HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > Prospects
Prospects Discuss hockey prospects from all over the world and the NHL Draft.

League ranking?? WHL/OHL/AHL/QMJHL/NCAA

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
04-15-2007, 04:52 PM
  #26
Le depisteur
Registered User
 
Le depisteur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Québec
Posts: 3,788
vCash: 500
1. Ahl
2. Ncaa
3. Whl
4. Ohl
5. Qmjhl

Le depisteur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-16-2007, 07:17 AM
  #27
Louiss
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 875
vCash: 500
1- Ahl
2- Ncaa
3- Whl
4- Qmjhl
5-ohl

Louiss is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-16-2007, 10:56 AM
  #28
Spike777
Registered User
 
Spike777's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Country: United States
Posts: 143
vCash: 500
1-ahl
2-ncaa
3-ohl
4-whl
5-qmjhl
6-ushl

Spike777 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-16-2007, 12:35 PM
  #29
The Exiled One
Registered User
 
The Exiled One's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: State of Hockey
Country: United States
Posts: 1,035
vCash: 500
Since the skill levels of players in these leagues often overlap, I think a "player skill range" would be a better way to compare all the leagues. I don't know that I'm the best person to determine the "player skill range", but I'll take a shot...

1. NHL (80-100)
2. AHL (70-90)
3. NCAA (50-85)
4. USNTDP (65-80)
4. CHL's (55-80)
5. USHL (50-75)
6. BCHL (45-75)
7. AAA Midget (45-70)
8. Other Canadian Junior A (40-65)
9. MSHSL (25-65)

...or something like that. Obviously, there'll always be players like Sidney Crosby and John Tavares that fall out of the range because they legally CAN'T play any higher. Crosby was probably a 80 when he played AAA Midget (Shattuck), a 90 when he played in the "Q", and is obviously now a solid 99.999999.

The Exiled One is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-16-2007, 03:29 PM
  #30
RUSqueelin
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,061
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Victory Ali View Post

NCAA - From what I understand the NCAA is very much like the NHL game. NCAA prospects have a little bit of stigma to them because they usually take an extra year or two from players in juniors to join their NHL team's systems. NCAA is noted for having a game very much like the NHL. I believe NCAA players can't play in the CHL so a lot smaller leagues like the BCHL feed into the NCAA. Players who have a stronger desire for a solid education usually go this route.

Notable Graduates: Brendan Morrison, Martin St. Louis
Actually the NCAA is far from an NHL type of play. It's not the same at all. CHL is the best comparision for an NHL style type of play.

RUSqueelin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-16-2007, 04:45 PM
  #31
slade
Registered User
 
slade's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: 18 Winspear Ltd.
Country: United States
Posts: 2,515
vCash: 500
i wouldnt say there is much difference between the chl leagues...only preference.

the ncaa is chock full of older, better conditioned players. wouldn't say they are necessarily more or less skilled.

slade is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-16-2007, 05:29 PM
  #32
VOB
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Michigan
Posts: 1,566
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by crazedcanuck View Post
I've been going through a ton of prospects, and am fairly new to the whole scene.

I notice guys putting up 100 pts in the QMJHL ranked lower than those putting up 50 in the NCAA.

Can someone clarify the difference in skill and difficulty... sort of tier the different developmental leagues?
Are we talking about development? Then the CHL is certainly second to none and no other amature league affords its players the hockey environment that the CHL does.

In terms of level of play, of course the AHL is a significant step up above the CHL/NCAA.

The CHL is on par with the NCAA. Yes some would argue that the age difference makes the NCAA better and some have said that the CIS all star teams often beat the CHL ones, but this statement is wrong on a couple of points.

First off the Canadian squad does not represent the absolute best of the CHL player pool. There are many Czechs/Slovaks, Swedes and Americans in the league who would certainly be on a true CHL allstar team. The CIS teams are often beat rather handily by the CHL ones and when they do manage to pull off a rare win, its often because the goalie on loan from the CHL stands on his head as was the case with Carey Price this year.

