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What Happened to the Jarmo Contract Extension?

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Old
04-23-2007, 01:37 PM
  #1
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What Happened to the Jarmo Contract Extension?

that was supposed to be have occurred by now?

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04-23-2007, 02:20 PM
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Trust me ... it's taken care of.

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04-23-2007, 02:44 PM
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it'll be announced the same day they sign Aaltonen, I'm sure

j/k I trust you, IB

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04-23-2007, 05:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Irish Blues View Post
Trust me ... it's taken care of.

Thank God!

Irish, any chance he is promoted shortly to GM??

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04-23-2007, 05:40 PM
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I know I'm probably in the minority on this one, but I really like and respect the job that Larry Pleau has done here, especially this year in the face of some serious family issues. The guy gets blasted for basically following the orders of a half-brained owner and his no-brained sidekick and gets no credit now for following the orders of and working with JD. The fans have booed Larry, demanded his dismissal, and he has worked with JD to help ease him into the finer points of how to general manage a hockey team and have formed a pretty effective duo if you look at what they've accomplished together. Furthermore, if you look at the praise he has recieved from no-nonsense guys like JD and other GMs around the league, I think it shows that the guy is all class and far more savvy than given credit for. Really, it's amazing that he isn't bitter after being scapegoated during the last regime and overshadowed during this one. If he is getting ready to step down, leaving the seat to Jarmo and allowing himself to spend more time with his family, I want to say thank you to Larry Pleau.

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04-23-2007, 05:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Checker
I know I'm probably in the minority on this one, but I really like and respect the job that Larry Pleau has done here, especially this year in the face of some serious family issues.

The guy gets blasted for basically following the orders of a half-brained owner and his no-brained sidekick and gets no credit now for following the orders of and working with JD. The fans have booed Larry, demanded his dismissal, and he has worked with JD to help ease him into the finer points of how to general manage a hockey team and have formed a pretty effective duo if you look at what they've accomplished together.

Furthermore, if you look at the praise he has recieved from no-nonsense guys like JD and other GMs around the league, I think it shows that the guy is all class and far more savvy than given credit for.

Really, it's amazing that he isn't bitter after being scapegoated during the last regime and overshadowed during this one. If he is getting ready to step down, leaving the seat to Jarmo and allowing himself to spend more time with his family, I want to say thank you to Larry Pleau.
My sentiments exactly, Checker...

Well said.



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04-23-2007, 06:23 PM
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Originally Posted by TrustInJarmo View Post
Thank God!

Irish, any chance he is promoted shortly to GM??
Nothing is planned at the moment (read: nothing is imminent by any means) ... but of course, things can change on a moment's notice - good or bad.

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04-23-2007, 07:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Prussian_Blue View Post
My sentiments exactly, Checker...




P_B

I've always felt that even tho Pleau was probably not an "elite" GM, he was "solid", and was made the scapegoat for everything under the sun.
Davidson himself recently made a statement about how that he was amazed at the job Pleau had done, considering some of the circumstances he had to deal with, things that most people knew nothing about.

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04-23-2007, 08:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Irish Blues View Post
Nothing is planned at the moment (read: nothing is imminent by any means) ... but of course, things can change on a moment's notice - good or bad.
things can change on a moment's notice? with Jarmo? what do you mean? I thought he wasn't going anywhere.

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04-23-2007, 08:25 PM
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things can change on a moment's notice? with Jarmo? what do you mean? I thought he wasn't going anywhere.
I think he's referring more towards Pleau with this statement.

Pleau spent most of the year on limited duty on account of his wife's struggle with cancer. If something were to happen to her it might force Pleau to give up his duties as GM(retire/quit). In that scenario our Assistant Gm(Sir Jarmo) would take over as GM at least on a temporary basis.

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04-23-2007, 08:27 PM
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I answered this via PM. To paraphrase, "YOU NEVER KNOW IN THIS BUSINESS."

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04-23-2007, 09:09 PM
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I answered this via PM. To paraphrase, "YOU NEVER KNOW IN THIS BUSINESS."
Absolutely

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04-24-2007, 12:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Checker View Post
I know I'm probably in the minority on this one, but I really like and respect the job that Larry Pleau has done here, especially this year in the face of some serious family issues. The guy gets blasted for basically following the orders of a half-brained owner and his no-brained sidekick and gets no credit now for following the orders of and working with JD. The fans have booed Larry, demanded his dismissal, and he has worked with JD to help ease him into the finer points of how to general manage a hockey team and have formed a pretty effective duo if you look at what they've accomplished together. Furthermore, if you look at the praise he has recieved from no-nonsense guys like JD and other GMs around the league, I think it shows that the guy is all class and far more savvy than given credit for. Really, it's amazing that he isn't bitter after being scapegoated during the last regime and overshadowed during this one. If he is getting ready to step down, leaving the seat to Jarmo and allowing himself to spend more time with his family, I want to say thank you to Larry Pleau.
"Thank you to Larry Pleau"??? Are you kidding me?

I'm sorry. This is insane.

This is the same guy that was part of the problem for the Blues downfall from 97 to 2006!!

This is the same guy that let a Hall Of Famer walk as a Free agent in 1998!! Could be called one of the stupidest moves in franchise history. But yet Keenan is last straw by ownership is trying to trade Hull a year and a half earlier to Washington for Bondra and Gonchar! Yeah, great call Blues fans and owners. Yet, Larry is getting "thank yous" from St Louis fans for ****ing up this team!! What a joke!

Did you forget how he let Demitra walk for NOTHING. Or how he let so many other dozens of players walk for nothing at the deadline!!

