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Gauthier the forgotten scapegoat

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Old
04-13-2007, 08:54 PM
  #1
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Gauthier the forgotten scapegoat

The Ghost fittingly seems to pretty much escape scrutiny both here and in the media. He's been our pro scout for quite a spell...

We skip on the likes of Dumont, Laperriere, Gelinas to go after Samsonov. We acquire players like Vandermeer, Downey and Ivanans to fill an enforcer role; we trade Murray for Hossa, who having been given enough time and guidance is actually developing into an all around NHLer as much as I hate to admit it, Hainsey and Beauchemin were given up on for nothing, all we can acquire for Dallas' subsequent leading scorer is an overpaid, over-the-hill defenceman in Niinimaa ....

Gainey isn't without blame of course but many of those decisions involved the input of Gauthier obviously, he being the top pro scout in the organization. I'm not so sure he's got the best eye for talent.

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04-13-2007, 09:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turnbuckle View Post
The Ghost fittingly seems to pretty much escape scrutiny both here and in the media. He's been our pro scout for quite a spell...

We skip on the likes of Dumont, Laperriere, Gelinas to go after Samsonov. We acquire players like Vandermeer, Downey and Ivanans to fill an enforcer role; we trade Murray for Hossa, who having been given enough time and guidance is actually developing into an all around NHLer as much as I hate to admit it, Hainsey and Beauchemin were given up on for nothing, all we can acquire for Dallas' subsequent leading scorer is an overpaid, over-the-hill defenceman in Niinimaa ....

Gainey isn't without blame of course but many of those decisions involved the input of Gauthier obviously, he being the top pro scout in the organization. I'm not so sure he's got the best eye for talent.
Who knows and who cares ? Too late now !

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04-13-2007, 09:22 PM
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Very good point Turnbuckle.

I always felt Gauthier was not as great a hockey man as people think. I know that Ottawa got better once he became their GM but the main reason for that happening was because of their amater drafting in my opinion.

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04-13-2007, 09:28 PM
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Very good point Turnbuckle.

I always felt Gauthier was not as great a hockey man as people think. I know that Ottawa got better once he became their GM but the main reason for that happening was because of their amater drafting in my opinion.
i agree that proscouting is as much important as amateur. timmis has proven to be the man but gauthier?

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04-13-2007, 09:32 PM
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Ross MacLochness
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Totally agree on Gauthier. I've never liked this guy and don't ever want him to be our GM *IF* Gainey were to step down or be fired.

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04-13-2007, 09:36 PM
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I always felt Gauthier was not as great a hockey man as people think. I know that Ottawa got better once he became their GM but the main reason for that happening was because of their amater drafting in my opinion.
Ottawa got better immediately because of Jacques Martin's defensive system. However, Gauthier improved our goaltending and upgraded a team full of 4th liners to a team full of 3rd liners. He also traded away Demitra for nothing and traded Straka and Dan Quinn at a time when our team couldn't score either.

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Old
04-13-2007, 09:39 PM
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Originally Posted by turnbuckle View Post
The Ghost fittingly seems to pretty much escape scrutiny both here and in the media. He's been our pro scout for quite a spell...

We skip on the likes of Dumont, Laperriere, Gelinas to go after Samsonov. We acquire players like Vandermeer, Downey and Ivanans to fill an enforcer role; we trade Murray for Hossa, who having been given enough time and guidance is actually developing into an all around NHLer as much as I hate to admit it, Hainsey and Beauchemin were given up on for nothing, all we can acquire for Dallas' subsequent leading scorer is an overpaid, over-the-hill defenceman in Niinimaa ....

Gainey isn't without blame of course but many of those decisions involved the input of Gauthier obviously, he being the top pro scout in the organization. I'm not so sure he's got the best eye for talent.
wow !

Dumont has been free agent after the sign of Samsonov ( Buffalo decide to let him go , after the arbitory meeting )

Laperriere ? source to say that they didn't try , and with Lapierre ready , at a cheapest price , why do they needed to sign him ?

Murray was good last season , not this year . But Hossa was the same kind of smooth player we were already having last season , so it wasn't a bad trade . We needed to be more gritty

Beauchemin ? nothing to do with the " pro-scout " .Same for Hainsey .

And to finish , are you saying that the trade with Dallas was the result of Pierre scouting ?

