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Old
10-06-2007, 03:35 AM
  #176
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Originally Posted by Gwyddbwyll View Post
Jerry Collins is about the slowest player at the World Cup.
Hahahaha, no.

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(to the point of illegally so in most games)
Any Flanker worth his salt walks a fine line with the rules. He isn't doing his job if he doesn't, because it means he's not tryign to win possesion for hi team. Its the way its always been.

See Francois Pienaar, Owen Finnegan, Abdelatif Benazzi, Graham Mourie, Michael Jones.

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Sooialo isnt much better.
Oh, just stop it. I've seen these guys play for years, and there is no dount they are supreme and damaging rugby players.

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Those two arent the reason NZ are so good.
I didn't say they were the reason New Zelanad were good. I said good teams have good loose forwards. And lo and bheold, New Zealand have great loose forwards.


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Corry the relic - that's the guy who danced in from the wing to score a try recently?
Ok, you have a very odd interpretation of someone "dancing in from the wing".

Am I supposed to be impressed about a try against Samoa? Is that what you're trying to tell me? And then you have the nerve to say he's the equal (!!!) of two of the most devasting forwards in world rugby? You aren't fooling me. You must be a very new rugby fan, or someone who doesn't watch these players very often. I understand you're English, but come on.

Quote:
oblem is England has four no.6's in Easter, Worsley, Corry and Moody and no natural 8's or 7's (except for the young Rees). Much like their backs, it's unbalanced.
Yeah, they have a poor back row like said. And they're slow.

Quote:
Australia themselves respect England a lot when it comes to ten man rugby. I agree that the Australian scrum has really improved though, but it's still going to be an area England need to target. There's a reason why Australia's coach is trying to pressurise the referee to de-power out of the scrum.
All I said is the Australian scrum is highly improved and a formidable unit, and that England will need more than a scrum to compete.


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Farrell is out injured.
So I've heard. And so is Olly Barkley. Which means Mke Catt starts at 12.

Catt was washed up 2 years ago. The attacking options are sliding already.

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He doesnt have the best skills or longest passes
Which means Wilkinson has to stand off close to the ruck and set piece. Englands ball service will be targeted. And you know what I've been saying about a speedy back row.....

There are plenty of smart rugby players, hell its almost pre-requisite to take the field. It doesn't mean they're all good ones.

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I'm not sure why you say there are no weapons - England do have some try-scorers. Robinson has proved himself many times over
You mean the 33 year old Jason Robinson who's coming off a hamstring strain.

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and Tait is an international Sevens MVP
Sevens!? Oh don't waste my time with Sevens talk! If Sevens was worth spit, Waisale Serevi would be the one of the greatest of all time.

You're proving my point here. The reason I didn't mention Robinson was because I didn't expect him to play. Its hard to say that he wont be diminished in any case. But you can only then name the underwhelming Matthew Tait and cite a sevens tournament? Its clutching at straws.

Wilkinson doesn't run the ball often like he used to. Catt is.....Catt. They'll be playing against a rock solid defensive unit, one that has been able to contain the All Blacks in a way that no other unit has done for quite some time. The conclusion is that England do not have the attack to worry Australia, not do they have the tactis. I cite the South African game, where on the back of a turnover inside the Springboks half, and in semi-broken play, England attempted a field goal. A field goal? What kind of attitude is that? They don't have the attack, and they don't have the confidence or the attitude to attack.

Again, at the end of the day, it will be up to the Australians whether they win or not.

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10-06-2007, 03:40 AM
  #177
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Originally Posted by Morozov View Post
Also Englands scrum may be a weapon against Australia and a collaboration of piss poor countries but they have nothing on New Zealand. What happened back when Sheridan was being built up as some amazing prop by the english media? oh thats right Hayman and the nz front row ate him alive. The english scrum is nothing to be proud of, NZ and SA those scrums are worthy of the term weapon.
But even then during the Tri-Nations, the Australian scrum held their own against South Africa and New Zealand. Didn't dominate, sure, didn't come out ahead in all encounters, maybe. But if they can hold up against those packs, they can hold up against pack.

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10-06-2007, 03:41 AM
  #178
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Originally Posted by Morozov View Post
Jerry Collins is about the slowest player at the World Cup is your exact quote so riiight you were really addressing backrow players. That is the direct quote from what you said.
Perhaps you should have read what I was responding to - it is right there in my post after all.