How about the great Keith Tkachoke trade?? Or WORSE, giving Keith 10 Million and 11 Million A YEAR!!! Yes, Thank you Larry.

Lar only looks good now because Davidson and Jarmo are calling the shots. And if you don't believe that...your in the Nile River.

Yes, Larry had to trade Pronger (because Laurie is as stupid as his daughter that cheats in college). But to ONLY get what he got back in return for Pronger is so sad and almost as bad as letting Hull walk! And we see how good Pronger is under different coaches. Speaking of Quenneville, what a joke that this guy was here for almost 8 seasons!! Thanks for keeping that gem here so long Pleau.

If you are going to thank Larry Pleau, than you should bow down to Mike Keenan!


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04-24-2007, 01:00 PM
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I'll take the counterargument here (in no particular order, and by no means a complete list - I'll get to that later. ):

1. Demitra - are we talking about the the Pavol Demitra who was making $6.5 million and could have gone to arbitration and won $8.5 million despite (A) going silent as the Blues blew a 3-1 lead in the '03 playoffs, then meekly going 1-0-1 in 5 games in the 2004 playoffs? He was a nice regular season player (when he wasn't missing time due to an ingrown hair), but c'mon ... he was virtually guaranteed to get an obscene contract in arbitration; with the lockout looming and Pavol's playoff disappearing act wearing thin, he wasn't worth what he was likely going to get.

2. I and others have hashed out the Pronger trade elsewhere; Pleau didn't get to orchestrate the Pronger deal - that one was hashed out above him, then given to him with orders to sign off. And yes ... no one wanted Pronger to leave - but again, that decision was orchestrated from above, and it was made before the lockout ever started.

3. "he let so many other dozens of players walk for nothing at the deadline" - such as .... ? Pierre Turgeon? Yep, that was a "big loss", Turgeon (and later Scott Young) only went on to sign huge contracts with Dallas and chronically underachieve there (with Turgeon getting bought out after the lockout ended). Alexander Khavanov? Seriously, aside from Demitra, Turgeon, Young, and Hull (who I'll cover shortly), who are all of these "dozens of players" Pleau let walk for nothing, much less were guys who went on to major success elsewhere?

4. Ah, the Golden Brat. Remember, this is the same guy Keenan had traded to Washington before ownership nixed it. This is the same guy who challenged Quenneville and then was miffed because management (not just Pleau) backed the coach. This is the same guy who openly complained that the team was stifling him b/c he was supposed to score goals, not play defense. (This is also the same guy who later admitted he didn't play defense because no one made him, that he would have never won a Cup in St. Louis as a result, and that Ken Hitchcock's threat to "let him rot in the press box" helped make him a 2-way player and more effective for the playoffs.)

This is also the same guy who, after finishing up with Dallas, proclaimed his love for St. Louis and wanted to finish his career here. (He also said the same about Chicago, Montreal, and a couple other cities before settling on Detroit.) That 1998 team he was on? That was the team that went 45-29-8 and finished 4th in the West; at the trade deadline, they were 36-26-8 and in 4th. People thought maybe the team had a shot at the Cup - do you really think that the team was going to trade Hull at that point?

Now ... should he have been brought back? Yeah, we could have - and we still wouldn't have won the Cup b/c Hull very likely still wouldn't have been playing 2-way hockey unless Quenneville had threatened to let him rot in the press box until he got the message. Was Quenneville really going to do that, because Hull wasn't volunteering to do it himself?

Yes, Pleau has made mistakes - but remember, Laurie was the one who opened up the checkbook and screamed, "BUY, BUY, BUY!" And I think people underestimate how much Dick Thomas had his hand in the cookie jar with some of the decisions that were made [most notably, Pleau's deal to get Hasek before the 2001-02 season which was nixed by Thomas b/c he didn't want to give Hasek $10 million per year] ... but Pleau is the GM, and as a result he's everyone's fall guy. And that's fine ... but make sure you have all the facts and put everything in perspective.

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04-24-2007, 01:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrustInJarmo View Post
"Thank you to Larry Pleau"??? Are you kidding me?

I'm sorry. This is insane.

This is the same guy that was part of the problem for the Blues downfall from 97 to 2006!!
Do you read in threads before you rant your opinions? I've read somewhere (don't know where) about how JD and LP worked quite well as a tandem since the new ownership took hold. JD is more the abstract, idea guy in the negotiations and LP has been the number cruncher, laying down all the financial scenario's when it comes to contract discussions.

Larry doesn't get a complete free pass for the foibles that have occured in the past because he should have taken a stand if indeed the Lauries were the cause (which I believe they most definately were) but lets put this in perspective. If your boss comes to you one day and tells you to make a change, do you risk your job to tell him no?

If anything Pleau is just guilty of not having a spine and as his difficult personal problems take precident I imagine he'll have his job description change and the load get lighter as JD starts to take more of a President/GM roll. Pleau seems to have the analytical mind that JD lacks as well as the many connections throughout the league and I bet those connections are good connections due to his years behind the scenes.

Try to be a little more objective and not always believe what you read. LP is in his position for a reason and all of those things you drop in his lap. They may have been his responsibility, but it doesn't mean they are his fault.

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04-24-2007, 01:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Irish Blues View Post
I'll take the counterargument here (in no particular order, and by no means a complete list - I'll get to that later. ):

1. Demitra - are we talking about the the Pavol Demitra who was making $6.5 million and could have gone to arbitration and won $8.5 million despite (A) going silent as the Blues blew a 3-1 lead in the '03 playoffs, then meekly going 1-0-1 in 5 games in the 2004 playoffs? He was a nice regular season player (when he wasn't missing time due to an ingrown hair), but c'mon ... he was virtually guaranteed to get an obscene contract in arbitration; with the lockout looming and Pavol's playoff disappearing act wearing thin, he wasn't worth what he was likely going to get.