The age difference between the CHL and the NCAA is not as pronounced as some would have you believe. I often chuckle when I read "24 year old players in the NCAA vs 15 and 16 year olds in the CHL"

Boston College, Minnesota and Michigan all had average ages of under 21. North Dokata was 21 exactly. The Plymouth Whalers average 19 exactly. We are only talking about two years difference.

In terms of overall talent, once again the CHL is peerless. One only need to look at the top players in the NHL today or recent draft lifts for verification. This does not mean that the talent level in the NCAA is weak but rather it is concentrated among a dozen teams or so. A team like Minnesota is stacked with unbelivable talent but a Ferris State is pretty baren.

VOB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-16-2007, 05:33 PM
  #33
Sportacus
:)
 
Sportacus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,683
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Victory Ali View Post
This usually leads to passionate debates but I'm always interested to read people's opinions on this. From what I understand from the stereotypes.

The WHL, QMJHL, and OHL are part of a bigger association known as the CHL or Canadian Junior League. This is the major or highest level of juniors in North America and what people are referring too when they talk about "juniors". There's also other smaller but notable junior leagues out there such as the BCHL or British Columbia Hockey League.

WHL - Defensive tough league with a emphasis on strong defensive play. A lot of decent defenseman, grinders, and occasionally strong offensive players come of the Dub.

Notable Graduates - Jarome Ignila, Dion Phaneuf

QMJHL - Offense first league with a emphasis on the run and gun. A lot of high scoring players come out of this league

Notable Graduates - Mario Lemeuix, Sidney Crosby

OHL - All-Around League. I honestly don't know much about the OHL but I guess it's reputation is that it's solid for it's all around play.

Notable Graduates - I'm not sure

AHL - The AHL is the minor leagues for NHL teams. Players who aren't yet ready for the NHL or who aren't good enough for the NHL get sent there.

Notable Graduates: Olaf Kolzig, Brett Hull

NCAA - From what I understand the NCAA is very much like the NHL game. NCAA prospects have a little bit of stigma to them because they usually take an extra year or two from players in juniors to join their NHL team's systems. NCAA is noted for having a game very much like the NHL. I believe NCAA players can't play in the CHL so a lot smaller leagues like the BCHL feed into the NCAA. Players who have a stronger desire for a solid education usually go this route.

Notable Graduates: Brendan Morrison, Martin St. Louis

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure Hull didn't play in AHL?

EDIT: Nevermind, he had 1 season, but had 2 in NCAA and 2 in BCJHL

EDIT 2: And the OHA became the OHL in I think 1980. That's why you're having trouble finding Noticeable Graduates of it. Gretzky, for example, played in the last year of the OHA I think. Others Include Dino CIccarelli and Denis Potvin

__________________
Based on Japanese History

Last edited by Sportacus: 04-16-2007 at 05:41 PM.
Sportacus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-16-2007, 09:47 PM
  #34
MN_Gopher
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Mpls
Posts: 3,223
vCash: 1582
Quote:
Originally Posted by VOB View Post
The age difference between the CHL and the NCAA is not as pronounced as some would have you believe. I often chuckle when I read "24 year old players in the NCAA vs 15 and 16 year olds in the CHL"

Boston College, Minnesota and Michigan all had average ages of under 21. North Dokata was 21 exactly. The Plymouth Whalers average 19 exactly. We are only talking about two years difference..

Look at the teams that win the NCAAs every year though. Age is a factor within the NCAA itself. Wisconsin last year. Earl. Burrish, Gilbert, Likens, Elliot, McMurchy all upperclassmen 11 total. Thats was a lot of 83-85 borns. Mich St 5 seniors and 7 juniors i think. 11 upperclassmen for BC. The gophers had 2 seniors and 6 juniors. Those juniors include Solei who never saw the ice and Pohl who onlt played because of injuries. Wonder who made it the furtherst? The teams with the upperclaamen leadership. In five years though what team on paper will have looked better. Age is a huge factor. Even one year when talking about teens and early 20s makes a huge difference.

