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Booms and Busts: The Trade Deadline in Review

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Old
04-22-2007, 01:13 AM
  #26
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Originally Posted by nomorekids View Post
To call Peter Forsberg a bust is downright silly. Look at the Predators board, most are still happy that we made the deal, even if it didn't end up mattering. He was one of three Predators(along with Dumont and Weber) that showed up to play EVERY NIGHT. He showed heart that "stars" like Kariya and Arnott were frustratingly devoid of.

The question was recently asked, 'if you could ahve Kariya for 82 games next season or re-sign Forsberg and get 45 games out of him, " it was summarily agreed that we'd take Forsberg. So he wasn't PPG...well, it's tough when you've got guys like Vernon Fiddler and even Jerred Smithson flubbing your passes that could otherwise be sure goals. Blame Trotz and his ridiculous lines\lack of adaptability or strategy for that.

In my eyes Forsberg was a bust for Nashville. I remember the day the trade was made, Predators' fans (including yourself) were already awarding the Stanley Cup in February:

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THe Preds were seriously overmatched in last years series vs the Sharks, and this year...I don't see them being overmatched against anyone.
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that's my next point.

go ahead, shadow foppa with pronger and niedermayer.

meanwhile, kariya and sullivan are skating circles and firing trick shots into the net.
Even with Forsberg, they were overmatched by the Sharks yet again. The Sharks' defense, which does not have a Pronger or Niedermayer, did a great job preventing Kariya and Sullivan from "skating circles and firing trick shots into the net."

Forsberg was supposed to come in and produce, as well as provide other players more time and space with the puck since he'd be the focus of attention. In all honesty, he did not make them any better than they were before they acquired him. The Cup was a lofty goal, but that team should have been able to win more than a game. Trading Upshall, Parent, a 1st and a 3rd for 1 playoff victory can certainly be classified as a bust.

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04-22-2007, 01:34 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by lazycrazycanuck View Post
Without Smyth the NYI don't make the playoffs
so he is a boom

price is not as steep as some say

O'Meara can't stay healthy

Nillson has more questions then answers

and it is a bad draft year
I agree, frankly. It hurt at the time, but that was more on a psychological level. The truth is, O'Marra hadn't done much to differentiate himself from a number of similar hard working physical 2way C/RW prospects in the Isles system (Okposo, Nokelainen, Colliton, Comeau and Marcinko), and like you say, his injury problems were of concern. Nilsson had been passed by Tambellini on the depth chart for immediate help (not to mention Bergenheim's excellent season in Sweden) and took all of about 3 days to find himself in Nolan's doghouse. Looking over the draft this year, the pickings around pick 15 look pretty slim. It sounds bad, 3 first rounders for a first round exit, but in the end, the Isles have stockpiled a lot of similar prospects and could afford it.

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04-22-2007, 01:41 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Draft Guru View Post
In my eyes Forsberg was a bust for Nashville. I remember the day the trade was made, Predators' fans (including yourself) were already awarding the Stanley Cup in February:





Even with Forsberg, they were overmatched by the Sharks yet again. The Sharks' defense, which does not have a Pronger or Niedermayer, did a great job preventing Kariya and Sullivan from "skating circles and firing trick shots into the net."

Forsberg was supposed to come in and produce, as well as provide other players more time and space with the puck since he'd be the focus of attention. In all honesty, he did not make them any better than they were before they acquired him. The Cup was a lofty goal, but that team should have been able to win more than a game. Trading Upshall, Parent, a 1st and a 3rd for 1 playoff victory can certainly be classified as a bust.
I never said we'd win the cup, or were even THE favorite. Forsberg did what I thought he would do...but I didn't count on a couple of things..

Sullivan(our very best player, for 3 years now...and the heart and soul of the team) missing the entire playoffs and most of the end of the year

Erat(our first line RW) missing most of the end of the year and playing hurt in the playoffs...only to reaggravate his injury to the point of not being able to play, again

Kariya going absolutely ice cold for the entire month of march and most of all in the playoffs

Forsberg kept up his end of the bargain. What he did for Radulov alone was awesome.

I just never counted on him having to center Vernon Fiddler or Jerred Smithson. Had I known that at the time...I likely wouldn't have been as confident. We made a trade that we had to make as much for ourselves as to keep him from going to DET\SJ\ANA...and I still think he was worth the cost...more so if he re-signs.