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Originally Posted by clefty View Post
2. The back row. What do the best teams in this competition have in common? A fast and aggressive back row: Juan Smith and Scott Burger in South Africa; Richie McCaw (does the work of two players) and Jerry Collins in New Zealand; and George Smith and Rocky Elsom in Australia.
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Wow its not like any international forward hasnt had a few incidents but you say he does things "illegally" in "most games" one incident isnt reflective of "most games" have seen plenty of dodgy things from English players but I dont say they play "illegally" in "most games".
I dont like Collins and I dont make a secret of it. It's not just the rare incident, most times I've seen him play, there's something nasty the way he plays, with an intent to injure. That hair-pulling wasnt just hair-pulling.. the guy was dragging with all his weight down on Smith's hair. That was just downright disgusting behaviour. Shoulder barges, late tackles, stamping, clothesliners.. he's done it all. I dont respect him.

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Really mate you dont have a clue, Collins isnt in the team for his muscle at all and neither is Rodders, if it was about muscle we would start Lauaki over Rodders. Obviously you are blind to the fact that Collins regularly is offloading, making passes, making big tackles, making skilled plays that most guys of his size could only dream of. Are you arguing the fact that English players dont compare to them? I dont see why because its the truth. Not a single spot in a true world xv would be held by a member of the English team right now, Robinson would be the only debateable one but Latham is much better.
Dont know why you're so hostile and have to tell me I know nothing, just because you dont like my opinions. Collins is not a skill player at all and hardly makes plays that others dream of. Strong tackler is his best feature - his muscle is the reason he's in the team not his delicately beautiful off-loads. And yes England have plenty of players with the skills of Collins and So'oialo - that's their biggest problem.

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Please keep proving you know nothing about All Black rugby, Jack more of a star than Collins? yeh right.
Not more of a star.. more of a real rugby player.

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10-06-2007, 03:45 AM
  #179
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Originally Posted by Gwyddbwyll View Post
WI was simply saying it wasnt accurate to say England had NO weapons.
But I didn't say that. I said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by clefty
I just don't see England having the weapons to penetrate the Australian defensive line.
In which part do I say "no weapons" at all? I was really talking about the quality of the Australian defense, anyway, which is why I entitled the third point as "Defense".

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10-06-2007, 03:49 AM
  #180
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gwyddbwyll View Post
Perhaps you should have read what I was responding to - it is right there in my post after all.

Do I need to repeat your exact quote again? not my fault if you cant make things clear enough




I dont like Collins and I dont make a secret of it. It's not just the rare incident, most times I've seen him play, there's something nasty the way he plays, with an intent to injure. That hair-pulling wasnt just hair-pulling.. the guy was dragging with all his weight down on Smith's hair. That was just downright disgusting behaviour. Shoulder barges, late tackles, stamping, clothesliners.. he's done it all. I dont respect him.



Dont know why you're so hostile and have to tell me I know nothing, just because you dont like my opinions. Collins is not a skill player at all and hardly makes plays that others dream of. Strong tackler is his best feature - his muscle is the reason he's in the team not his delicately beautiful off-loads. And yes England have plenty of players with the skills of Collins and So'oialo - that's their biggest problem.

Please continue again to prove that you know nothing about Jerry Collins, you obviously havent watched him at this word cup at all, he is "not a skill player at all" yet he does things like score off his own chip and chase kicks, drawing in two players and flicking a behind the back pass for a try, making offload after offload everygame. Strong tackler is indeed his best feature hell the Australian super 14 franchises voted him the the most intimidating player around but you cant say that he isnt a skill player because he has proven regularly that he has immense skills. You either dont watch him or watched him at the beggining of his career when he was nothing but a ball carrier. You are welcome to keep making yourself look stupid but maybe you should try and find some highlights of the world cup nz games so far and watch the skills on show and yes other players of his size can only dream of the things he does


Not more of a star.. more of a real rugby player.
Lol please do tell me what your definition of a real rugby player is? besides you said mccaw and jack are the real stars now your saying jack isnt a star but is more of a real rugby player? make your mind up. I bet you consider Mccaw a "real rugby player" but he cheats more than anyone and just doesnt get caught, why? because thats his job and being the best in the world at getting away with cheating is what makes mccaw arguably the best player in the world


Last edited by Morozov: 10-06-2007 at 03:59 AM.
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Old
10-06-2007, 04:00 AM
  #181
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Originally Posted by clefty View Post
Hahahaha, no.
So you really believe Collins is one of the fastest flankers in the tournament? That was the point I was trying to make.. I'm not sure what isnt clear about that.