MN_Gopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-17-2007, 03:56 AM
  #35
VOB
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Michigan
Posts: 1,566
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MN_Gopher View Post
Look at the teams that win the NCAAs every year though. Age is a factor within the NCAA itself. Wisconsin last year. Earl. Burrish, Gilbert, Likens, Elliot, McMurchy all upperclassmen 11 total. Thats was a lot of 83-85 borns. Mich St 5 seniors and 7 juniors i think. 11 upperclassmen for BC. The gophers had 2 seniors and 6 juniors. Those juniors include Solei who never saw the ice and Pohl who onlt played because of injuries. Wonder who made it the furtherst? The teams with the upperclaamen leadership. In five years though what team on paper will have looked better. Age is a huge factor. Even one year when talking about teens and early 20s makes a huge difference.
B.C.'s average age is less than 21, similiar to that of Minnesota. Last year they were even younger (youngest in the NCAA) with an average age of 20 yet they made it to the finals both years.

VOB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-17-2007, 09:57 AM
  #36
MN_Gopher
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Mpls
Posts: 3,223
vCash: 1582
Quote:
Originally Posted by VOB View Post
B.C.'s average age is less than 21, similiar to that of Minnesota. Last year they were even younger (youngest in the NCAA) with an average age of 20 yet they made it to the finals both years.
But it was guys like Boyle, Ginota and Collins all older players that stepped it up. If Porter was not on NoDaks team it would not have been the same. Its upper classmen leadership and older role players that help win championships. And still two years is huge.

MN_Gopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-17-2007, 01:46 PM
  #37
Letang fan 58
No More Fleury
 
Letang fan 58's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,770
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by LaLaLaprise View Post
How is it flawed???

The Best 19 year olds in CANADA cant blow out 23-24 year olds who likely wont play any higher than the ECHL...

It is about AGE...the age factor is huge.
Well I disagree that the best 19 year olds arent better then the average 23-24 year olds to start with..........Next........dont forget that the CHL also has 20 year olds that arent allowed in the tourney........Now im wondering what the average age for players in the NCAA are because I dont think its anywhere near 23-24 im guessing closer to 19.

Letang fan 58 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-17-2007, 01:48 PM
  #38
5mn Major
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Country: United States
Posts: 954
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by VOB View Post
B.C.'s average age is less than 21, similiar to that of Minnesota. Last year they were even younger (youngest in the NCAA) with an average age of 20 yet they made it to the finals both years.
How many CHL teams have:

- An average age of about 21...and have 12 draft picks like BC?

- Even an average age of about 20 with about 17 draft picks and 4+ first round picks for both UND and Minnesota?

5mn Major is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-17-2007, 02:16 PM
  #39
LaLaLaprise
lalalaprise -twitter
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Halifax, Nova Scotia
Posts: 8,717
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by phaneuf_fan_3 View Post
Well I disagree that the best 19 year olds arent better then the average 23-24 year olds to start with..........Next........dont forget that the CHL also has 20 year olds that arent allowed in the tourney........Now im wondering what the average age for players in the NCAA are because I dont think its anywhere near 23-24 im guessing closer to 19.
The rpoof is in the games there bud.

The Team Canada U20 team can not beat a CIS team handily...what more proof do you need? You can skew the facts all you want but at the end of the day, the U20 Team Canada guys cant blow out a CIS team.

Im not sure why you brng 20 year olds into the argument...as those Canada U20 players are scattered around 60 CHL teams...so basially the average CHL team would get thumped by the average NCAA team.

CIS teams lose to NCAA teams...and a CIS team competes against the top 20 U20 players in Canada...its basic logic.