2. I and others have hashed out the Pronger trade elsewhere; Pleau didn't get to orchestrate the Pronger deal - that one was hashed out above him, then given to him with orders to sign off. And yes ... no one wanted Pronger to leave - but again, that decision was orchestrated from above, and it was made before the lockout ever started.

3. "he let so many other dozens of players walk for nothing at the deadline" - such as .... ? Pierre Turgeon? Yep, that was a "big loss", Turgeon (and later Scott Young) only went on to sign huge contracts with Dallas and chronically underachieve there (with Turgeon getting bought out after the lockout ended). Alexander Khavanov? Seriously, aside from Demitra, Turgeon, Young, and Hull (who I'll cover shortly), who are all of these "dozens of players" Pleau let walk for nothing, much less were guys who went on to major success elsewhere?

4. Ah, the Golden Brat. Remember, this is the same guy Keenan had traded to Washington before ownership nixed it. This is the same guy who challenged Quenneville and then was miffed because management (not just Pleau) backed the coach. This is the same guy who openly complained that the team was stifling him b/c he was supposed to score goals, not play defense. (This is also the same guy who later admitted he didn't play defense because no one made him, that he would have never won a Cup in St. Louis as a result, and that Ken Hitchcock's threat to "let him rot in the press box" helped make him a 2-way player and more effective for the playoffs.)

This is also the same guy who, after finishing up with Dallas, proclaimed his love for St. Louis and wanted to finish his career here. (He also said the same about Chicago, Montreal, and a couple other cities before settling on Detroit.) That 1998 team he was on? That was the team that went 45-29-8 and finished 4th in the West; at the trade deadline, they were 36-26-8 and in 4th. People thought maybe the team had a shot at the Cup - do you really think that the team was going to trade Hull at that point?

Now ... should he have been brought back? Yeah, we could have - and we still wouldn't have won the Cup b/c Hull very likely still wouldn't have been playing 2-way hockey unless Quenneville had threatened to let him rot in the press box until he got the message. Was Quenneville really going to do that, because Hull wasn't volunteering to do it himself?

Yes, Pleau has made mistakes - but remember, Laurie was the one who opened up the checkbook and screamed, "BUY, BUY, BUY!" And I think people underestimate how much Dick Thomas had his hand in the cookie jar with some of the decisions that were made [most notably, Pleau's deal to get Hasek before the 2001-02 season which was nixed by Thomas b/c he didn't want to give Hasek $10 million per year] ... but Pleau is the GM, and as a result he's everyone's fall guy. And that's fine ... but make sure you have all the facts and put everything in perspective.
1) Everything you said about Demitra is correct. Except the fact you are telling the story of Demitra in St Louis under Quenneville and Pleau. Not what Keenan would have done with him. Which is either, challenge him to elevate his game in the playoffs OR he would have traded him before his salary got so out of control for so many years...something Larry didn't try and do. THANKS LARRY.

2) UM...I already said the decision wasn't Larry's to trade him. My point was the crap he got in return for a future Hall Of Famer, Norris, Top Notch, Once in a Lifetime Defensemen. THANKS LARRY. And Irish, Your telling me that Larry had "no say" in this trade?? When Laurie has no clue what a hockey puck is?? Come on.

3) Ok, I got carried away with the "dozen's of players", you got me there. But he still could have gotten VALUE maybe a 2nd rounder and 3 rounder for each Turgeon and Young. On top of Demitra and Hull (only can imagine what those players in those 2 trades could have done for us) THANKS LARRY.

4) I agree 100% with Hull. I am not a big Hull fan, he hadn't got past the 2nd round in his long career when Keenan came here in 1994. And Keenan went to 4 Stanley Cup Finals in 8 years and JUST won the Cup 1 month earlier and also won a Memorial Cup. And I hate Hull for not listening to Keenan and not being more of a captain for the other Blues players because we eaisly could have won a Cup in 96 had Hull done this and Fuhr not gone done vs Toronto. And we could have had one last run in 97, maybe 98, too. So turst me, I'm not a big fan of Hull either. But the fact is he is a Hall of Famer and won 2 Stanley Cups elsewhere. Larry FAILED to get a deal done (either sign him or trade him in 1998). HUGE MISTAKE.

5) I haven't had hope for the Blues in any of the playoffs years since Yzerman's dager in our heart from the red line 11 years ago. So YES, I expected ALL year to get a deal done...and when it wasn't...I was SCREAMING for a trade in March 1998.

Your right Laurie said buy. And Larry isn't completely useless...Your right, he tried to get Hasek here. But what did Pleau do with that money?? Tkachuck 10 Million a year. Weight (who I love) was totally overpaid!!! Not to mention Lar never got the overpaid Weight ANY wingers! What is the point of getting a guy that can put up 80 to 90 Asts if he has Bogie, Rycroft and other loafs on his line??

Larry did a couple good things...but he also made MUCH MORE mistakes than doing good things.

Which is why in no way will I ever say "thank you Larry."

I will say "Good Riddance" and I hope your wife recovers. Now leave St Louis!


