unlikely that useless players will get you to move up in the draft. You could trade Umberger but everyone else no one will think it's worth it on the other side if it's Gauthier or Guenin and its not worth trading Ruzicka unless it's a big jump.

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04-13-2007, 03:19 PM
  #30
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OK, let's talk about Brad Richards and a trade.


#1 - You aren't telling Jay Feaster he has to do anything.


#2 - If you're centering this trade off of Nashville's first rounder, quit now.


#3 - They need a goalie, and we don't have one to give them.


#4 - They're not trading Brad Richards.

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04-13-2007, 03:22 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
OK, let's talk about Brad Richards and a trade.


#1 - You aren't telling Jay Feaster he has to do anything.


#2 - If you're centering this trade off of Nashville's first rounder, quit now.


#3 - They need a goalie, and we don't have one to give them.


#4 - They're not trading Brad Richards.
1) i agree.

2) i disagree. a no. 1 with a few of our young players may be a workable trade.

3) they don't have the cap flexibility to PAY for a goalie... thus why...

4) they may not, but a trade of one of the big 3 makes some amount of sense.

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04-13-2007, 03:23 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
OK, let's talk about Brad Richards and a trade.


#1 - You aren't telling Jay Feaster he has to do anything.


#2 - If you're centering this trade off of Nashville's first rounder, quit now.


#3 - They need a goalie, and we don't have one to give them.


#4 - They're not trading Brad Richards.
Incorrect. Offer them Biron as part of the deal!

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04-13-2007, 03:52 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
OK, let's talk about Brad Richards and a trade.


#1 - You aren't telling Jay Feaster he has to do anything.


#2 - If you're centering this trade off of Nashville's first rounder, quit now.


#3 - They need a goalie, and we don't have one to give them.


#4 - They're not trading Brad Richards.
1. Agreed.

2. Agreed. They aren't going to trade one of the best centers in the game for a potential second liner. To get quality you have to get quality, and the Flyers don't have all that much of it when you consider keeping both Carter and Richards. The second overall would almost have to be included.

3. Not an issue. Feaster can always upgrade goaltending with the cap space he'd get in return for trading one of the big three. And it's not like there are many other teams that have two goaltenders who are better than Denis (San Jose, Minnesota, Detroit). Of those teams listed, not one of them have a need for a number one center with a hefty contract.

4. You're probably right, but one can dream.

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04-13-2007, 04:20 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Roger's Pancreas View Post
1. Agreed.

2. Agreed. They aren't going to trade one of the best centers in the game for a potential second liner. To get quality you have to get quality, and the Flyers don't have all that much of it when you consider keeping both Carter and Richards. The second overall would almost have to be included.

3. Not an issue. Feaster can always upgrade goaltending with the cap space he'd get in return for trading one of the big three. And it's not like there are many other teams that have two goaltenders who are better than Denis (San Jose, Minnesota, Detroit). Of those teams listed, not one of them have a need for a number one center with a hefty contract.

4. You're probably right, but one can dream.
Feaster has a few problems:

1) i think he's a horrible trading GM.

2) the list of teams that will be capable of taking Richards into their salary structure isn't a huge group.

3) if he decides to move him, it's pretty clear he's doing so to gain cap flexibility... which shows his hand a bit. you don't trade Brad Richards unless you feel you have to.

personally, i think you can begin to construct a deal around the NSH pick (in the event they go out early and it maybe gets to that 25 range, it would help), a guy like Umberger (you don't get 20 goals by accident, no matter how much people want to ridicule him around here...), someone like Giroux... and so forth.

it's a two-way street, if they want the no. 2 overall... then they won't get as many players with potential.

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04-13-2007, 04:46 PM
  #35
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dont the TB big 3 consist of something like 40% of their payroll? i think the lightning GM realizes that he needs more than just one line. other than those 3 they have very little depth and no money in which to go out and pay for free agents. while you dont HAVE to tell the GM what to do you'd think he'd be smart enough to realize that one of three have to go in order to build depth. so if we do miss out on briere, drury or gomez i still believe a trade would be possible.

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04-13-2007, 04:50 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by shamski7 View Post
so if we do miss out on briere, drury or gomez i still believe a trade would be possible.
Possibly, except Richards has a NTC that kicks in July 1st. So any trade for him would have to occur before free agency begins.

