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Best Raw Talent since 1970...(Top-10)

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Old
04-14-2007, 11:58 AM
  #51
le_sean
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Originally Posted by brownman View Post
The one that got 72 assists in his last season?
Actually 53 assists (plus 9 goals) in 70 games in his last season. 72 assists was in 1996-97.

Still a very good player at that age, especially on a pretty weak Rangers team.

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Old
04-14-2007, 12:01 PM
  #52
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I simply don't understand why having the greatest hockey sense of all time isn't a "raw talent". If it made you own the sports record book, I'd say it's a talent.

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Old
04-14-2007, 12:09 PM
  #53
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Can't comment on the 70's since I wasn't born yet... but here my more current list...

Gretzky
Mario
Bure
Mogliny
Jagr
Yzerman
Sakic
Messier
Coffee
Bourque

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Old
04-14-2007, 12:15 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Fido22 View Post
I simply don't understand why having the greatest hockey sense of all time isn't a "raw talent". If it made you own the sports record book, I'd say it's a talent.

Well; because when you speak of "raw talent" you're normally talking about physical abilities, at least that's what I figure.

When you speak of "best player" - you're damn right you include hockey sense - but the original poster is, I believe, looking for the players with the best physical tools; the best skater/stickhandler/shooter package .

Gretzky himself would admit that he's not the most natural athlete there ever was (even though he was physically talented); but through hard work and smarts he achieved stats that no one else has touched.

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Old
04-14-2007, 12:24 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by le_sean View Post
Actually 53 assists (plus 9 goals) in 70 games in his last season. 72 assists was in 1996-97.

Still a very good player at that age, especially on a pretty weak Rangers team.
Funny how I remembered some oddball stat from 1997 lol and thought it was from '99. In any event, yeah 53 assists is pretty ****in' good playing with Nik Sundstrom

And how can anyone really say Gretzky never had the skills of a guy like LaFleur or whatever? Do a lot of people really just think it was a result of hockey sense that the sea seemed to part for him when he made a pass or deked around 5 guys?

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Old
04-14-2007, 12:30 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by kost46! View Post
Okay heres my list. Since 1980 though.. I'll try to do forwards only.

1- Mario Lemieux- There is no question about it, he's number 1.
2- Jaromir Jagr
3- Pavel Bure- holy moly could this guy fly
4- Peter Forsberg- amazing at everything really.
5- Kent Nillson- If you watched in the 80-s you would know.
6- Denis Savard- Who could forget those spinoramas?
7- Alex Kovalev- He's gotta be in there somewhere.
8- Sergei Fedorov- Same as Kovalev.
9- Alex Ovechkin/Ilya Kovalchuk- remind me a lot of each other
10- Pavel Datsyuk

I dont really consider guys like 99, 87, Lindros, Sakic, Yzerman, Bossy as pure talents. There more reliant on vision/goal scoring instincts or in Lindros's case phisicality.
Huh? The best player in history isn't good enough "talent wise" to make it to your list? What a joke.

Gretzky's visions wasn't a skill? Then what was it? The guy could score in bunches too btw, he wasn't just a passer, look at his stats.

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Old
04-14-2007, 12:32 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Pascal View Post
The guy could score in bunches too btw, he wasn't just a passer, look at his stats.
Reminds me of the story of how parents used to yell "puckhog!" at him in minor hockey because he had like 120 goals. Apparently they didn't notice that he had like 300 assists too, in ONE SEASON for ****'s sake

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Old
04-14-2007, 12:40 PM
  #58
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Yea, obviously someone who can do "spinoramas" is much better than a guy who re-wrote the records book. Ah well, lists are always a bad idea because no one can agree on one.

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04-14-2007, 01:02 PM
  #59
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if your talking god given talent then here is my list
gretzky is not on the list because he has the hockeysense/vision

1.Bobby Orr -had the sense and talent just an amazing player.
2.J.Jagr-when he wants to play.
3.S.Federov-same as jagr.
4.P.Klima-garbage pail helmet but when he wanted to play was absolutly amazing to watch.
5.A.Ovechkin-get this kid someone to play with.
6.M.Lemieux-Could stick handle in a phone booth.
7.V.Ruzicka-amazing talent with oates and neely cut short due to injury, also Jagr's favorite player.
8.A.Kovalev-Takes ALOT of nights off great talent thou.
9.D.savard-Spinorama enough said
10.P.Bure-Rocket shot blazing speed cut short to injury.

