HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The History of Hockey
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

Why arent great players great coaches?

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
04-14-2007, 02:24 AM
  #1
Big Phil
Registered User
 
Big Phil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 21,364
vCash: 500
Why arent great players great coaches?

Yes I know this doesnt realte to everyone but just generally. Why do you think a great player doesnt make a great coach quite often? And vice versa, why do poor or marginal players quite often make great coaches? Here's some examples

Scotty Bowman - never played an NHL game (he got wacked over the head to end his career early) he's the greatest coach ever

Pat Burns - Never played an NHL game, great coach

Pat Quinn - Okay but not great defenseman, an although the Cup has eluded him he's been a great coach

Ted Nolan - He's been coach of the year

Don Cherry - Love him or hate him he was a good coach who only played one NHL game

On the flip side here's some great players that havent been memorable in suits

Bill Gadsby - All-star defenseman had a poor coaching record

Wayne Gretzky - Sure he hasnt had a lot to work with but he's had a couple years, just poor results so far

Gerry Cheevers and Terry O'Reilly were great/very good players but no more than average coaches



There are exceptions too. Toe Blake would have made the Hall of Fame even as just a coach not just a player. But in general why is it that the greats dont usually translate their success behind the bench? Is it because it's hard ot teach players things that came so naturally to them?

Big Phil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-14-2007, 02:38 AM
  #2
Nalyd Psycho
Registered User
 
Nalyd Psycho's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: No Bandwagon
Country: Canada
Posts: 23,384
vCash: 500
There is Toe Blake, one of the all-time great coachs and a former NHL MVP. Dick Irvin was a star in the western leagues and had a few good NHL seasons, Hap Day was one of the top 10 d-men of his day and coached a dynasty.

But, one thing I notice is that the exceptions are old school. It seems star players have a tendancy to push their players to achieve the standards they played to. Larry Robinson is an example of a good coach who tends to burn out his players. So, it seems, in the player coach era, players make so-so coaches.

__________________
Every post comes with the Nalyd Psycho Seal of Approval.
Nalyd Psycho is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-14-2007, 02:46 AM
  #3
pitseleh
Registered User
 
pitseleh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 17,790
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Is it because it's hard ot teach players things that came so naturally to them?
I think that's exactly it. Same thing with professors here at school. Generally, the brightest minds tend to be the worst teachers, since they don't get why people don't understand things. It came a lot easier to them, so it's difficult to see where people are getting tripped up on things.

pitseleh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-14-2007, 09:07 AM
  #4
arrbez
bad chi
 
arrbez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,692
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to arrbez
Larry Robinson won a Championship as a coach, although I'm beginning to think a hamster could coach the devils without anyone noticing a difference.

arrbez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-14-2007, 09:36 AM
  #5
Melrose Munch
Registered User
 
Melrose Munch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 16,219
vCash: 500
My Dad and I were talking about this. It seems that great coaches seems to be able to get more discipline out of players, compared to great players, who try to be the players friends. It's like parenting.

Melrose Munch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-14-2007, 09:51 AM
  #6
LyleOdelein
Registered User
 
LyleOdelein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Renfrew
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,672
vCash: 500
The obvious answer is coaching and playing are two different jobs requiring differing skills and assets. This is like asking 'Why don't great d-men make great forwards?' or 'why don't great scouts make great GMs?' Many people don't have the variety of skills required to be in the elite of both professions.

LyleOdelein is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-14-2007, 09:59 AM
  #7
MXD
Registered User
 
MXD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 23,735
vCash: 500
Jacques Lemaire, even if you can argue with the fact he's considered a GREAT player (but if Terry O'Reilly is considered a great player, I don't know why Lemaire shouldn't) isn't exactly a bad coach.

MXD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-14-2007, 11:57 AM
  #8
ES
Registered User
 
ES's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Finland
Country: Finland
Posts: 2,723
vCash: 500
In the recent times I think Lemaire could be only HHOF player who would make it as the coach as well. Probably Robinson but not too sure about it.

ES is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-14-2007, 01:17 PM
  #9
seventieslord
Moderator
 
seventieslord's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Regina, SK
Country: Canada
Posts: 26,228
vCash: 500
Gretzky, not a good coach? Gretzky's a great coach!!!

seventieslord is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
04-14-2007, 04:04 PM
  #10
Canadarocks
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 273
vCash: 500
I've heard that Scotty Bowman was actually quite a good player. Who knows what would have happened if he wasn't injured? By the way, why does it seem that it is the Montreal Canadiens greats that made the best coaches (Toe Blake, Larry Robinson, Jacques Lemaire)?

Canadarocks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-14-2007, 04:09 PM
  #11
pitseleh
Registered User
 
pitseleh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 17,790
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadarocks View Post
I've heard that Scotty Bowman was actually quite a good player. Who knows what would have happened if he wasn't injured? By the way, why does it seem that it is the Montreal Canadiens greats that made the best coaches (Toe Blake, Larry Robinson, Jacques Lemaire)?
My guess would be they learned from the best. Blake played under Dick Irvin and Lemaire/Robinson under Bowman.

pitseleh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-14-2007, 04:47 PM
  #12
VanIslander
Hope for better 2015
 
VanIslander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 19,742
vCash: 500
There were some great player-coaches (dual role simultaneously) in the era before millionaires.