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04-13-2007, 05:06 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger's Pancreas View Post

3. Not an issue. Feaster can always upgrade goaltending with the cap space he'd get in return for trading one of the big three. And it's not like there are many other teams that have two goaltenders who are better than Denis (San Jose, Minnesota, Detroit). Of those teams listed, not one of them have a need for a number one center with a hefty contract.
Other than Giguere, who can he get that would make it worth giving up Brad Richards? Maybe Toskala but he wouldn't have anything left to give up to make it worth it for the Sharks. No one will take Denis just because either.

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04-13-2007, 05:12 PM
  #38
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Perhaps a 3 way trade? I think it makes sense, Flyers trade assets to a team like SJ for one of their Goalies, who goes to Tampa who sends us Richards. Obviously this complicates things a little bit, and it's still way more a fantasy then a reality.

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04-13-2007, 05:21 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
Other than Giguere, who can he get that would make it worth giving up Brad Richards? Maybe Toskala but he wouldn't have anything left to give up to make it worth it for the Sharks. No one will take Denis just because either.
not really the point, i don't think. Feaster has a host of issues... is Vinny a UFA after next season? i think that's what i've read in the past... but i might be wrong. Feaster is going to have a pretty tough time giving Vinny less than Richards outside of calling on Vinny's willingness to help out the team... they have Boyle who should see a nice raise after next year... and still don't have a goalie solution, which will also be expensive.

you could rather easily see a scenario where Richards, Vinny, St. Louis, and Boyle are adding up to ~27M. with no goalie and the rest of the team to sign to a contract.

Feaster screwed up when he signed Richards to that contract... or at least screwed up if he doesn't move someone somewhere. you simply cannot construct a team with only a few players eating up that much of the cap unless you get really lucky with young players.

the smart move in TB is to trade Richards before his NTC kicks in if they definitely want to keep Vinny... get some assets to help out the roster below the top few players and a lot of cap flexibility... then worry about other things.

you're right to identify goalie as a problem, but you're missing the fact that addressing any problems on that team are complicated by a GIANT cap slot taken up by very few players.

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04-13-2007, 05:38 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
Other than Giguere, who can he get that would make it worth giving up Brad Richards? Maybe Toskala but he wouldn't have anything left to give up to make it worth it for the Sharks. No one will take Denis just because either.
You're missing my point. They have a second goaltender who is better than Denis. They are also stacked at center, making it completely unnecessary for San Jose to pursue a trade with Tampa. It's one less team the Flyers would need to compete with, if you think that a starting goaltender is the focal point of the deal. But if you're just talking about improving their goaltending situation, free agency isn't their only route.


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Old
04-14-2007, 09:15 AM
  #41
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AMEN!!! Sorry but they were awful to watch this year. All of our good young talen NOT STILL IN JUNIORS have been scavanged by the Flyers as we have been pretty awful ourselves. There really isn't much left down on the ol' farm.

In an ideal world we would trade Gauthier (salary dump), one of Picard/Jones/Guenin (too many guys filling that 6th-7th dman spot, might as well get something for one of them), and one of Umberger/Ruzicka/Potulny (again, too many players to fill limited roster spots) and maybe improve the Nashville pick or pick up say a 2nd and 3rd (or what ever we could get for them). Then we sign Brier and Timmonen along with a winger for Carter and Upshall. In this we fill our need for a #1 center, the need for a #1 dman, we shed unwanted salary in Gauthier, we trade off soem of our log-jam talent AND we keep both of our 1st rnd picks restocking our furute talent pool.

However, Remember that Gomez is NEVER going to sign here, the Wings just signed Dats, and Buff will resign one of their top 2 centers (most likely Drury). That leaves only 1 legit 1st line center to be bid on by 4 teams. Yes we may have the most money to throw at him but remember, IF we don't get him we are ***** outta luck. I think there is a very real possibility that Homer will offer up a package involving the Nashville pick and some players for Brad Richards. A Richards deal shouldn't have to be too rediculous as the price he's at right now is in no way a bargin for any team and there are very few teams who can afford to take on his salary for TB.We could offer the Nash pick but tell them that they will have to take Gauthier back to return some salary (plus it frees up a defensive roster spot for us to go after that FA dman we plan on getting) and to make it worth their while we could offer them one of the young dmen and one of the young forwards I mentioned above.

This might be the best we could hope for. I think us expecting to land the top 2 FA (the top forward and top dman) is a stretch.
A few things:

1. The one Phantoms game I went to was so god awful I wanted to leave early, and I NEVER wanna leave early. That should be a sign.

