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Old
12-23-2003, 06:06 AM
  #26
blueblood1617
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dragonwyck
So you're saying it's impossible to win the Stanley Cup without either two elite centers or Martin Brodeur?
Anything is possible.... Let's look at history for a minute and see how likely...

2002/03 - Devils - Brodeur
2001/02 - Red Wings - Hasek + Federov + Yzerman
2000/01 - Avs - Roy + Sakic + Forsberg
1999/00 - Devils - Brodeur
1998/99 - Stars - Belfour + Modano + Nieuwendyk
1997/98 - Red Wings - Osgood + Federov + Yzerman
1996/97 - Red Wings - Osgood + Federov + Yzerman
1995/96 - Avs - Roy + Sakic + Forsberg
1994/95 - Devils - Brodeur
1993/94 - Rangers - Richter + Messier + MacTavish ***
1992/93 - Canadiens - Roy + Savard + Carbonneau
1991/92 - Penguins - Barrasso + Lemieux + Francis (Jagr)
1990/91 - Penguins - Barrasso + Lemieux + Francis (Jagr)
1989/90 - Oilers - Fuhr + Messier
1988/89 - Flames - Vernon + Gilmour + Nieuwendyk + Hrdina
1987/88 - Oilers - Fuhr + Gretzky + Messier + Mactavish
1986/87 - Oilers - Fuhr + Gretzky + Messier + Mactavish
1985/86 - Canadiens - Roy + Carbonneau
1984/85 - Oilers - Fuhr + Gretzky + Messier + Mactavish
1983/84 - Oilers - Fuhr + Gretzky + Messier + Mactavish

*** The Moose alone was enough to win this cup.

Pretty much every team that has won in the last 20 years has had a good goalie and two big centers. Exceptions include the Canadiens (Roy is the best ever), and the Devils. Some argue that Lemieux is the best player ever (I don't agree), and there was a time when Barrasso was amazing (unlike last year). The playoffs are a war of attrition, you need to have depth, and a good goalie.

This is not an attack at anyone, I'm just offering up what I think it takes to win the cup... I don't even know if there will be hockey next year, I'm not going to jump in and say that we need to worry about trading Demitra or Tkachuk or Weight or Pronger...

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Old
12-23-2003, 06:20 AM
  #27
dragonwyck
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I guess that answers that question... if the Blues do have to get rid of one of their high dollar players then Pronger must go.

 
Old
12-23-2003, 09:22 AM
  #28
blueblood1617
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dragonwyck
I guess that answers that question... if the Blues do have to get rid of one of their high dollar players then Pronger must go.
As much as I hate to say it. I would get rid of Prongs before Demitra. As good as he is, we do well without him, and with the up and comers (Jackman, Backman, etc), we should be fine. I hope it doesn't come to this though.

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12-23-2003, 02:52 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by blueblood1617
As much as I hate to say it. I would get rid of Prongs before Demitra. As good as he is, we do well without him, and with the up and comers (Jackman, Backman, etc), we should be fine. I hope it doesn't come to this though.
You guys are crazy, any big name player on the team goes before Pronger. You build from the goal out and he is the best D-man in hockey end of discussion.

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Old
12-23-2003, 03:16 PM
  #30
SneakerPimp82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blueblood1617
Anything is possible.... Let's look at history for a minute and see how likely...

2002/03 - Devils - Brodeur
2001/02 - Red Wings - Hasek + Federov + Yzerman
2000/01 - Avs - Roy + Sakic + Forsberg
1999/00 - Devils - Brodeur
1998/99 - Stars - Belfour + Modano + Nieuwendyk
1997/98 - Red Wings - Osgood + Federov + Yzerman
1996/97 - Red Wings - Osgood + Federov + Yzerman
1995/96 - Avs - Roy + Sakic + Forsberg
1994/95 - Devils - Brodeur
1993/94 - Rangers - Richter + Messier + MacTavish ***
1992/93 - Canadiens - Roy + Savard + Carbonneau
1991/92 - Penguins - Barrasso + Lemieux + Francis (Jagr)
1990/91 - Penguins - Barrasso + Lemieux + Francis (Jagr)
1989/90 - Oilers - Fuhr + Messier
1988/89 - Flames - Vernon + Gilmour + Nieuwendyk + Hrdina
1987/88 - Oilers - Fuhr + Gretzky + Messier + Mactavish
1986/87 - Oilers - Fuhr + Gretzky + Messier + Mactavish
1985/86 - Canadiens - Roy + Carbonneau
1984/85 - Oilers - Fuhr + Gretzky + Messier + Mactavish
1983/84 - Oilers - Fuhr + Gretzky + Messier + Mactavish