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Any Flanker worth his salt walks a fine line with the rules. He isn't doing his job if he doesn't, because it means he's not tryign to win possesion for hi team. Its the way its always been.

See Francois Pienaar, Owen Finnegan, Abdelatif Benazzi, Graham Mourie, Michael Jones.
Maybe you should watch the hair pulling video. Yeah... the poor guy was just trying to walk a fine line there. Diddums.

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Ok, you have a very odd interpretation of someone "dancing in from the wing".
He was out on the wing and scored a try from there.. that's what that means. Certainly doesnt befit someone called a relic.

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Am I supposed to be impressed about a try against Samoa? Is that what you're trying to tell me? And then you have the nerve to say he's the equal (!!!) of two of the most devasting forwards in world rugby? You aren't fooling me. You must be a very new rugby fan, or someone who doesn't watch these players very often. I understand you're English, but come on.
Ahhh the old personal attack if you dont like the opinion. Classy.

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All I said is the Australian scrum is highly improved and a formidable unit, and that England will need more than a scrum to compete.
I agree.. Australia's scrum is dangerously underestimated. It's not the most powerful but they play very smart. And their back line is used to operating while going backwards and countering that effectively.

Quote:
There are plenty of smart rugby players, hell its almost pre-requisite to take the field. It doesn't mean they're all good ones.
Shrug. Gomarsall is England's best option right now. I was simply saying his skills arent that flashy but he's smart enough to be playing at this level. He's certainly not the problem, his play has been one of the good spots for England.

Quote:
You're proving my point here. The reason I didn't mention Robinson was because I didn't expect him to play. Its hard to say that he wont be diminished in any case. But you can only then name the underwhelming Matthew Tait and cite a sevens tournament? Its clutching at straws.
Tait was named the MVP.. he's an extremely talented player. It takes time to transfer Sevens form to the XV game, although he's already showing some flashes. His problem is not his attacking ability, its defense that needs to be worked on.

Believe what you like, I dont think it's accurate to say England have no weapons at all.

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10-06-2007, 04:02 AM
  #182
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Originally Posted by clefty View Post
In which part do I say "no weapons" at all? I was really talking about the quality of the Australian defense, anyway, which is why I entitled the third point as "Defense".
Okay fair enough, you didnt say "no weapons" - that's what I read it to mean. I agree with you that the Australian defense is very good as usual and could bring them a World Cup again.

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10-06-2007, 04:04 AM
  #183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gwyddbwyll View Post
Tait was named the MVP.. he's an extremely talented player. It takes time to transfer Sevens form to the XV game, although he's already showing some flashes. His problem is not his attacking ability, its defense that needs to be worked on.
.
An MVP in 7s while we are at a 15s world cup what dont you understand about that? yeh showing some flashes against a bunch of scrub countries sure is encouraging and while I respect teams like Samoa and Tonga they are in the grand scheme of things right now a a scrub country.

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10-06-2007, 04:10 AM
  #184
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Originally Posted by Morozov View Post
Do I need to repeat your exact quote again? not my fault if you cant make things clear enough
I thought quoting something and responding to that was pretty damn clear.

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Lol please do tell me what your definition of a real rugby player is? besides you said mccaw and jack are the real stars now your saying jack isnt a star but is more of a real rugby player? make your mind up. I bet you consider Mccaw a "real rugby player" but he cheats more than anyone and just doesnt get caught, why? because thats his job and being the best in the world at getting away with cheating is what makes mccaw arguably the best player in the world[/B]
I was talking from a rugby perspective. Jack and McCaw to me are more important to the team than Collins... they are the "real" stars of the team. Jack may not be as well-known or as much of a popular figure as Collins but he is a better player to me.

McCaw's cheating on the floor is hardly the same as Collins yanking hair like that.

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10-06-2007, 04:15 AM
  #185
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Originally Posted by Morozov View Post
An MVP in 7s while we are at a 15s world cup what dont you understand about that? yeh showing some flashes against a bunch of scrub countries sure is encouraging and while I respect teams like Samoa and Tonga they are in the grand scheme of things right now a a scrub country.
Tait is pretty good when it comes to attack.. what dont you understand about that?