2. Thank you for saying Gomez will never sign with us. I'm up at Rutgers, and watching Devils/Rangers games and knowing how they work, I see a lot of people on this board saying we're going to sign Gomez and I think most people, like I've said many times, underestimate the loyalty to Lou.

3. Though I agree with you on most of this, and the strategy you present is really indepth and would be great, I don't think there's a chance we'll get Richards....ever. Even though announcers sometimes call Mike Richards Brad Richards, I think that's the closest we'll get :-D

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04-14-2007, 09:59 AM
  #42
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Originally Posted by JLHockeyKnight25 View Post
A few things:

1. The one Phantoms game I went to was so god awful I wanted to leave early, and I NEVER wanna leave early. That should be a sign.

2. Thank you for saying Gomez will never sign with us. I'm up at Rutgers, and watching Devils/Rangers games and knowing how they work, I see a lot of people on this board saying we're going to sign Gomez and I think most people, like I've said many times, underestimate the loyalty to Lou.

3. Though I agree with you on most of this, and the strategy you present is really indepth and would be great, I don't think there's a chance we'll get Richards....ever. Even though announcers sometimes call Mike Richards Brad Richards, I think that's the closest we'll get :-D
i think Gomez is gone... but i think he's going out to the west coast, so it really doesn't matter.

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04-14-2007, 10:55 AM
  #43
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[QUOTE=Jester;8918187]i think Gomez is gone... but i think he's going out to the west coast, so it really doesn't matter.

ok can you give us a clue as to the west coast suiter.

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04-14-2007, 11:04 AM
  #44
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ok can you give us a clue as to the west coast suiter.
if i'm Calgary i may think about it... maybe Vancouver (don't know what their cap situation is)... LA?

there are options... i just think he's going to head closer to home (Alaska). he went home and played there during the lockout, so he clearly hasn't given up his roots.

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04-14-2007, 11:24 AM
  #45
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I wonder if Flyers can draft Sutter with Nash pick..

I think he is a similar player to Carter with out speed? Anyone has any info on him?

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04-14-2007, 03:08 PM
  #46
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I wonder if Flyers can draft Sutter with Nash pick..

I think he is a similar player to Carter with out speed? Anyone has any info on him?
He'll be long gone by the time Nashville's pick comes around.

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04-14-2007, 07:40 PM
  #47
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Incorrect. Offer them Biron as part of the deal!
Why couldnt we offer Nitty as part of the deal??

Personally, I rather have Richards than Marleau or Vinny.

What about Nitty, #2, Umberger, Potulny for Richards and a throw in pick or player? Something along those lines. Maybe a dman in place of either potulny or umberger

lines of the future

Gagne Richards Nodl
Upshall Carter Giroux
Eager Richards Downie

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04-14-2007, 07:56 PM
  #48
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Personally, I rather have Richards than Vinny.

Please tell me you are joking.

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04-14-2007, 10:56 PM
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Please tell me you are joking.
No, I am not joking. Playoff MVP, leader, top playmaker with many more consistent years in the NHL who fits like a glove on the top line we have vs. someone who may have the better physical tools, but has only put it together for one year so far. How is that a joke?? I judge players over a career, not one season. Now Vinny may continue to be dominant, we dont know that, but judging over their careers at this point, and with the needs we have, I take Richards.

Vinny - 402 points in 547 career games .735
Richards - 438 points in 490 games .894

Then add in the intangibles.

You act like I am taking a 3rd line center vs. a top line center. They are both top line NHL centers, I have picked my preference.

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04-14-2007, 11:35 PM
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No, I am not joking. Playoff MVP, leader, top playmaker with many more consistent years in the NHL who fits like a glove on the top line we have vs. someone who may have the better physical tools, but has only put it together for one year so far. How is that a joke?? I judge players over a career, not one season. Now Vinny may continue to be dominant, we dont know that, but judging over their careers at this point, and with the needs we have, I take Richards.

Vinny - 402 points in 547 career games .735
Richards - 438 points in 490 games .894

Then add in the intangibles.

You act like I am taking a 3rd line center vs. a top line center. They are both top line NHL centers, I have picked my preference.
Watch them play.

Vinny Lecavalier is an absolutely gifted hockey player. There are 3-4 players on his par in the entire league.

Minus the Conn Smythe ( vinny has good playoff numbers too), you can find 20-30 Brad Richards in the league.

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