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04-13-2007, 09:41 PM
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How do we know who said what before these decisions were taken? Gainey is the one making the final decisions and therefore he's the one who has to take the responsibility of the consequences of his decisions. If Gauthier isn't doing a good job Gainey could just fire him, but he hasn't.

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04-13-2007, 09:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turnbuckle View Post
The Ghost fittingly seems to pretty much escape scrutiny both here and in the media. He's been our pro scout for quite a spell...

We skip on the likes of Dumont, Laperriere, Gelinas to go after Samsonov. We acquire players like Vandermeer, Downey and Ivanans to fill an enforcer role; we trade Murray for Hossa, who having been given enough time and guidance is actually developing into an all around NHLer as much as I hate to admit it, Hainsey and Beauchemin were given up on for nothing, all we can acquire for Dallas' subsequent leading scorer is an overpaid, over-the-hill defenceman in Niinimaa ....

Gainey isn't without blame of course but many of those decisions involved the input of Gauthier obviously, he being the top pro scout in the organization. I'm not so sure he's got the best eye for talent.
A lot of this isn't fair. We signed Samsonov before Dumont was available and we were almost out of cap space when Dumont was available. Also, who would have thought Samsonov would have been so bad? Also, he was one of our top even strength point getters despite being a healthy scratch for so many games. He was a key player for Edmonton's run to the Stanley Cup Finals just a few months before he played his first game as a Hab. We didn't give up anything for those enforcers you mentioned. Anaheim gave up a 2nd rounder to get Parros. Hainsey has a horrible attitude and look at how terrible Columbus are. Also, you don't mention the acquisition of Huet. As I said, not fair.


Last edited by Schooner Guy: 04-13-2007 at 09:57 PM. Reason: add more
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Old
04-13-2007, 09:58 PM
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while we're at it

why not blame the zambonni driver.....or that lady who bake muffin at the cafeteria.....or the guy who's in charge of the parking outside..

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04-13-2007, 10:06 PM
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God, I would be so happy if Hab fans would stop overrating Beauchemin and Hainsey just because we let them go for nothing. They're not that good!

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04-13-2007, 10:06 PM
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Who's to say I'm laying all the blame on him? No one should lay the "blame" on any one person.

As for it's relevance.... the Habs failed to win a Stanley Cup; there are reasons why it didn't happen. While everyone lays the "blame" on Carbo, Gainey, Koivu, etc., I am merely pointing out that Gauthier should also be held accountable. When a GM makes a move for an established NHLer he bends the ear of his top pro scout; and Gauthier's been that man. I've never been overly sold on him to be truthful; I thought he did a pretty lousy job in Anaheim, and a mediocre job in Ottawa. The mediocrity continues....

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04-13-2007, 10:19 PM
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Originally Posted by milou View Post
wow !

Dumont has been free agent after the sign of Samsonov ( Buffalo decide to let him go , after the arbitory meeting )

Laperriere ? source to say that they didn't try , and with Lapierre ready , at a cheapest price , why do they needed to sign him ?
Why didn't they try and sign him? That's my point. You actually thought we had enough grit and effort this season? WE obviously disagree on that.

Murray was good last season , not this year . But Hossa was the same kind of smooth player we were already having last season , so it wasn't a bad trade . We needed to be more gritty

And Laperriere wouldn't make us grittier? you are already contradicting yourself. Murray's never won a fight in his life, Downey hasn't won a fight in three years, same with Vandermeer; Ivnanans fought once and never played for the Habs again. Pierre the pipsqueak wouldn't know an NHL fighter if he punched him in the face.

Beauchemin ? nothing to do with the " pro-scout " .Same for Hainsey .

HUH? Sure it does. When he's the one who recommends player to replace them it is. Streit, Bouillon, Dandenault...are any of them playing better than Beauchemin? Obviously the Hainsey, Beauchemin departures aren't directly Gauthier's doing, but he shouldn't escape any scrutiny on it either.

And to finish , are you saying that the trade with Dallas was the result of Pierre scouting ?
I don't recall saying Pierre made that trade. However - the GM asks his pro scout about the player he is getting in return,. It's not Bob's job to be flying to other NHL rinks and evaluate players on other teams; that's the Ghost's job. If Gauthier had told Bob what every Dallas and Islanders fan was telling us after the trade, Niinimaa has lost what he once had, and he came at a very hefty price tag that hindered our salary cap. It became obvious as the season wore on. That's the best we could get for a 50-60-point scorer?

As I said in my original post - I'm not blaming Gauthier for trades Bob made, but I don't think he should avoid scrutiny either.

