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Old
04-13-2007, 09:59 AM
  #1
Hugh Madbrough
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Hey Refs

This is for the Ref's out there - tell me if this was a blown call or not.

My team was shorthanded and we had a delayed penalty coming, the other team scored. Shouldn't the goal wipe out the delayed penalty? The ref's said that the goal counts as a PP goal and our guy would come out of the box (but the delayed penalty counts).

I used to ref myself and I swear they are wrong on this. USA Hockey rules.

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04-13-2007, 10:55 AM
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technophile
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JM47 View Post
This is for the Ref's out there - tell me if this was a blown call or not.

My team was shorthanded and we had a delayed penalty coming, the other team scored. Shouldn't the goal wipe out the delayed penalty? The ref's said that the goal counts as a PP goal and our guy would come out of the box (but the delayed penalty counts).

I used to ref myself and I swear they are wrong on this. USA Hockey rules.
The call was correct.

From the USAH Rulebook/Casebook, page 87, (d):
Quote:
If the Referee signals an additional minor penalty(s) against a team that is already shorthanded (below the numerical strength of its opponent on the ice at the time of the goal) because of one or more minor or bench minor penalties, and a goal is scored by the nonoffending team before the whistle is blown, the goal shall be allowed, the delayed penalty(s) shall be assessed and the first noncoincident minor penalty already being served shall terminate automatically under Rule 402(c) (Minor Penalties).

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04-13-2007, 11:07 AM
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Danrik
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Good call.

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04-13-2007, 11:28 AM
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Hugh Madbrough
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I stand corrected, thanks.

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04-13-2007, 03:28 PM
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EazyB97
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That's correct, but what happens if it is the reverse.

My team's short handed, the team on the PP has a delayed penalty, and we score SH. Why is the delayed penalty wiped out?

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04-13-2007, 03:55 PM
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Because they didn't have somebody in the box.
If you score SH your buddy doesn't get out of the box does he
Btw. the rule was institued during the Canadians supremacy in the NHL as they would regularly score more than one goal on the powerplay removing all suspense from he game.

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Old
04-14-2007, 02:52 AM
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FLYLine24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JM47 View Post
This is for the Ref's out there - tell me if this was a blown call or not.

My team was shorthanded and we had a delayed penalty coming, the other team scored. Shouldn't the goal wipe out the delayed penalty? The ref's said that the goal counts as a PP goal and our guy would come out of the box (but the delayed penalty counts).

I used to ref myself and I swear they are wrong on this. USA Hockey rules.
Nope....as a USA Hockey ref that was the right call by the Refs.

-edit, i guess I just further confirmed it..didnt read the other posts.

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Old
04-16-2007, 07:02 AM
  #8
Gino 14
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Remember, the penalty with the least amount of time left is always the one to be released (unless it's a major penalty). Since the guy in the box was obviously there before the penalty, he had the least amount of time to serve, so he's the one to get released.

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Old
04-16-2007, 05:22 PM
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EazyB97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nbr-17 View Post
Because they didn't have somebody in the box.
If you score SH your buddy doesn't get out of the box does he
Btw. the rule was institued during the Canadians supremacy in the NHL as they would regularly score more than one goal on the powerplay removing all suspense from he game.
If that's the case, why isn't a penalty still given if you score on a delayed penalty when your 5on5? You essentially start the PP once the refs hand goes up. I don't see why it's any different because you are actually playing short handed.

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04-16-2007, 06:09 PM
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MikeD
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The difference is that once the team is short handed by one what is to inhibit illegal actions? Its a bit of a deterent. The PP has been ongoing based on a previous penalty in the short handed situation.

In the even strength situation it is a matter of a legal goalie substitution for a defensive or offensive player. There are many subtle differences to the two situations that make the need for these differences in handling important to the integrity of the game.

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04-16-2007, 06:28 PM
  #11
BackGroundMusic
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Interesting. I never really thought about that chain of events.

I thought this thread was just going to have this picture:


Last edited by BackGroundMusic: 07-12-2007 at 06:18 PM.
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Old
04-16-2007, 06:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EazyB97 View Post
If that's the case, why isn't a penalty still given if you score on a delayed penalty when your 5on5? You essentially start the PP once the refs hand goes up. I don't see why it's any different because you are actually playing short handed.


Under no Circumstance does your guy get out of the box when you score.

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04-16-2007, 07:01 PM
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EazyB97
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Originally Posted by Bob Cole View Post
Under no Circumstance does your guy get out of the box when you score.
I'm not asking for mine to be released, I'm asking for the delayed call to be called still since it's realistically an even scenario, like scoring 4on4.