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04-24-2007, 03:38 PM
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Originally Posted by TrustInJarmo View Post
1) Everything you said about Demitra is correct. Except the fact you are telling the story of Demitra in St Louis under Quenneville and Pleau. Not what Keenan would have done with him. Which is either, challenge him to elevate his game in the playoffs OR he would have traded him before his salary got so out of control for so many years...something Larry didn't try and do. THANKS LARRY.
Since when is it the job of the general manager to motivate the players on the ice? Here I thought it was the job of the guy actually coaching the team, but apparently I and others who've followed hockey have been wrong all along.

BTW - Keenan was gone before Demitra played his first game in the Bluenote, so discussing what Keenan would have done is a moot point. He never had the chance - for all we know, he would have gotten miffed and shipped Demitra and a 3rd to Hartford for Steven Rice.

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2) UM...I already said the decision wasn't Larry's to trade him. My point was the crap he got in return for a future Hall Of Famer, Norris, Top Notch, Once in a Lifetime Defensemen. THANKS LARRY. And Irish, Your telling me that Larry had "no say" in this trade?? When Laurie has no clue what a hockey puck is?? Come on.
Yes ... I'm telling you that Larry Pleau had no choice in this. The actual plan from above was to let Pronger walk instead of qualifying him, but that didn't happen. Regardless, Pronger was going to be gone from the team; from there, Pleau wanted to ask around and try to get the best deal he could, but with the team-imposed payroll limit, the Blues were already behind the 8-ball in terms of leverage; when Pleau didn't get a trade done in an "acceptable" amount of time, Thomas stepped in and started orchestrating the discussions, finally striking the deal with Edmonton.

Thomas had already made the decision that Pronger would never be able to regain his form after the wrist surgery, and it was a matter of figuring out a way to try and pin the blame on Chris and smear him in the process - hence the "you want too much money" remarks post-lockout from Mark Sauer.

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3) Ok, I got carried away with the "dozen's of players", you got me there. But he still could have gotten VALUE maybe a 2nd rounder and 3 rounder for each Turgeon and Young. On top of Demitra and Hull (only can imagine what those players in those 2 trades could have done for us) THANKS LARRY.
Again ... Turgeon was on that team that went to the Conference Finals. It was a team that - again - was 4th in the West at the deadline. Turgeon for a 2nd round or 3rd round pick? Are you nuts? Turgeon was a 1st-line center, and you wanted to give him away for a 2nd round pick? Pray do tell, who was going to take Turgeon's place?

Laurie wanted a Cup in the worst way, he was hell-bent on getting it at all costs, and this was a team that had been #1 overall in the regular season the prior year. To Laurie, the team was on the verge of winning the Cup and needed to make bold moves to get players to win it all ... so Pleau was forced to abandon the "develop from within" approach and went after Tkachuk and Stillman to try and get the Cup that Laurie was too impatient to wait to come to us with the then-current plan. That led to going after Weight, Drake, Keane, Pilon, .... and the subsequent implosion of the farm system and eventually the team.

Young? Young had fallen from 40 goals to 19 without Turgeon; suggesting we'd have gotten a 3rd for him might be pushing it. Besides, Laurie had seen the team get to the WCF the year before, and figured we were nomorethanthisclose to finally winning the Cup; there was no way in hell the Blues were about to sell at the deadline.

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4) ... But the fact is he is a Hall of Famer and won 2 Stanley Cups elsewhere. Larry FAILED to get a deal done (either sign him or trade him in 1998). HUGE MISTAKE.
And Brett Hull wouldn't have won a Cup in St. Louis - Hull admitted this himself. What is so hard to get about this? Ownership wasn't going to let Keenan trade Hull, what makes you think they were going to let Pleau do it instead? If ownership wanted Hull to stay with the Blues, it would have happened. Apparently they didn't - maybe because of the turmoil I described above.

Good night, I sort of understand the hate directed at Pleau, and I'm not saying he never made any mistakes, but c'mon ... use a little logic here. It's so easy to look back in hindsight and say "WE SHOULD HAVE DONE THIS, WE SHOULD HAVE DONE THAT" but the reality is that circumstances going on at the time dictated that certain things were not going to happen - and second-guessing now ignores the facts that were in place and the motivations behind those moves.

If you want to hate on Pleau, fine - hate away, but he's going to be with the organization until he wants to leave, because JD is a big fan of him and they work pretty well together.

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04-24-2007, 03:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Irish Blues View Post
I'll take the counterargument here (in no particular order, and by no means a complete list - I'll get to that later. ):

1. Demitra - are we talking about the the Pavol Demitra who was making $6.5 million and could have gone to arbitration and won $8.5 million despite (A) going silent as the Blues blew a 3-1 lead in the '03 playoffs, then meekly going 1-0-1 in 5 games in the 2004 playoffs? He was a nice regular season player (when he wasn't missing time due to an ingrown hair), but c'mon ... he was virtually guaranteed to get an obscene contract in arbitration; with the lockout looming and Pavol's playoff disappearing act wearing thin, he wasn't worth what he was likely going to get.

2. I and others have hashed out the Pronger trade elsewhere; Pleau didn't get to orchestrate the Pronger deal - that one was hashed out above him, then given to him with orders to sign off. And yes ... no one wanted Pronger to leave - but again, that decision was orchestrated from above, and it was made before the lockout ever started.

3. "he let so many other dozens of players walk for nothing at the deadline" - such as .... ? Pierre Turgeon? Yep, that was a "big loss", Turgeon (and later Scott Young) only went on to sign huge contracts with Dallas and chronically underachieve there (with Turgeon getting bought out after the lockout ended). Alexander Khavanov? Seriously, aside from Demitra, Turgeon, Young, and Hull (who I'll cover shortly), who are all of these "dozens of players" Pleau let walk for nothing, much less were guys who went on to major success elsewhere?