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04-22-2007, 02:04 AM
  #29
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I disagree with that completely. As was said, the Islanders were in 6th around the deadline and only wound up scraping their way in because DiPietro got hurt. Smyth didn't really have any sort of impact, positive or negative, I don't think. Definite bust (but not of Forsberg/Tkachuk proportions).
In all honesty it's hard to rate this trade for the Islanders at this point. You have to remember the Islanders are a team with a bad reputation around the league(The Hockey News had a poll and alot of players said it's one of the last places they want to play) and terrible attendence. I think the true judge of how this trade helped us long term will be July 1 and increase in season tickets.

It's not even a case we have to resign Smyth, if that trade puts Islanders as a place that players might look into signing with, it's a big win for the Islanders.

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04-22-2007, 02:11 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by hototogisu View Post
I disagree with that completely. As was said, the Islanders were in 6th around the deadline and only wound up scraping their way in because DiPietro got hurt. Smyth didn't really have any sort of impact, positive or negative, I don't think. Definite bust (but not of Forsberg/Tkachuk proportions).
I disagree. The DP injury and Simon injury combined to take the wind out of the sails of the Isles. Smyth was pretty much the only thing that allowed us to keep it together enough to sneak in.

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04-22-2007, 04:15 AM
  #31
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Sopel - freakin' bust. A 2nd AND a 4th given up in exchange, geez. Gives away the puck regularly, and us Canucks fans have heart attacks everytime he has the puck.

Best deadline deal goes to Pittsburgh though for getting Gary Roberts, even though the Pens didn't get past the first round. Roberts was the veteran prescence they needed, and it wasn't enough, but at least they weren't completely swept away. I think Don Cherry showed a clip of the pre-game skate, and Roberts saw that Malone was feeling kinda bad that he was put on the fourth line, so he went over and cheered the guy up. Class act.

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04-22-2007, 05:18 AM
  #32
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Atlanta giving up their entire future for Tkachuk and Zhitnik has to be the most laughable of them all.
Then to just get destroyed in 4 games by the Rangers. You almost have to wonder if it was on purpose... for some reason.

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04-22-2007, 07:38 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Draft Guru View Post
Forsberg was supposed to come in and produce, as well as provide other players more time and space with the puck since he'd be the focus of attention. In all honesty, he did not make them any better than they were before they acquired him. The Cup was a lofty goal, but that team should have been able to win more than a game. Trading Upshall, Parent, a 1st and a 3rd for 1 playoff victory can certainly be classified as a bust.
That can definitely be classified as a bust (the trade compared to what the Preds achieved in the playoffs) but Forsberg's performance can't be called a bust. Though we can say that Kariya was a disappointment and that the coaching was a first class bust.

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04-22-2007, 07:50 AM
  #34
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In my eyes Forsberg was a bust for Nashville. I remember the day the trade was made, Predators' fans (including yourself) were already awarding the Stanley Cup in February:
LOL, didn't work out that way at all, did it? I remember numerous people guaranteeing the Preds would win the Cup once they got Forsberg.

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04-22-2007, 08:15 AM
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People are getting confused here. The trades of Smyth, Forsberg, Zhitnik and Tkachuk were all busts because of 1st round flame outs.

The performance of Forsberg and Smyth did not make them busts (dont know about the Thrasher players as I didnt see enough of them) as they both did pretty well.

You can have the trade being a bust without the player being a bust.

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04-22-2007, 09:03 AM
  #36
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Tkachuk led the Thrashers in +/- vs. the Rangers, and had a role in 50% of all Thrashers goals in the series.

In addition, he was around a point/game player down the stretch...helping the Thrashers even make the playoffs in the first place.

Based on what they paid, I have no problem saying he was a "bust"....but lets not take shots at Tkachuk because he was terrific for the Thrashers down the stretch, and without question one of their best players in the playoffs.

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04-22-2007, 09:08 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Steve L View Post
People are getting confused here. The trades of Smyth, Forsberg, Zhitnik and Tkachuk were all busts because of 1st round flame outs.

The performance of Forsberg and Smyth did not make them busts (dont know about the Thrasher players as I didnt see enough of them) as they both did pretty well.

You can have the trade being a bust without the player being a bust.
Exactly, because teams make deadline deals like that to ensure that they make a deep playoff run. These players are supposed to be difference makers.

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04-22-2007, 12:35 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by nomorekids View Post
To call Peter Forsberg a bust is downright silly. Look at the Predators board, most are still happy that we made the deal, even if it didn't end up mattering. He was one of three Predators(along with Dumont and Weber) that showed up to play EVERY NIGHT. He showed heart that "stars" like Kariya and Arnott were frustratingly devoid of.