The last of them may have been Butch Goring, who was assistant coach AND player for the Isles last two Stanley Cup championship seasons.

VanIslander is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-14-2007, 05:19 PM
  #13
Morris Wanchuk
.......
 
Morris Wanchuk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: War Memorial Arena
Country: United States
Posts: 15,168
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Morris Wanchuk
Terry O'reilly an average coach? He brought an underdogs bruins team to the finals in 1988 and in that same year beat the habs for the first time in 4 decades.

If it wasnt for harry sinden's ability to burn through coaches he would have been behind the bruins bench for a while

Morris Wanchuk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-14-2007, 05:45 PM
  #14
Speedshank
Registered User
 
Speedshank's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Edmonton
Country: Canada
Posts: 272
vCash: 500
True great players have the natural skill to be the best when playing the game...

Natural skill will not make you a great coach...

Players who have become successful coaches are players who had to work hard at the game but more importantly became students of the game.

They're players who simply accept and adopt what the coaches preach. And they're players who go the next step and want to learn and understand.

I think it's obvious which type of player becomes a successful coach!

Speedshank is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-14-2007, 06:01 PM
  #15
reckoning
Registered User
 
reckoning's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,556
vCash: 500
It seems like goalies rarely become head coaches. Cheevers and Glen Hanlon are the only two I can think of.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pitseleh
My guess would be they learned from the best. Blake played under Dick Irvin and Lemaire/Robinson under Bowman.
A lot of guys from that 70s Habs dynasty became coaches. Lemaire, Robinson, Gainey and Tremblay were NHL head coaches. Savard, Dryden, Houle and Risebrough were GMs. Shutt and LaPointe were assistant coaches, Jarvis coached in the AHL.

In Don Cherry's book, he mentioned how so many of his teammates who played for Eddie Shore in Springfield went on to become coaches.

As you said, they learn from the best.

reckoning is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-14-2007, 06:08 PM
  #16
VanIslander
Hope for better 2015
 
VanIslander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 19,742
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by reckoning View Post
A lot of guys from that 70s Habs dynasty became coaches. Lemaire, Robinson, Gainey and Tremblay were NHL head coaches. Savard, Dryden, Houle and Risebrough were GMs. Shutt and LaPointe were assistant coaches, Jarvis coached in the AHL.
You somehow overlooked the most experienced coach in the NHL today: ex-Hab Jacques Laperriere, a quarter century as NHL assistant coach! and counting...

VanIslander is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-14-2007, 08:46 PM
  #17
XploD
Registered User
 
XploD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Country: Sweden
Posts: 3,242
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by pitseleh View Post
I think that's exactly it. Same thing with professors here at school. Generally, the brightest minds tend to be the worst teachers, since they don't get why people don't understand things. It came a lot easier to them, so it's difficult to see where people are getting tripped up on things.
Good theory.

XploD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-15-2007, 01:42 AM
  #18
Nalyd Psycho
Registered User
 
Nalyd Psycho's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: No Bandwagon
Country: Canada
Posts: 23,384
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by reckoning View Post

In Don Cherry's book, he mentioned how so many of his teammates who played for Eddie Shore in Springfield went on to become coaches.
They also mutinied against him and got him removed from the team he owned...

Truely, hockey's greatest *******.

Brian Kilrea was on that team.

Nalyd Psycho is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-15-2007, 01:37 PM
  #19
seventieslord
Moderator
 
seventieslord's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Regina, SK
Country: Canada
Posts: 26,228
vCash: 500
What about Bryan Trottier? His short tenure as Rangers coach was BRUTAL.

Just another in a long list.

I like the argument that it's tough to be in the world's elite in both skill sets. Even though the skill sets are so intertwined.

seventieslord is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
04-15-2007, 02:46 PM
  #20
12# Peter Bondra
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Country: Slovakia
Posts: 8,688
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
What about Bryan Trottier? His short tenure as Rangers coach was BRUTAL.

Just another in a long list.

I like the argument that it's tough to be in the world's elite in both skill sets. Even though the skill sets are so intertwined.
Well, he did win the Cup as an assistant coach.

12# Peter Bondra is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-15-2007, 03:32 PM
  #21
Wisent
Registered User
 
Wisent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Mannheim
Country: Germany
Posts: 3,667
vCash: 500
I think that to be a great teacher has a completely different skill set that a great player needs to have. A part might be that things come natural to greats (although I don`t believe that is the case with all the greats) but to get people to understand what you are saying, to motivate them into doing things is something completely different from doing them. There is a reason why teachers need to take pedagogy classes in order to become teachers. Coaches need a similar skill. Actually, for me it is understandable that a coach can be someone who never played the game they teach but who understands the system.

Wisent is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:51 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2015 All Rights Reserved.