4. Ah, the Golden Brat. Remember, this is the same guy Keenan had traded to Washington before ownership nixed it. This is the same guy who challenged Quenneville and then was miffed because management (not just Pleau) backed the coach. This is the same guy who openly complained that the team was stifling him b/c he was supposed to score goals, not play defense. (This is also the same guy who later admitted he didn't play defense because no one made him, that he would have never won a Cup in St. Louis as a result, and that Ken Hitchcock's threat to "let him rot in the press box" helped make him a 2-way player and more effective for the playoffs.)

This is also the same guy who, after finishing up with Dallas, proclaimed his love for St. Louis and wanted to finish his career here. (He also said the same about Chicago, Montreal, and a couple other cities before settling on Detroit.) That 1998 team he was on? That was the team that went 45-29-8 and finished 4th in the West; at the trade deadline, they were 36-26-8 and in 4th. People thought maybe the team had a shot at the Cup - do you really think that the team was going to trade Hull at that point?

Now ... should he have been brought back? Yeah, we could have - and we still wouldn't have won the Cup b/c Hull very likely still wouldn't have been playing 2-way hockey unless Quenneville had threatened to let him rot in the press box until he got the message. Was Quenneville really going to do that, because Hull wasn't volunteering to do it himself?

Yes, Pleau has made mistakes - but remember, Laurie was the one who opened up the checkbook and screamed, "BUY, BUY, BUY!" And I think people underestimate how much Dick Thomas had his hand in the cookie jar with some of the decisions that were made [most notably, Pleau's deal to get Hasek before the 2001-02 season which was nixed by Thomas b/c he didn't want to give Hasek $10 million per year] ... but Pleau is the GM, and as a result he's everyone's fall guy. And that's fine ... but make sure you have all the facts and put everything in perspective.
Great post and all well said. The more I learn about Dick Thomas, he is going to be on the short list of most disliked SOB'S associated with the franchise. what a *****.


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04-24-2007, 03:55 PM
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I have been a defender of Pleau's for years now and I'm not going to get into a history of his every move and why I supported it or not. As it happens I give Pleau and overall grade of C+ in his tenure here as GM. This is a passing grade but the purpose of the course is not to pass but to excel and Larry, respectully, did not do that in his time here, ultimately. The big prize eluded him and that's what he'll ultimately be judged on.
I consider Pleau a top notch human being who deserves a ton of respect and credit for bringing stability to a disorganized and chaotic front office. I didn't agree with everything he did or failed to do but he ran a smooth sailing ship and I admire him for it.
Pleau's detractors never present their cases in rational ways, in my opinion. Usually they're off the mark in what they blame Pleau for (failure to motivate players or letting UFAs walk when his hands were tied and he couldn't truly move them, i.e. Hull, Turgeon, Young were all "needed" for the playoffs but the Blues never had any intention of signing them) or they load their arguments with ad hominen attacks on the man, which I find distasteful. The Pleau haters have such an obvious agenda, such a personal agenda, that I find them hard to stomach.
All the best to Larry Pleau and his family. He has nothing but my respect and admiration.

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04-24-2007, 06:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Irish Blues View Post
Since when is it the job of the general manager to motivate the players on the ice? Here I thought it was the job of the guy actually coaching the team, but apparently I and others who've followed hockey have been wrong all along.

BTW - Keenan was gone before Demitra played his first game in the Bluenote, so discussing what Keenan would have done is a moot point. He never had the chance - for all we know, he would have gotten miffed and shipped Demitra and a 3rd to Hartford for Steven Rice.


Yes ... I'm telling you that Larry Pleau had no choice in this. The actual plan from above was to let Pronger walk instead of qualifying him, but that didn't happen. Regardless, Pronger was going to be gone from the team; from there, Pleau wanted to ask around and try to get the best deal he could, but with the team-imposed payroll limit, the Blues were already behind the 8-ball in terms of leverage; when Pleau didn't get a trade done in an "acceptable" amount of time, Thomas stepped in and started orchestrating the discussions, finally striking the deal with Edmonton.

Thomas had already made the decision that Pronger would never be able to regain his form after the wrist surgery, and it was a matter of figuring out a way to try and pin the blame on Chris and smear him in the process - hence the "you want too much money" remarks post-lockout from Mark Sauer.


Again ... Turgeon was on that team that went to the Conference Finals. It was a team that - again - was 4th in the West at the deadline. Turgeon for a 2nd round or 3rd round pick? Are you nuts? Turgeon was a 1st-line center, and you wanted to give him away for a 2nd round pick? Pray do tell, who was going to take Turgeon's place?

Laurie wanted a Cup in the worst way, he was hell-bent on getting it at all costs, and this was a team that had been #1 overall in the regular season the prior year. To Laurie, the team was on the verge of winning the Cup and needed to make bold moves to get players to win it all ... so Pleau was forced to abandon the "develop from within" approach and went after Tkachuk and Stillman to try and get the Cup that Laurie was too impatient to wait to come to us with the then-current plan. That led to going after Weight, Drake, Keane, Pilon, .... and the subsequent implosion of the farm system and eventually the team.

Young? Young had fallen from 40 goals to 19 without Turgeon; suggesting we'd have gotten a 3rd for him might be pushing it. Besides, Laurie had seen the team get to the WCF the year before, and figured we were nomorethanthisclose to finally winning the Cup; there was no way in hell the Blues were about to sell at the deadline.