You should respect them more considering where so many of your players come from.

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10-06-2007, 04:17 AM
  #186
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gwyddbwyll View Post
I thought quoting something and responding to that was pretty damn clear.

Jerry Collins is about the slowest player at the world cup, you didnt say about the slower loose forward you said player, keep trying to argue this all you want but a simple change of words would have left you in the clear

I was talking from a rugby perspective. Jack and McCaw to me are more important to the team than Collins... they are the "real" stars of the team. Jack may not be as well-known or as much of a popular figure as Collins but he is a better player to me.

Jack isnt even the most talented lock we have Williams is a better player, why you think you can judge who the real stars of the New Zealand team when you obviously have no idea about them is beyond me. If you had any clue about the All Blacks team you would be saying Mccaw and Hayman are the real stars, Collins or Woodcock would be the next most valuable to the team. Stop with the bs you say they are stars, then you say they are real rugby players not stars, now your saying they are "real stars" what the hell is this rubbish. Jack may not be as well known as Collins you say? possibly by people who dont follow rugby and specifically all black rugby closely in which case they shouldnt be making judgements anyway. Collins is widely regarded as the best or second best(Burger) blindside in the world, Jack isnt the consensus best player at his position on his team.

McCaw's cheating on the floor is hardly the same as Collins yanking hair like that.

Mccaw does more than cheating on the floor, Mccaw gets into a w hole lot of crap that goes unnoticed, and ironic that Collins was yanking the hair of Smith who also is about as dirty as they come. Again you show one incident but you say he plays "illegally" in "most" games. Pretty sure that 1 example doesnt consitute "most" of Collins rugby games

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10-06-2007, 04:19 AM
  #187
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Originally Posted by Gwyddbwyll View Post
So you really believe Collins is one of the fastest flankers in the tournament? That was the point I was trying to make.. I'm not sure what isnt clear about that.
Thing is, you're not reading carefully enough and you're resorting to crazy hyperbole. I never said Collins was one of the fastest flankers, never even implied it. It is quite silly to say he is the slowest player in the tournament, however.

I said fast AND aggressive, and how you get a superior blend of loose forwards as a result. You've obviously missed it, but I was trying to name both kinds of players (aggressive players like Burger, Elsom, Collins, So'aliao, Palu; faster guys like G Smith, J SMith, McCaw, Waugh). It just so happens that some of them are both. Which is why the teams I mentioned have outstanding loose forwards, and why it gives them a significant advantage over other nations.

Opensides are faster than blindsides. Its a fact of life.


Quote:
Maybe you should watch the hair pulling video. Yeah... the poor guy was just trying to walk a fine line there. Diddums.
I was actually referring to his cleanout methods at the breakdown. And since we were actually discussing the game and not off-the-ball crap, I just assumed you were too. He's a beast on cleanouts and active at the breakdown.

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He was out on the wing and scored a try from there.. that's what that means. Certainly doesnt befit someone called a relic.
Yes it does. He's old, slow, and largely ineffective. A try against Samoa doesn't change it.

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Ahhh the old personal attack if you dont like the opinion. Classy.
Oh don't be a baby, thats not a personal attack.

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Believe what you like, I dont think it's accurate to say England have no weapons at all.
Again, you must read things properly.


Last edited by clefty: 10-06-2007 at 04:29 AM.
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10-06-2007, 04:24 AM
  #188
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clefty View Post
Thing is, you're not reading carefully enough. I never said Collins was one of the fastest flankers, never even implied it. It is quite silly to say he is the slowest player in the tournament, however.

I said fast AND aggressive. You've obviously missed it, but I was trying to name both kinds of players (aggressive players like Burger, Elsom, Collins, So'aliao, Palu; faster guys like G Smith, J SMith McCaw, Waugh). It just so happens that some of them are both.

What a coincidence, Jerry and the other 6s and 8s arent as fast as the 7s. Jerry must be slow he isnt as fast as an openside flanker. We may aswell declare the inside backs slow because they arent as fast as the wingers. This isnt a go at you Clefty just jacking your quote to help prove my point also

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10-06-2007, 04:25 AM
  #189
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Originally Posted by Gwyddbwyll View Post
Tait is pretty good when it comes to attack.. what dont you understand about that?

You should respect them more considering where so many of your players come from.
7s attack and 15s attack is not the same thing, what dont you understand about that? when Tait starts performing things against real opposition eg nz, sa, aus, then you can state he is pretty good when it comes to attack.