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04-13-2007, 10:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turnbuckle View Post
The Ghost fittingly seems to pretty much escape scrutiny both here and in the media. He's been our pro scout for quite a spell...

We skip on the likes of Dumont, Laperriere, Gelinas to go after Samsonov. We acquire players like Vandermeer, Downey and Ivanans to fill an enforcer role; we trade Murray for Hossa, who having been given enough time and guidance is actually developing into an all around NHLer as much as I hate to admit it, Hainsey and Beauchemin were given up on for nothing, all we can acquire for Dallas' subsequent leading scorer is an overpaid, over-the-hill defenceman in Niinimaa ....

Gainey isn't without blame of course but many of those decisions involved the input of Gauthier obviously, he being the top pro scout in the organization. I'm not so sure he's got the best eye for talent.
I'm not sure what Gauthier's advice was on these decisions. But if he's incompetent, it's Gainey's responsibility to fire him. I'm sure he's aware of Gauthier's performance. Especially considering they're directly one over the other in the organizational chart. The buck stops with Gainey for hockey operations. One of the cardinal rules of management, hire people smarter than you...

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04-13-2007, 10:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turnbuckle View Post
The Ghost fittingly seems to pretty much escape scrutiny both here and in the media. He's been our pro scout for quite a spell...

We skip on the likes of Dumont, Laperriere, Gelinas to go after Samsonov. We acquire players like Vandermeer, Downey and Ivanans to fill an enforcer role; we trade Murray for Hossa, who having been given enough time and guidance is actually developing into an all around NHLer as much as I hate to admit it, Hainsey and Beauchemin were given up on for nothing, all we can acquire for Dallas' subsequent leading scorer is an overpaid, over-the-hill defenceman in Niinimaa ....

Gainey isn't without blame of course but many of those decisions involved the input of Gauthier obviously, he being the top pro scout in the organization. I'm not so sure he's got the best eye for talent.
Why do we always see Dumont in those kind of threads??? Dumont only became available after we had signed all our players and he won in arbitration.

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04-13-2007, 10:25 PM
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I know who I'd like as our GM. Trevor Timmins. He's a very smart guy, he's one of the best talent evaluator in the game, he has a good plan for developping players, he has a scientific background on exercice and sports, he has a MBA and a masters in sports administration. He would be a tremendous GM imo. In fact, I would give him the spot right away if I were Gillet or Boivin.

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04-13-2007, 10:25 PM
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What does these bad moves have to do with Pierre Gauthier...? The word going around and why A. Savard left is that apparantly Bob doesn't listen to anybody but himself. It seems to me like that's the other way around to what turnbuckle was saying and Bob doesn't listen enough to his guys.

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04-13-2007, 10:32 PM
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Originally Posted by turnbuckle View Post
I don't recall saying Pierre made that trade. However - the GM asks his pro scout about the player he is getting in return,. It's not Bob's job to be flying to other NHL rinks and evaluate players on other teams; that's the Ghost's job. If Gauthier had told Bob what every Dallas and Islanders fan was telling us after the trade, Niinimaa has lost what he once had, and he came at a very hefty price tag that hindered our salary cap. It became obvious as the season wore on. That's the best we could get for a 50-60-point scorer?

As I said in my original post - I'm not blaming Gauthier for trades Bob made, but I don't think he should avoid scrutiny either.
I am sure that Gainey didn't sent Gauthier to Dallas to scout a player that Gainey perfectly know .

About Laperrierre , he was a way more expensive than Murray . With Bégin, Downey , Murray , plus Lapierre not to far , Latendresse able to play with his body , Komisarek and Souray , i think that it wasn't not so evident that we were to lack of gritty .

But just for HUET and STREIT (was recommanded by Pierre ) , i think that Gauthier is more in the positive range than in the negative .

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04-13-2007, 10:35 PM
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I know who I'd like as our GM. Trevor Timmins. He's a very smart guy, he's one of the best talent evaluator in the game, he has a good plan for developping players, he has a scientific background on exercice and sports, he has a MBA and a masters in sports administration. He would be a tremendous GM imo. In fact, I would give him the spot right away if I were Gillet or Boivin.
I completly disagree with you . The guy is a very good scout . LET HIM THERE .

Put him in another role and you'll risk to lose a good scout , and to get a bad GM .