And Brett Hull wouldn't have won a Cup in St. Louis - Hull admitted this himself. What is so hard to get about this? Ownership wasn't going to let Keenan trade Hull, what makes you think they were going to let Pleau do it instead? If ownership wanted Hull to stay with the Blues, it would have happened. Apparently they didn't - maybe because of the turmoil I described above.

Good night, I sort of understand the hate directed at Pleau, and I'm not saying he never made any mistakes, but c'mon ... use a little logic here. It's so easy to look back in hindsight and say "WE SHOULD HAVE DONE THIS, WE SHOULD HAVE DONE THAT" but the reality is that circumstances going on at the time dictated that certain things were not going to happen - and second-guessing now ignores the facts that were in place and the motivations behind those moves.

If you want to hate on Pleau, fine - hate away, but he's going to be with the organization until he wants to leave, because JD is a big fan of him and they work pretty well together.
Wow, I can't believe you totally missed my point. So let me break it down for you...Coaches motivates the players...Coaches get hired and fired by the General Manager...Larry Pleau decided for 7 years to have Quenneville as his coach...hence Larry not doing a great job, just like Quenneville. And if Lar didn't think the coach was the problem...why not trade Demitra(which I wish they would have)???

How is it a moot point to talk about what Demitra would have done under Keenan??
Since Pronger did UNBELIVABLE under Mactavish last Playoffs and his current coach now in this playoffs...but yet Pronger did terrible in the playoffs underr Quenneville. I think it is VERY important to bring that stuff up.

Well I still don't believe Pleau had no say in what kind of deal they will get in return for Chris..but will let that be.

AH, I was thinking Turgeon was with us until 02, like Young was here in 02. My fault.

I disagree, Hull can say all he wants he wouldn't have won a Cup with Keenan in St Louis...but he also said Keenan was a terrible coach, yet Keenan took 4 different teams before Hull to the Finals. It would have happened had Hull not been a baby and Fuhr not gone done.

Remember when I say this, I hated Laurie, Thomas, Sauer, Pleau, Quenneville and Kitchen. (Not just Pleau)

So lets say that Pleau had NO say in anything for all these years had NO SAY in anything and that Thomas and Laurie told Larry what to do...If that is the case and Larry is a "respected GM" around the league...Why doesn't Larry say "F U LAURIE AND THOMAS!! I DONT AGREE WITH YOUR STUPID DECISIONS!! LET ME GM OR I WILL GO SOMEWHERE THAT WILL!"

You know why that conversation never happend?? Because Pleau is OVERRATED...And Pleau knows it! And this is his last job as a GM. Why do you think he even got a job? The new coach in Jan 97 was Quenneville...guess who Quenneville's coach was for that great 80s team of the Hartford Whalers?? Head Coach Larry Pleau. And he never coached again after that terrible experiment of Coach Pleau. And that is why he had such a hard time (7 years) to fire Quenneville. Because Larry in part got his job because of Quenneville.

But lets say for a second that Pleau sat by, it makes sense that he sits by and watches others (like Thomas and Laurie) make the decisiions. Because when Pleau was the Ast to the crappy GM Neil Smith of the Rangers in the 94 Cup Run, he saw first hand how Keenan went over Smith's head time and time again to Ownership to get trades done that he wanted (like trading to get Esa, Mactavish, Matteau, ect).

The greatest thing Pleau has ever done was being a Player and winning the Cup in 71. He is terrible in the front office.

Pleau was here this year because Jarmo, the Owner and Davidson had ZERO experience in being a General Manager. And (no matter how bad that GM is) there is no better person to learn on the fly than someone that has been a GM for almost a decade...And if Davidson would have fired Pleau last summer and hired aa Temp GM to learn from and that GM didn't do well...people would have gone off on Davidson for hiring a bad GM...Now JD can still play the card that "Pleau was here when we got here." And when he promotes Jarmo (which I believe they will shortly...maybe would have happened this summer had Pleau's wife not had cancer). Which is ironic, because I believe you are right, I think because of his wife's cancer...Pleau will be here for "awhile". Davidson would feel guilty to let him go, knowing that Pleau was being a good husband at home and not able to work this year.

And I 100% disagree that Pleau will be here "as long as Pleau wants to be". Your telling me that if Jarmo says "Give me the Blues GM spot, or I am going to _____ to be GM for them." Your telling me JD is going to say...."Go ahead Jarmo...see ya later. Because we got Pleau!"


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04-24-2007, 06:41 PM
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Originally Posted by 2ForRoughing View Post
I have been a defender of Pleau's for years now and I'm not going to get into a history of his every move and why I supported it or not. As it happens I give Pleau and overall grade of C+ in his tenure here as GM. This is a passing grade but the purpose of the course is not to pass but to excel and Larry, respectully, did not do that in his time here, ultimately. The big prize eluded him and that's what he'll ultimately be judged on.
I consider Pleau a top notch human being who deserves a ton of respect and credit for bringing stability to a disorganized and chaotic front office. I didn't agree with everything he did or failed to do but he ran a smooth sailing ship and I admire him for it.
Pleau's detractors never present their cases in rational ways, in my opinion. Usually they're off the mark in what they blame Pleau for (failure to motivate players or letting UFAs walk when his hands were tied and he couldn't truly move them, i.e. Hull, Turgeon, Young were all "needed" for the playoffs but the Blues never had any intention of signing them) or they load their arguments with ad hominen attacks on the man, which I find distasteful. The Pleau haters have such an obvious agenda, such a personal agenda, that I find them hard to stomach.
When did anyone say Pleau was NOT "a top notch human being"???? Jesus Christ.
Talk about an "agenda".