*** The Moose alone was enough to win this cup.

Pretty much every team that has won in the last 20 years has had a good goalie and two big centers. Exceptions include the Canadiens (Roy is the best ever), and the Devils. Some argue that Lemieux is the best player ever (I don't agree), and there was a time when Barrasso was amazing (unlike last year). The playoffs are a war of attrition, you need to have depth, and a good goalie.

This is not an attack at anyone, I'm just offering up what I think it takes to win the cup... I don't even know if there will be hockey next year, I'm not going to jump in and say that we need to worry about trading Demitra or Tkachuk or Weight or Pronger...
Not to mention, on the Devils Cup teams pre-2002 they had very good offense as well, it wasn't just Brodeur. Elias, Arnott and Sykora made a formidable top line(and combined for the Cup winning goal against Dallas in 99-00), not to mention Brylin, Gomez, Madden. I remember they led the league or were top 5 in GF as a team 3 or 4 years ago.

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Old
12-23-2003, 03:18 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by c-carp
You guys are crazy, any big name player on the team goes before Pronger. You build from the goal out and he is the best D-man in hockey end of discussion.
Tkachuk gets my vote.

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12-23-2003, 03:20 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dragonwyck
So you're saying it's impossible to win the Stanley Cup without either two elite centers or Martin Brodeur?
Also helps to play a system to offensively stifling that your goalie is on pace to double the single season shutout record.

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Old
12-25-2003, 04:56 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by c-carp
You guys are crazy, any big name player on the team goes before Pronger. You build from the goal out and he is the best D-man in hockey end of discussion.
I completely agree.

Pronger, then demitra, then tkachuk, then weight as afar as top dollar players go.

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Old
12-25-2003, 11:38 PM
  #34
c-carp
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Originally Posted by SneakerPimp82
Tkachuk gets my vote.
Demitra would get mine, but hopefully we can find a way to keep them all.

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12-26-2003, 07:56 AM
  #35
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Unfortunately, I think my original point has completely escaped most everyone.

First of all, Demitra is by far my favorite player on this team and I have been defending him for the past 4 years. It's unfortunate that when you suggest trading or getting rid of someone on a message board, even when for monetary reasons people read into it too much.

Obviously it would be ideal to keep all 4. But, as I have said I just think that one thing or another will prevent that. Obviously, I hope and would love to be wrong.

That said... my reasoning behind Demitra is really quite simple. There is no current player on the roster that comes close to replacing what Chris Pronger brings. There is no current player on the roster that comes close to replacing what Keith Tkachuk brings. There is no current player on the roster that comes close to replacing what Doug Weight brings. However, Cajanek is a European center with good offensive skill and if he were in Demitra's position he MAY be able to produce a good number of points. He is the only player in the organization that may be ready and able to step it up to the next level. And, he's cheap. And, Demitra would bring you the most back in a trade. Note that I never once suggested letting him walk by not qualifying him.

 
Old
12-28-2003, 06:55 AM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dragonwyck


It's comments like these that make me ask myself why I waste my time trying to have an intelligent conversation online. There is simply way too many people like you that when they have no response to something they decide to try to turn it around into an insult.
I wish I had had the time to respond to your nonsense earlier, but I didn't. I chuckle that you think your point is hard to grasp or that you seemingly believe you have "won" the argument. What you lack in tact you surely make up for with ego eh?