LaLaLaprise is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-17-2007, 02:23 PM
  #40
The Exiled One
Registered User
 
The Exiled One's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: State of Hockey
Country: United States
Posts: 1,035
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by phaneuf_fan_3 View Post
Now im wondering what the average age for players in the NCAA are because I dont think its anywhere near 23-24 im guessing closer to 19.
http://www.collegehockeynews.com/alm...r-birthday.php

Actually, it's closer to 21 1/2. So the oldest player in the CHL is younger than the average NCAA player. Age matters, a lot.

Again, I think the best way to rank leagues regardless of age is a "player rating range". You'll notice that I have some of the worst college players not good enough to play in the CHL, which should make some of the CHL fans happy! Adjust the ranges if you wish, but frankly there is a higher percentage of NHL ready players in the NCAA right now.

1. NHL (80-100)
2. AHL (70-90)
3. NCAA (50-85)
4. USNTDP (65-80)
4. CHL's (55-80)
5. USHL (50-75)
6. BCHL (45-75)
7. AAA Midget (45-70)
8. Other Canadian Junior A (40-65)
9. MSHSL (25-65)


Last edited by The Exiled One: 04-17-2007 at 02:34 PM.
The Exiled One is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-17-2007, 02:39 PM
  #41
Gump Hasek
Spleen Merchant
 
Gump Hasek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 6,715
vCash: 1350
Quote:
Originally Posted by 5mn Major View Post
How many CHL teams have:

- An average age of about 21...and have 12 draft picks like BC?

- Even an average age of about 20 with about 17 draft picks and 4+ first round picks for both UND and Minnesota?
That isn't a valid CHL/NCAA comparison since a large portion of the rosters of CHL teams are made up of players not yet old enough to be drafted.

Gump Hasek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-17-2007, 03:10 PM
  #42
Gump Hasek
Spleen Merchant
 
Gump Hasek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 6,715
vCash: 1350
Far more CHL produced players are playing in the NHL right now than are former NCAA players.

At season's end,the OHL, WHL, and QMJHL champions compete for the CHL league championship Memorial Cup.

As such, the league ratings should probably read like this:
1)AHL
2)CHL
3)The rest

Gump Hasek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-17-2007, 03:14 PM
  #43
5mn Major
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Country: United States
Posts: 954
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gump Hasek View Post
That isn't a valid CHL/NCAA comparison since a large portion of the rosters of CHL teams are made up of players not yet old enough to be drafted.
Valid...but again that's part of the story here...players in the CHL aren't ready to be drafted.

OK so how many CHL teams can look back and say that at one point they had 4+ kids that went on to be 1st round picks (another 4 or so second round picks and yet another 8 or so that went on to be drafted in later rounds). Even then, remember most of these CHL picks in this scenario aren't even 18 yet...and their level of play in theory is less than 18-20 yos who are drafted and in the NCAAs.

5mn Major is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-17-2007, 03:20 PM
  #44
5mn Major
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Country: United States
Posts: 954
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Exiled One View Post
1. NHL (80-100)
2. AHL (70-90)
3. NCAA (50-85)
4. USNTDP (65-80)
4. CHL's (55-80)
5. USHL (50-75)
6. BCHL (45-75)
7. AAA Midget (45-70)
8. Other Canadian Junior A (40-65)
9. MSHSL (25-65)
Exiled, I like the approach...but IMO you may want to work the numbers a bit more. You've got the majority of USHL and BCHL players at the same level and the USNTDP technically better than the NCAA...which I think is 'extremely generous'. That's regardless of the fact that I (and it appears most others) don't agree that the NCAA and CHL are at the same level.

5mn Major is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-17-2007, 03:22 PM
  #45
Gump Hasek
Spleen Merchant
 
Gump Hasek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 6,715
vCash: 1350
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gump Hasek View Post
Far more CHL produced players are playing in the NHL right now than are former NCAA players.

Gump Hasek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-17-2007, 03:48 PM
  #46
RUSqueelin
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,061
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by 5mn Major View Post
Valid...but again that's part of the story here...players in the CHL aren't ready to be drafted.