And what does that even have to do with him doing a great job at his position that he gets paid for?? It happens all the time in this world. People at jobs go under fire from management and others because they are not doing a "Great Job" at what they are getting paid for. It has nothing to do with "being or not being a top notch human being"

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04-24-2007, 07:18 PM
  #22
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Originally Posted by TrustInJarmo View Post
Wow, I can't believe you totally missed my point. So let me break it down for you...Coaches motivates the players...Coaches get hired and fired by the General Manager...Larry Pleau decided for 7 years to have Quenneville as his coach...hence Larry not doing a great job, just like Quenneville. And if Lar didn't think the coach was the problem...why not trade Demitra(which I wish they would have)???
So ... because Demitra was an underachiever in the playoffs, Quenneville should have been motivating him; because he didn't he should have been canned by Pleau - and because he wasn't, it's Pleau's fault.

O......................K.

1. Who was going to be the coach to take over for Quenneville?
2. Who was going to take Demitra and his $6.5M qualifying offer going into the lockout, besides no one? There's several good [overpaid] players that didn't get qualified after the '03-04 season, let's not pretend that Demitra was the only guy in the league that got cut loose.

Please go make that argument on the main forums. Please - I want to see how many posts it takes before someone posts or . I'm going to bet 3 or less.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrustInJarmo View Post
How is it a moot point to talk about what Demitra would have done under Keenan??
It's a moot point because Demitra never played under Keenan, so speculating whether or not Demitra would have responded appropriately had Keenan stayed in charge is irrelevant - while you can maintain Demitra would have "gotten it", I can just as easily maintain Keenan would have been furious after a while and shipped Demitra and a 3rd off for Brad May ... and is there any way to prove the other side wrong?

No. Thus, it's a moot point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrustInJarmo View Post
I disagree, Hull can say all he wants he wouldn't have won a Cup with Keenan in St Louis...but he also said Keenan was a terrible coach, yet Keenan took 4 different teams before Hull to the Finals. It would have happened had Hull not been a baby and Fuhr not gone done.
Hmm .... when a player comes out and admits he was going to slack off continually b/c no one challenged him and he always got his way, how do you not give those comments some weight?

And since we've mentioned Keenan twice now ... need I remind you how fans were staying away in droves at the start of the '96-97 season after Keenan had traded away fan favorites Joseph and Shanahan, pulled Gretzky's contract offer during the playoffs, yanked the 'C' off Hull's sweater, ... do I need to keep going here? The fan base had been thoroughly alienated, and in late 1996 the owners finally got the message and dumped Keenan to get the fans back. Speculating about what Keenan would have done had he stayed completely ignores this harsh reality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrustInJarmo View Post
So lets say that Pleau had NO say in anything for all these years had NO SAY in anything and that Thomas and Laurie told Larry what to do...If that is the case and Larry is a "respected GM" around the league...Why doesn't Larry say "F U LAURIE AND THOMAS!! I DONT AGREE WITH YOUR STUPID DECISIONS!! LET ME GM OR I WILL GO SOMEWHERE THAT WILL!"
Tell you what ... the next time your boss tells you to do something you don't want, do exactly what you suggest here. See (A) how long you have a job, and (B) how long it takes you to find a similar job. I'm going to bet the respective answers are (A) not very long, and (B) a long, long time.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TrustInJarmo View Post
Pleau was here this year because Jarmo, the Owner and Davidson had ZERO experience in being a General Manager. And (no matter how bad that GM is) there is no better person to learn on the fly than someone that has been a GM for almost a decade...And if Davidson would have fired Pleau last summer and hired aa Temp GM to learn from and that GM didn't do well...people would have gone off on Davidson for hiring a bad GM...Now JD can still play the card that "Pleau was here when we got here." And when he promotes Jarmo (which I believe they will shortly...maybe would have happened this summer had Pleau's wife not had cancer). Which is ironic, because I believe you are right, I think because of his wife's cancer...Pleau will be here for "awhile". Davidson would feel guilty to let him go, knowing that Pleau was being a good husband at home and not able to work this year.
Yeah ........ tell you what, keep believing that the only reason Pleau is here is b/c everyone else has "ZERO experience in being a General Manager." I guarantee the reality is vastly different - as JD said, no one knows how tough it was for Pleau to do his job the last few years, and that he's better than people give him credit for. That's not saying that Pleau doesn't play as prominent of a role; Davidson said himself at the press conference when he was introduced that "no player moves get made without my approval" - but you better believe he's looking at Pleau for input, help in making contacts, and so on.

As such, Pleau will be around as long as he wants.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrustInJarmo View Post
And I 100% disagree that Pleau will be here "as long as Pleau wants to be". Your telling me that if Jarmo says "Give me the Blues GM spot, or I am going to _____ to be GM for them." Your telling me JD is going to say...."Go ahead Jarmo...see ya later. Because we got Pleau!"
Yeah, I'm sure Jarmo will be marching in any day now with that demand - because that's always a good way to endear yourself to your boss and build your reputation around the league. Just like your thoughts about how Demitra would have responded to Keenan, keep thinking it.

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04-24-2007, 07:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Irish Blues View Post
So ... because Demitra was an underachiever in the playoffs and Quenneville should have been motivating him, because he didn't he should have been canned by Pleau - and because he wasn't, it's Pleau's fault.

O......................K.

1. Who was going to be the coach to take over for Quenneville?
2. Who was going to take Demitra and his $6.5M qualifying offer going into the lockout, besides no one? There's several good [overpaid] players that didn't get qualified after the '03-04 season, let's not pretend that Demitra was the only guy in the league that got cut loose.