The question was recently asked, 'if you could ahve Kariya for 82 games next season or re-sign Forsberg and get 45 games out of him, " it was summarily agreed that we'd take Forsberg. So he wasn't PPG...well, it's tough when you've got guys like Vernon Fiddler and even Jerred Smithson flubbing your passes that could otherwise be sure goals. Blame Trotz and his ridiculous lines\lack of adaptability or strategy for that.
Like I said, for me, part of the equation is what you gave up for him. He showed up in the playoffs, sure, but he didn't take you guys past the first round, and if he doesn't re-sign next season, the Preds sure lost a whole lot for naught.


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04-22-2007, 01:42 PM
  #39
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You can call Tkachuk a bust, but he was 1-2-3 in the playoffs and a +2. All of those tied for the team lead with Pascal Dupuis, and Tkachuk was never on the ice for a goal against. He was hardly the cause of the Thrashers getting swept - Kozlov, Belanger, and Hossa each going -6 with 2 combined assists (Belanger 1, Hossa 1) was a huge part of it, though.

I'll contrast that with Bill Guerin in San Jose. You know ... the guy that scored 36 goals this year? So far in the playoffs, he's 0-2-2 in 5 games and has largely been a non-factor.

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04-22-2007, 01:57 PM
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You can call Tkachuk a bust, but he was 1-2-3 in the playoffs and a +2. All of those tied for the team lead with Pascal Dupuis, and Tkachuk was never on the ice for a goal against. He was hardly the cause of the Thrashers getting swept - Kozlov, Belanger, and Hossa each going -6 with 2 combined assists (Belanger 1, Hossa 1) was a huge part of it, though.

I'll contrast that with Bill Guerin in San Jose. You know ... the guy that scored 36 goals this year? So far in the playoffs, he's 0-2-2 in 5 games and has largely been a non-factor.
Where guerins true asset lies with the sharks is in the locker room and the on ice leadership he brings to a very young team. He's our oldest player and the only one with a cup. Even if he doesnt score, the team has plenty of other weapons to get the job done, but he needs to be there to calm the overexcited rookies like pavelski. Rivet has done the same thing with Carle, completly put the kid in a comfort zone and he has played great if not spectacular defensively.

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04-22-2007, 03:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Steve L View Post
People are getting confused here. The trades of Smyth, Forsberg, Zhitnik and Tkachuk were all busts because of 1st round flame outs.

The performance of Forsberg and Smyth did not make them busts (dont know about the Thrasher players as I didnt see enough of them) as they both did pretty well.

You can have the trade being a bust without the player being a bust.
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Originally Posted by The_Human_Atombomb View Post
Exactly, because teams make deadline deals like that to ensure that they make a deep playoff run. These players are supposed to be difference makers.


so in essence you both are asserting the Last Man Standing concept?

por ejemplo, say the Anaheim Ducks win the Stanley Cup... by your charge then, the ONLY non-bust of the deadline would be their acquisition of Brad May?

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04-22-2007, 04:05 PM
  #42
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04-22-2007, 04:51 PM
  #43
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Where guerins true asset lies with the sharks is in the locker room and the on ice leadership he brings to a very young team. He's our oldest player and the only one with a cup. Even if he doesnt score, the team has plenty of other weapons to get the job done, but he needs to be there to calm the overexcited rookies like pavelski. Rivet has done the same thing with Carle, completly put the kid in a comfort zone and he has played great if not spectacular defensively.
Yeah .... somehow I don't think the Sharks dealt just to get his on-ice leadership, and somehow I think that if they don't win the Cup and Billy has 1 goal in 11 games after scoring 36 in the regular season, Sharks fans will be raving about his on-ice leadership.

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04-22-2007, 05:46 PM
  #44
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so in essence you both are asserting the Last Man Standing concept?

por ejemplo, say the Anaheim Ducks win the Stanley Cup... by your charge then, the ONLY non-bust of the deadline would be their acquisition of Brad May?
No, but it's more than a numbers game. At least when I look at it. I consider what was given up for the player, his performance, and how it's affected the team.

Certain players might not put up great numbers, but they can change the way a team plays. Likewise, just because someone puts up better numbers than _____ player, that doesn't prove their worth.