We have what 7 islanders altogether while Samoa alone has 12 New Zealanders? nevermind the fact that the islanders playing for NZ were brought up through New Zealand rugby programs, yeh good one but try again buddy.

Infact while NZ has 7 island born players we have a total of 47 players across ten countries who were nz born, 12 for samoa 4 for japan 3 for italy and 1 for ireland, tonga, usa, wales and ENGLAND.

Backfire much?


Last edited by Morozov: 10-06-2007 at 04:34 AM.
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10-06-2007, 04:58 AM
  #190
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Gee an explosion of activity here.

Jerry Collins has probably been one of the players of the tournament imo. Id take him over one of the English dinosaurs any day of the week. As for the dirty play? apart from maybe the hair pulling thing it's nothing that any international player hasnt done before. In fact the dirtiest thing he's done recently was take a piss on the field.

I think that NZ and Aus should emerge victorious, but i wouldnt write off an upset in either game. Especially considering the All Blacks history of play off matches in which we're heavy favourites haha.

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10-06-2007, 09:43 AM
  #191
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Wow that was a shock, now we just have to do is beat NZ and SA.
Easy.

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10-06-2007, 09:43 AM
  #192
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England 12. Australia 10.

oh snap.

I was hoping Australia would snag it with a droppy, avenge the long ago '95 wc quarter final exit at the hands of the poms.

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10-06-2007, 09:52 AM
  #193
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Well, thats the end of that. I said Australia would determine whether they won or not, and they did. Like I said, if they dropped the ball and played slow, lateral football, they would let England in with a chance. Australia did so, and paid the price.

England out enthused Australia all over the park. They maintained possession, and they took advantage of the Australians failing to contest the breakdown and turning over the ball.

I'm glad Australia dropped the ball at the end there, it was a fitting way to end their tournament. They didn't deserve to take the game at the death.

The score read 12-10, but it was far more dominant than that and clearly the best team on the day won out. Momentum was with England from whiste to whistle, if they had some more punch, they could have scored 3 or 4 tries. They should have, really.

Shame for Larkham to have to go out in a blowout against Japan. Australian fans probably wont feel the same sentiment for George Gregan, who also leaves the test arena, as he was the worst player on the field.

New Zealand will be relieved, Australia were their potential bogey side. Mind you, if thats the best the Wallabies had, NZ would have cruised to the final in any case.

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10-06-2007, 10:40 AM
  #194
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Holy **** was that Aussie front row useless.


England won because of their pack, which played like England of four years ago. They dominated the Aussie forwards which completely negated any attacking advantage in the backs. Apparently the Wallabies were taking handling advice from Ireland (and Wilko apparently got kicking tips from Ronan O'Gara).

As much as I hate England, its great to see the Northern Hemisphere get some redemption. I can only imagine all the Aussies who planned their World Cup trip around the last 4 games.

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10-06-2007, 03:48 PM
  #195
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not again

Looks like it's time to go into mourning


Last edited by CycloneLaunch: 10-06-2007 at 03:59 PM.
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10-06-2007, 04:25 PM
  #196
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That french defense was something beautiful. Allez les Bleus!

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10-06-2007, 04:27 PM
  #197
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That ref deserves to be shot.

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10-06-2007, 04:27 PM
  #198
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Well that should quell all talk about how the Six Nations can't play rugby. But that was one amazing game to watch (at least for tension).

I can't believe that France could stay so disciplined, for that long, against that pack. And as for the All Blacks, well, I guess that's what happens when everything goes wrong. A real ****** way to lose.

I thought McAllister had a very good game, he was as good as any natural centre in the world IMO. Collins and So'lialo were great, the pack was just unbelievable, not many appreciate just how tiring playing a game like that can be. The back three were rather invisible though. As for France, as I said, tackling and discipline. Their first half was awful, always kicking away posession with no real purpose, lazy running, they just looked confused. In the second half, the couple breaks they had, they played French rugby and they showed just how dangerous they can be.


Now I've got to go give a hard time to all the Kiwis at my rugby club.

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10-06-2007, 04:28 PM
  #199
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Morozov View Post
That ref deserves to be shot.
That was the best ref'd game I've seen all tournament.

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10-06-2007, 04:31 PM
  #200
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Well, great to see that everyone on this board had NZ already in the semis.
Looks like the North isn't dead yet.

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