It's a moot point because Demitra never played under Keenan, so speculating whether or not Demitra would have responded appropriately had Keenan stayed in charge is irrelevant - while you can maintain Demitra would have "gotten it", I can just as easily maintain Keenan would have been furious after a while and shipped Demitra and a 3rd off for Brad May ... and is there any way to prove the other side wrong?

No. Thus, it's a moot point.


Hmm .... when a player comes out and admits he was going to slack off continually b/c no one challenged him and he always got his way, how do you not give those comments some weight?

And since we've mentioned Keenan twice now ... need I remind you how fans were staying away in droves at the start of the '96-97 season after Keenan had traded away fan favorites Joseph and Shanahan, pulled Gretzky's contract offer during the playoffs, yanked the 'C' off Hull's sweater, ... do I need to keep going here? The fan base had been thoroughly alienated, and in late 1996 the owners finally got the message and dumped Keenan to get the fans back. Speculating about what Keenan would have done had he stayed completely ignores this harsh reality.


Tell you what ... the next time your boss tells you to do something you don't want, do exactly what you suggest here. See (A) how long you have a job, and (B) how long it takes you to find a similar job. I'm going to bet the respective answers are (A) not very long, and (B) a long, long time.



Yeah ........ tell you what, keep believing that the only reason Pleau is here is b/c everyone else has "ZERO experience in being a General Manager." I guarantee the reality is vastly different - as JD said, no one knows how tough it was for Pleau to do his job the last few years, and that he's better than people give him credit for. That's not saying that Pleau doesn't play as prominent of a role; Davidson said himself at the press conference when he was introduced that "no player moves get made without my approval" - but you better believe he's looking at Pleau for input, help in making contacts, and so on.

As such, Pleau will be around as long as he wants.


Yeah, I'm sure Jarmo will be marching in any day now with that demand - because that's always a good way to endear yourself to your boss and build your reputation around the league. Just like your thoughts about how Demitra would have responded to Keenan, keep thinking it.
Wow, you really love Pleau don't ya? Demitra should have been traded after he stumbled the first few times in the playoffs...and if you are going to keep Q...than Pleau should have traded Demitra while he had value. Not only does he not do one of the two, but he somehow just lets Demitra walk, even though Lar knows he won't re-sign him.

You never know what people will do...Did anyone think Hull and Keenan would have had such a blow up?? Did anyone think Shanahan would sleep with Janney's wife and than marry her? Did anyone think Casey would have a shutout in Game 7 in 4+ periods against the Red Wings?? Did anyone think Danton would hire a hitman??

You never know what Jarmo could do. It's really NOT that uncommon to want a promotion when you are doing a hell of a job for a organzation.

But good job Irish on jumping around the question.

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04-24-2007, 07:36 PM
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1. "Love Pleau" ... I knew that would come up at some point. When all else fails, pull out the personal attacks.
2. Again ... who was going to take Demitra, knowing the league was headed into a lockout that had no signs of ending anytime soon?
3. Again ... Demitra wasn't the only big-name guy allowed to walk, what about all of those guys?
4. Tell you what: if Jarmo Kekalainen ever gives a demand like you suggest, I'll leave HF. Permanently. That is how confident I am that it'll never happen.
5. I have no idea what question I jumped around, but I certainly didn't see responses to

-- Who was going to take over for Quenneville?
-- Who was going to take Demitra and his $6.5M qualifying offer headed into the lockout [add: and he was eligible for arbitration] when no one had any idea what the league's financial situation was going to look like post-lockout?

I'll also await your comments on how Keenan was going to do to Demitra that Quenneville sorry - Pleau [because it's apparently Pleau's fault] didn't do while realizing that Blues fans were staying away in droves at the end of the Keenan era, making an irrefutable statement about how willing they were to support a Blues organization that had Keenan at the helm.

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04-25-2007, 07:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Irish Blues View Post
1. "Love Pleau" ... I knew that would come up at some point. When all else fails, pull out the personal attacks.
2. Again ... who was going to take Demitra, knowing the league was headed into a lockout that had no signs of ending anytime soon?
3. Again ... Demitra wasn't the only big-name guy allowed to walk, what about all of those guys?
4. Tell you what: if Jarmo Kekalainen ever gives a demand like you suggest, I'll leave HF. Permanently. That is how confident I am that it'll never happen.
5. I have no idea what question I jumped around, but I certainly didn't see responses to

-- Who was going to take over for Quenneville?
-- Who was going to take Demitra and his $6.5M qualifying offer headed into the lockout [add: and he was eligible for arbitration] when no one had any idea what the league's financial situation was going to look like post-lockout?

I'll also await your comments on how Keenan was going to do to Demitra that Quenneville sorry - Pleau [because it's apparently Pleau's fault] didn't do while realizing that Blues fans were staying away in droves at the end of the Keenan era, making an irrefutable statement about how willing they were to support a Blues organization that had Keenan at the helm.
"When all else fails?" No, I made enough examples of Pleau....I was just reminding you how much you love Pleau.

2) "Who was going to take Demitra knowing a lockout was coming?" His first 3 playoff runs were in 97, 98 and 99....what the hell does those years have to do with his outragoeous money he was making 5 years later????????????????????????????????????
Again, going back to my point that you really love Pleau....because my point was he should have been traded in the late 90s.

3) Again, I am not talking about unloading in 2004 before the lockout!

"Who was going to take over for Joel Quenneville?" Darryl Sutter

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