Top goalie
Tie between Roy and Tretiak

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Old
04-14-2007, 01:02 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Fido22 View Post
I simply don't understand why having the greatest hockey sense of all time isn't a "raw talent". If it made you own the sports record book, I'd say it's a talent.
Raw talent is PHISICAL talent. Is hockey sense/ smarts phisical? Nope.. case closed.

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Old
04-14-2007, 01:26 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by kost46! View Post
Raw talent is PHISICAL talent. Is hockey sense/ smarts phisical? Nope.. case closed.
People are, believe it or not, allowed to have a different viewpoint than yourself. I would argue that a kid who shattered scoring records as a pre-teen and kept it up into his 30s had RAW mental talent... a certified prodigy.

Unless you think Walter Gretzky honed his son's mental approach to the game while Wayne was still in diapers.

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Old
04-14-2007, 01:36 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Montrealer View Post
People are, believe it or not, allowed to have a different viewpoint than yourself. I would argue that a kid who shattered scoring records as a pre-teen and kept it up into his 30s had RAW mental talent... a certified prodigy.

Unless you think Walter Gretzky honed his son's mental approach to the game while Wayne was still in diapers.
Any way you look at it, the truest measure of talent is how often you get the puck into the net or set up someone else to do the same. That would be the most definitive measure,I think. You can't simply choose which aspects you want to use to define raw talent, to suit your arguement, well actually you can, but it's meaningless though.

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Old
04-14-2007, 01:50 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by kost46! View Post
Okay heres my list. Since 1980 though.. I'll try to do forwards only.

1- Mario Lemieux- There is no question about it, he's number 1.
2- Jaromir Jagr
3- Pavel Bure- holy moly could this guy fly
4- Peter Forsberg- amazing at everything really.
5- Kent Nillson- If you watched in the 80-s you would know.
6- Denis Savard- Who could forget those spinoramas?
7- Alex Kovalev- He's gotta be in there somewhere.
8- Sergei Fedorov- Same as Kovalev.
9- Alex Ovechkin/Ilya Kovalchuk- remind me a lot of each other
10- Pavel Datsyuk

I dont really consider guys like 99, 87, Lindros, Sakic, Yzerman, Bossy as pure talents. There more reliant on vision/goal scoring instincts or in Lindros's case phisicality.


Quote:
Originally Posted by kost46! View Post
Raw talent is PHISICAL talent. Is hockey sense/ smarts phisical? Nope.. case closed.
It's obvious that just by reading your above two contradictory quotes that you don't even know how you personally define "raw talent".

Seriously, whoever doesn't include Gretzky at LEAST in the top 5 should move on to some other sport...try curling.

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Old
04-14-2007, 01:56 PM
  #64
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Raw talent is physical talent? What does that even mean? How the heck do you seperate it? Is this just a list of the best puck handlers? Who cares how well a player can dipsy-doodle, sure helps Kovalev and Samsonov, hey?

Anyway, here's my list of the most talented players since the 70's, in my opinion:

1. Gretzky
2. Orr
3. Lemiuex
4. Sakic
5. Crosby
6. Dionne
7. Jagr
8. Lafleur
9. Coffey
10. Forsberg

Ovechkin and Messier just miss the list.

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Old
04-14-2007, 02:01 PM
  #65
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how is "hockey sense" and "vision" not part of "talent"?

I really hope to get some answers on this one...

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04-14-2007, 02:21 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by HabuseMoi View Post
how is "hockey sense" and "vision" not part of "talent"?

I really hope to get some answers on this one...
Hockey sense and vision are not natural talent. Its hard to explain really. Wayne himself said he learned it all he didnt think he was born like that. Gretz was great cuz he learned how to anticipate. Perephial vision... This thread is about raw talent. Raw talent is natural talent. Thats all.

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04-14-2007, 02:27 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by HABit View Post
It's obvious that just by reading your above two contradictory quotes that you don't even know how you personally define "raw talent".