As someone else mentioned, where's the insult? I pointed out, in all of one sentence, that there is no argument to be made on your part because your entire "Blues can't keep Demitra" is based on your own personal speculation of some future timeframe where the CBA isn't even known, let alone what salary the Blues can have. What is the point of arguing that whatsoever?

Same thing with Cajanek; I've stated your point was made, but that I didn't agree with it. I don't see Cajanek being an effective replacement for Demitra and just because he's cheap and shares the same ethnic background as Demitra doesn't convince me that he will be either. I broke it down for you in terms of on-ice performance and you chose to ignore that for the most part. That's all there is to go on; your future scenarios are just that, future scenarios. Presently, Demitra's game is a long way ahead of Cajanek's and it shows. If Cajanek had to center one of the top two lines because Demitra had to go, I don't think he could do anywhere near as good a job as Demitra has in turning grinders with average hands into capable offensive players like Demitra has over the years. I don't think it's something Cajanek could do. Cajanek would probably fit in well with some real offensive talents on his line, but if the Blues trade Demitra because of fiscal reasons, it's highly unlikely the Blues can afford any other proven offensive talents to play with Cajanek anyway. I don't share your optimism that Cajanek can do the job if he has to play with average offensive players in a more pure offensive role.

And then there's the extra somewhat relevant example that helps make my point. Sejna was supposed to help replace some of the lost production of Stillman and Rucinsky too and that sure worked out eh? Point is that replacing a player on paper is much easier than actually replacing what they do in a game and that is the point that you can't seem to accept.

Twas a nice little fit you threw BTW; good show.

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Old
12-28-2003, 07:42 AM
  #37
dragonwyck
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Originally Posted by Laperriere22
I pointed out, in all of one sentence, that there is no argument to be made on your part because your entire "Blues can't keep Demitra" is based on your own personal speculation of some future timeframe where the CBA isn't even known, let alone what salary the Blues can have. What is the point of arguing that whatsoever?
What's the point of arguing it?

Execwrite said that the Blues need to get Demitra signed up to a long term deal. That's really easy to say and yea we'd all love that, but the reality of it is that financially it MAY not be possible and it MAY not happen.

That was the point of discussing it and if you don't want to discuss it then quit replying to my posts. It really is THAT simply.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Laperriere22
Same thing with Cajanek; I've stated your point was made, but that I didn't agree with it. I don't see Cajanek being an effective replacement for Demitra and just because he's cheap and shares the same ethnic background as Demitra doesn't convince me that he will be either. I broke it down for you in terms of on-ice performance and you chose to ignore that for the most part. That's all there is to go on; your future scenarios are just that, future scenarios. Presently, Demitra's game is a long way ahead of Cajanek's and it shows. If Cajanek had to center one of the top two lines because Demitra had to go, I don't think he could do anywhere near as good a job as Demitra has in turning grinders with average hands into capable offensive players like Demitra has over the years. I don't think it's something Cajanek could do. Cajanek would probably fit in well with some real offensive talents on his line, but if the Blues trade Demitra because of fiscal reasons, it's highly unlikely the Blues can afford any other proven offensive talents to play with Cajanek anyway. I don't share your optimism that Cajanek can do the job if he has to play with average offensive players in a more pure offensive role.
Good for you.

You don't think Cajanek would be effective on a top two line.

I do.

End of story.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Laperriere22
And then there's the extra somewhat relevant example that helps make my point. Sejna was supposed to help replace some of the lost production of Stillman and Rucinsky too and that sure worked out eh? Point is that replacing a player on paper is much easier than actually replacing what they do in a game and that is the point that you can't seem to accept.
If you, like others on this board, are going to base a philosophy on one instance, then yes Sejna would be relevent.

Fortunately, I don't do that and therefore Sejna is as irrelevent as any one example I show you where a player was able to step up into a bigger roll and succeed.

All I know is that I sure am glad that the Blues decided to give Pavol Demitra a chance to shine after they let Brett Hull walk.

 
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