OK so how many CHL teams can look back and say that at one point they had 4+ kids that went on to be 1st round picks (another 4 or so second round picks and yet another 8 or so that went on to be drafted in later rounds). Even then, remember most of these CHL picks in this scenario aren't even 18 yet...and their level of play in theory is less than 18-20 yos who are drafted and in the NCAAs.

They would if they didn't have a draft and a few teams could stack teams like a few in the NCAA.

Don't you guys get tired of this argument? It's the same posters making the same comments every time.

RUSqueelin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-17-2007, 04:00 PM
  #47
The Exiled One
Registered User
 
The Exiled One's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: State of Hockey
Country: United States
Posts: 1,035
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by 5mn Major View Post
Exiled, I like the approach...but IMO you may want to work the numbers a bit more. You've got the majority of USHL and BCHL players at the same level and the USNTDP technically better than the NCAA...which I think is 'extremely generous'. That's regardless of the fact that I (and it appears most others) don't agree that the NCAA and CHL are at the same level.
Yeah, I knew I wouldn't be the best person at choosing the numbers, but the system is the key. As for the USNTDP, the range should be quite narrow and decent enough that they can beat some NCAA teams regularly, yet lose to other teams regularly ...so whatever that would be.

The Exiled One is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-17-2007, 04:49 PM
  #48
Erika
Registered User
 
Erika's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Ville Lasalle
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,923
vCash: 500
I don't understand what's with the Idea of the Q being an easy scoring league. The OHL became the most offensive league in the CHL in the last 3-4 seasons.

The Q is very underrated here, because it's not high scoring anymore. Two-way players has gone up and grinders too. Defencemens are getting better every year. The only that has regress are the goaltenders because they don't face 45 shots a game anymore.

I'd rank the league like this:

NCAA
WHL
LHJMQ / OHL
BCHL / USHL

Erika is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-17-2007, 05:00 PM
  #49
VOB
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Michigan
Posts: 1,566
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MN_Gopher View Post
But it was guys like Boyle, Ginota and Collins all older players that stepped it up. If Porter was not on NoDaks team it would not have been the same. Its upper classmen leadership and older role players that help win championships. And still two years is huge.
Check the summary for the B.C. - N.Dokata game. You will find that underclassmen like Toews, Bertram, Chorney and Motherwell were instrumental. These are all young players. For MSU, LERG, SUCHARSKI, KENNEDY, ABDELKADER and MUELLER were all underclassmen and under the age of 21 (meaning they would have been eligible to play in the CHL this year) and were absolutely pivotal in the MSU championship.

Quote:
The Team Canada U20 team can not beat a CIS team handily...what more proof do you need? You can skew the facts all you want but at the end of the day, the U20 Team Canada guys cant blow out a CIS team.
Once again, team Canada does not represent the entire best of the CHL. Secondly Team Canada has a winning record against CIS all star teams and have on occasion blown them out of the water. It should also be noted that in the past CIS all star teams have beaten NCAA select teams.

VOB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-17-2007, 05:07 PM
  #50
LaLaLaprise
lalalaprise -twitter
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Halifax, Nova Scotia
Posts: 8,717
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by VOB View Post
Check the summary for the B.C. - N.Dokata game. You will find that underclassmen like Toews, Bertram, Chorney and Motherwell were instrumental. These are all young players. For MSU, LERG, SUCHARSKI, KENNEDY, ABDELKADER and MUELLER were all underclassmen and under the age of 21 (meaning they would have been eligible to play in the CHL this year) and were absolutely pivotal in the MSU championship.



Once again, team Canada does not represent the entire best of the CHL. Secondly Team Canada has a winning record against CIS all star teams and have on occasion blown them out of the water. It should also be noted that in the past CIS all star teams have beaten NCAA select teams.
VOB...how does Team Canada U20 not represent the best of the league??? Its the best players in the CHL aged 16-19...yes, you cant include euro's, US players and 20 year olds but I still think thats an accurate measure.

Also the point I was trying to make on that was how big of a factor age is.

LaLaLaprise is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:49 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.