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04-13-2007, 11:40 PM
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Originally Posted by turnbuckle View Post
The Ghost fittingly seems to pretty much escape scrutiny both here and in the media. He's been our pro scout for quite a spell...

We skip on the likes of Dumont, Laperriere, Gelinas to go after Samsonov. We acquire players like Vandermeer, Downey and Ivanans to fill an enforcer role; we trade Murray for Hossa, who having been given enough time and guidance is actually developing into an all around NHLer as much as I hate to admit it, Hainsey and Beauchemin were given up on for nothing, all we can acquire for Dallas' subsequent leading scorer is an overpaid, over-the-hill defenceman in Niinimaa ....

Gainey isn't without blame of course but many of those decisions involved the input of Gauthier obviously, he being the top pro scout in the organization. I'm not so sure he's got the best eye for talent.
He's the one who asked for Huet to be added in the Garon trade. But to be honest I pretty much agree with you, and I don't think Gainey, up to now, has shown he had a good eye for talent either. Savard leaving was a bigger loss than most people think IMO. The guy, like Kimota said, left because no one listened to him, which says a lot about our present management.

We'll se how it goes in the next few months, let's just hope we're wrong.

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04-14-2007, 12:31 AM
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keepign savard would have meant that we would be stockpiling good prospects for a long long time... (look what we've been doing since 2001...) If only Chipchura didn,t have that achille's injur i'd be less afraid for his development...but still we have Timmins... so we should still be ok in terms of drafting (also our Russian scout is bananaz)

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04-14-2007, 12:59 AM
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Who's to say I'm laying all the blame on him? No one should lay the "blame" on any one person.
You're right - we should look deep into the Hab's personel and blame as many people as possible!

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04-14-2007, 07:33 AM
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I think there are a lot of people here that should take up golfing or another activity to occupy their time...

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04-14-2007, 08:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turnbuckle View Post
The Ghost fittingly seems to pretty much escape scrutiny both here and in the media. He's been our pro scout for quite a spell...

We skip on the likes of Dumont, Laperriere, Gelinas to go after Samsonov. We acquire players like Vandermeer, Downey and Ivanans to fill an enforcer role; we trade Murray for Hossa, who having been given enough time and guidance is actually developing into an all around NHLer as much as I hate to admit it, Hainsey and Beauchemin were given up on for nothing, all we can acquire for Dallas' subsequent leading scorer is an overpaid, over-the-hill defenceman in Niinimaa ....

Gainey isn't without blame of course but many of those decisions involved the input of Gauthier obviously, he being the top pro scout in the organization. I'm not so sure he's got the best eye for talent.
I have always had the same hunch as you're expressing on Gauthier, tb. It's one of those things that is so impossible to prove, so gut-level, that everytime I mention it it basically goes ignored. Because, really, what can we say? We don't sit in the boardrooms, we have zero idea what Gauthier says, nor how much he's listened to. (Although there ought to be something fundamentally wrong if he's NOT listened to substantially... his position is a key one).

Anyway, I can quickly summarize my knocks on Gauthier thusly: he really really likes Patrick Traverse. What more needs to be said?

(Although I think his affinity for Traverse is actually somewhat symptomatic and indicative of some of his player personnel preferences in general too... part of the reason why teams like the Ducks and Sens had to re-structure with some toughnes and grit in order to turn the corner on mediocrity).

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04-14-2007, 08:46 AM
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I have always had the same hunch as you're expressing on Gauthier, tb. It's one of those things that is so impossible to prove, so gut-level, that everytime I mention it it basically goes ignored. Because, really, what can we say? We don't sit in the boardrooms, we have zero idea what Gauthier says, nor how much he's listened to. (Although there ought to be something fundamentally wrong if he's NOT listened to substantially... his position is a key one).

Anyway, I can quickly summarize my knocks on Gauthier thusly: he really really likes Patrick Traverse. What more needs to be said?

(Although I think his affinity for Traverse is actually somewhat symptomatic and indicative of some of his player personnel preferences in general too... part of the reason why teams like the Ducks and Sens had to re-structure with some toughnes and grit in order to turn the corner on mediocrity).
I kind of agree,but like you it's a hunch. Didn't he leave a few jobs under cloudy conditions ? It seems that there's been circumstances surrounding the way he left his last few jobs ? Maybe I'm unfair here, but like Erik said, Gainey hired the guy, was more comfortable with him than Andre Savard, so it's Gainey's call. If Gauthier leans towards a 'type' of player, Gainey has to realize that, no ?

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