San Jose traded OK prospects and a pick for Guerin. Atlanta traded 3 picks and a solid prospect for Tkachuk. If Guerin doesn't re-sign with San Jose, no big deal. They still have a solid base, and a lot of pieces to work with in the future(prospects, trading pieces, or picks). Even if Tkachuk re-signs in Atlanta, I'd still say they gave up too much of their future for him. At least, Atlanta could have used those pieces to get someone better than Tkachuk that will affect, and improve, their team for a much longer time. They got swept with Tkachuk... even if he's still on the team next year, are they going to be that much better?

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04-22-2007, 09:41 PM
  #45
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As the first round draws to an end, it's a good time to take a look back at the trade deadline. I'll start it off with a couple in each category:

BOOMS:

Danius Zubrus - Overpayment they screamed! Zubrus took a little while to mesh with the Sabres, but is now a physical and scoring force that complements Chris Drury nicely. He is tied for the Sabres lead in playoff points with 5. Another smart and relatively cheap pickup for Darcy Regier.
Zubrus is a good hockey player....real big and fast, and more skill than he can often handle. Even when not producing on the stat sheet he is much more often than not, doing all the little things that you want to see players do.....and doing it effectively. At his age he's bound to have a couple pretty big seasons, where things just go in and he stays healthy. Good hockey player and brings his game to the post season. I would have been surprised if he wasnt doing at least "good" right now

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04-22-2007, 09:51 PM
  #46
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I think one of the biggest steals of the season was Atlanta aquiring Eric Belanger for Vitaly Vishnevski. Belanger was their best center down the stretch, and definately one of the major reasons they made the playoffs, and Vishnevski had been sitting in the pressbox for about 2 weeks prior to the trade.

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04-22-2007, 09:58 PM
  #47
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To call Peter Forsberg a bust is downright silly. Look at the Predators board, most are still happy that we made the deal, even if it didn't end up mattering. He was one of three Predators(along with Dumont and Weber) that showed up to play EVERY NIGHT. He showed heart that "stars" like Kariya and Arnott were frustratingly devoid of.

The question was recently asked, 'if you could ahve Kariya for 82 games next season or re-sign Forsberg and get 45 games out of him, " it was summarily agreed that we'd take Forsberg. So he wasn't PPG...well, it's tough when you've got guys like Vernon Fiddler and even Jerred Smithson flubbing your passes that could otherwise be sure goals. Blame Trotz and his ridiculous lines\lack of adaptability or strategy for that.
It was a bust in the macro sense. I agree that Forsberg himself was good, however it means nothing to the Nashville Predators as there goal is playoff success not Forsberg individual performance. It was a bust because the Predators had no more success then they would have had and they had to give up some valuable assets.

I would agree that it was a good gamble to take - and at the time, a good trade to make - but that said, it was still a bust. You have to measure trades by success of the team, and just the individual.

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04-22-2007, 10:13 PM
  #48
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I detest this flawed thinking that someone is either a boom or a bust. Only one team can win the Stanley Cup, and when you look at a series like San Jose vs. Nashville, one of them has to win and one has to lose. So what? To some fans that means, if Nashville loses, Forsberg was a bust. If San Jose loses, Bill Guerin was a bust.

It's very much like the Playoff Performer/Playoff Choker thing. Again, someone has to win, someone has to lose... Except, in the playoffs 15 teams have to lose. Anyway, I kind of hope San Jose makes it far, because I get so annoyed when I hear people who don't know anything about hockey say things like "Joe Thornton is a choker".

Someone has to win, someone has to lose.

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04-23-2007, 12:14 AM
  #49
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Forsberg was not a bust ....

I think it's important to look at the intangibles. Forsberg brough a new energy and DIRECTLY impacted ticket sales for the last few months of the season. From a business/marketing/buzz standpoint, Forsberg provided a ton of value to Nashville.

He also helped develop Radulov, and statiscally, was at least above-average while with the Preds.

I make that trade every day of the week b/c of the buzz factor .... especially given the circumstances surrounding Nashville's franchise.

Also, I think there's still a pretty decent liklihood that we resign him ... which would be FANTASTIC for Radulov et al.

-Tom


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04-23-2007, 08:13 AM
  #50
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I will withhold judgement on that trade until we see if Upshall was for real, Upshall pretty much outplayed Forsberg after the trade.

If Upshall just needed an opportunity and breaks out next year with the Flyers this could look like a really bad deal for Nashville.

But we have seen plenty of times, players going to teams out of the playoffs at the deadline and doing really well (In no pressure situations), then crashing back to Earth the next season.

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