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04-16-2007, 11:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EazyB97 View Post
If that's the case, why isn't a penalty still given if you score on a delayed penalty when your 5on5? You essentially start the PP once the refs hand goes up. I don't see why it's any different because you are actually playing short handed.
Because the "shortest penalty" is the one the ref is about to call; you don't have a guy in the box.

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04-17-2007, 01:06 AM
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EazyB97
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You are mistaking my post and the first one. I asked another situation.

Say my team is short handed (we have a man in the box), while we have the puck, one of our guys is hooked and a delayed penalty is coming for the other team. My team, while SH, goes down and scores. Why isn't the delayed penalty still called. It's essentially a 4on4 goal.

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04-17-2007, 02:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EazyB97 View Post
You are mistaking my post and the first one. I asked another situation.

Say my team is short handed (we have a man in the box), while we have the puck, one of our guys is hooked and a delayed penalty is coming for the other team. My team, while SH, goes down and scores. Why isn't the delayed penalty still called. It's essentially a 4on4 goal.
Because you aren't including goalies in your total number of players. You are right that it is essentially a 4on4 goal, but technically it is 5on4

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04-17-2007, 10:01 AM
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technophile
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EazyB97 View Post
You are mistaking my post and the first one. I asked another situation.

Say my team is short handed (we have a man in the box), while we have the puck, one of our guys is hooked and a delayed penalty is coming for the other team. My team, while SH, goes down and scores. Why isn't the delayed penalty still called. It's essentially a 4on4 goal.
I did answer your question.

Your goal eliminates the penalty against the other team with the shortest remaining time. Since they don't have a man in the box, the penalty with the shortest remaining time is the one about to be called, so it's wiped out.

Whether you're shorthanded or not--how many players you have on the ice--is entirely irrelevant to whether a goal wipes out a minor penalty or not.

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Old
04-17-2007, 10:48 AM
  #18
WhipNash27
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If you have a man in the box, you score a goal. The guy leaves the box, right?

Well, if you have a man in the box and the shorthanded team takes a penalty and the team with the man advantage scores a goal then what would normally happen? The man in the box would get out of the box. However, you have another penalty being called. Therefore that means that since the one man in the box is leaving the guy who just took a penalty goes in the box.

Otherwise by scoring the goal you'd be taking two men out of the box. It would be like if you had a 5 on 3 and your team scores a goal and both men get out of the box.

Therefore, when a team is shorthanded and the team on the powerplay takes the penalty, since there is no one in the penalty box to have their penalty eliminated then a goal scored means that the penalty is whiped out since your team has the opportunity to have the extra man on the ice due to having a pulled goalie without the risk of a goal against.

Just like on 5 on 5 it's the same idea.

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04-17-2007, 02:47 PM
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EazyB97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by technophile View Post
I did answer your question.

Your goal eliminates the penalty against the other team with the shortest remaining time. Since they don't have a man in the box, the penalty with the shortest remaining time is the one about to be called, so it's wiped out.

Whether you're shorthanded or not--how many players you have on the ice--is entirely irrelevant to whether a goal wipes out a minor penalty or not.
If it's a 4 on 4 situation, the players penalty is not wiped out. So it doesn't make sense why this one is, since it's essentially the same situation.

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Old
04-17-2007, 03:21 PM
  #20
Danrik
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If it's 4 on 4 noone has any advantage, so noone comes out. I don't really see what is so hard about this.

Whenever there is a power play and another delayed penalty coming the man with the least time gets a free pass.

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04-17-2007, 04:11 PM
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technophile
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EazyB97 View Post
If it's a 4 on 4 situation, the players penalty is not wiped out. So it doesn't make sense why this one is, since it's essentially the same situation.
I see; I didn't quite understand what you were asking (and I was wrong anyway :p).

From the USAH 2005-2007 Rulebook/Casebook, page 90:

Quote:
Is there a general rule of thumb for determining which penalty, if any, expires as the result of a goal scored by the opposing team?
Yes. There are many situations where a minor penalty terminates as the result of a goal scored against a team that is below the numerical strength of its opponent. Rule Reference 402(c).
When a goal is scored, ask yourself (considering only the penalties then in effect, and properly displayed on the clock):
1. Is the team that was scored upon below the on-ice numerical strength of the opponents? If NO, take no action.
2. If YES, Is there at least 1 non-coincident minor or bench minor penalty being served by the team that was scored upon? If NO, take no action.
3. If YES, Terminate the minor or bench minor penalty with the least time remaining on the clock.
Since the answer to #1 is NO for your example, no penalties are wiped out and play continues 4-on-4.

There's a lot of great examples in the casebook; it's worth a read for players as well as refs.

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