Seriously, whoever doesn't include Gretzky at LEAST in the top 5 should move on to some other sport...try curling.
**** you you ****in *****. This isnt asking about the TOP 10 PLAYERS OF ALL TIME. Its asking the top 10 RAW talents of all time. NATURAL TALENTS. Gretzky isnt in my top 10. What the **** is your problem? You're not gonna convince me that Gretz was more naturally gifted then Mario, Bure, Jagr, etc. Not a chance in hell.

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Old
04-14-2007, 02:28 PM
  #68
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Turnbuckle understands.

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Old
04-14-2007, 02:29 PM
  #69
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1. Gretzky - Best player in hockey history...enough said.
2. Orr - Changed the way that Defense was played, made the game look easy.
3. Lemieux - Most talented big man ever, injuries/health keep him from being #1
4. Sakic - In his late 30's and still putting up great numbers.
5. Dionne - One of the most underappreciated players in the history of the NHL
6. Kharlamov - Best international player I've ever seen, he could do things that others only dreamed about.
7. Jagr - Could be the most talented person on the list, if he wanted to be.
8. Crosby -Has displayed talent well beyond his years, look forward to watching him get better and better.
9. Lafleur - My personal favorite, in his prime was the most exciting player IMO
10. Forsberg - Even with all of his injuries, his talent level is simply amazing

HM:Messier, Ovechkin, Yzerman, P.Bure, M.Modano, Lafontaine

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Old
04-14-2007, 02:40 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by kost46! View Post
Hockey sense and vision are not natural talent. Its hard to explain really. Wayne himself said he learned it all he didnt think he was born like that. Gretz was great cuz he learned how to anticipate. Perephial vision... This thread is about raw talent. Raw talent is natural talent. Thats all.
You can't "learn" hockey sense or how to pass, IMO

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Old
04-14-2007, 02:41 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by HabuseMoi View Post
how is "hockey sense" and "vision" not part of "talent"?

I really hope to get some answers on this one...
Sigh. It's not if you don't want it to be. Raw talent can mean strippers if you like...fill yer boots.

when someone says 'best hockey sense"...how come terrfiic sktickhandling can't be part of your vision? If you're a great skater you probably have good vision

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04-14-2007, 02:45 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by kost46! View Post
**** you you ****in *****. This isnt asking about the TOP 10 PLAYERS OF ALL TIME. Its asking the top 10 RAW talents of all time. NATURAL TALENTS. Gretzky isnt in my top 10. What the **** is your problem? You're not gonna convince me that Gretz was more naturally gifted then Mario, Bure, Jagr, etc. Not a chance in hell.
Hit a nerve did I?

Guess I was right...

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Old
04-14-2007, 02:53 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by kost46! View Post
Turnbuckle understands.
Sorry but even Turnbuckle isn't completely with you on this one based on his previous post.

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Sigh. It's not if you don't want it to be. Raw talent can mean strippers if you like...fill yer boots.

when someone says 'best hockey sense"...how come terrfiic sktickhandling can't be part of your vision? If you're a great skater you probably have good vision

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Old
04-14-2007, 02:55 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by brownman View Post
You can't "learn" hockey sense or how to pass, IMO
You can't learn how to pass?

Where were u when we practised those passing drills growing up; should have had u there to explain to coach how useless it was...

I really don't understand why this is so difficult for soem of you - raw talent refers to the ability to do things on the ice by yourself - to be able to go end to end with the puck etc.

Booby Hull had better much better raw talent than Stan Mikita for instance - yet Mikita was considered to be one of the smartest players of all time. Doesn't mean he didn't have talent, and doesn't mean having smarts isn't talent; just not "raw talent."

The question wasn't "Who's the greatest player since 1970" - if it was... you put Gretz right at the top because of his tremendous smarts, vision, anticipation, production and work ethic.

The original poster was not asking for overall talent...he's asking for raw talent...physical skills.

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Old
04-14-2007, 02:59 PM
  #75
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You can't learn how to pass?
I should have clarified, I meant to say no-look passes, seeing-eye passes kind if thing. You can't learn how to know the far D-man is going in the backdoor all the while you're looking down-low.

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