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Calgary vs Nashville

View Poll Results: Who will finish higher in the standings
Calgary 46 53.49%
Nashville 40 46.51%
Voters: 86. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
12-20-2003, 12:18 PM
  #1
macho232
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Calgary vs Nashville

This poll was presented to us about a month ago, and I was surprised to see the results. I now want to give all those Nashville fans a chance to rethink what they were saying. Nashville has the youngest team in the league and in time this will show. Nashville might have a brighter future, but for now the flames are the team to beat.

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12-20-2003, 05:37 PM
  #2
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are you by chance a flames fan?

at the time of the last poll, nashville was one of the hottest teams in the league. they've cooled off a bit. right now...the flames are one of the hottest teams....so too will they.

this just seems unnecessary. they're both doing well. l

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12-20-2003, 06:22 PM
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I still go with Nashville because over the long haul I prefer Vokoun to the Flames goaltending situation.

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12-20-2003, 07:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Epsilon
I still go with Nashville because over the long haul I prefer Vokoun to the Flames goaltending situation.
I agree.

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12-21-2003, 10:09 AM
  #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nomorekids
are you by chance a flames fan?

at the time of the last poll, nashville was one of the hottest teams in the league. they've cooled off a bit. right now...the flames are one of the hottest teams....so too will they.

this just seems unnecessary. they're both doing well. l

By chance are you a preds fan?

I actually love the preds, I'm a personal friend of Scott Hartnell's family so I'm cheering for the preds to make the playoffs. But all biases aside the flames will finish higher than the preds. You say that the preds were hot and now cooled off and soon the flames will too. The way I look at it is that the flames are banged up badly and keep on winning. This shows that they have depth in their system. Quality players like Conroy, Reinprecht, Lydman, Betts, McCammond, Warrener have all missed time during their hot streak but they keep on winning.

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12-21-2003, 10:22 AM
  #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macho232
By chance are you a preds fan?

I actually love the preds, I'm a personal friend of Scott Hartnell's family so I'm cheering for the preds to make the playoffs. But all biases aside the flames will finish higher than the preds. You say that the preds were hot and now cooled off and soon the flames will too. The way I look at it is that the flames are banged up badly and keep on winning. This shows that they have depth in their system. Quality players like Conroy, Reinprecht, Lydman, Betts, McCammond, Warrener have all missed time during their hot streak but they keep on winning.

yeaah...and...the preds were without andreas johansson(almost all season) who is their top scorer from last year, scott walker for 7 games(the emotional heart and soul of the team as well as one of the top scorers), robert schnabel(their best physical\stay at home d-man) and not to mention the slump that legwand and timonen are in. hartnell is out now,and the preds have points in their last 4 games, including an impressive shut out of the wings last night. i'm just saying, when both teams are healthy, they're almost completely evenly matched, more so than you're letting on. i think the two advantages nashville has(and has had) are chemistry(i've long thought calgary had plenty of talent, but didn't seem to put it together) and goaltending.

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12-21-2003, 11:12 AM
  #7
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I said Nashville for reasons above.

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12-21-2003, 12:39 PM
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nomorekids
yeaah...and...the preds were without andreas johansson(almost all season) who is their top scorer from last year, scott walker for 7 games(the emotional heart and soul of the team as well as one of the top scorers), robert schnabel(their best physical\stay at home d-man) and not to mention the slump that legwand and timonen are in.
Are you saying that missing Johansson, Walker, and Schnabel is roughly equivalent to missing Reinprecht, Conroy, Betts, and Turek? If so, I would respectfully disagree.

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12-21-2003, 01:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by icarus
Are you saying that missing Johansson, Walker, and Schnabel is roughly equivalent to missing Reinprecht, Conroy, Betts, and Turek? If so, I would respectfully disagree.
Well, Johansson is our best scorer, Walker is likely our best leader. Losing Schnabel and Kloucek to injury left us dangerously weak. We lost both our crease clearing Dmen.

Betts is OK, but hardly an irreplaceable loss. The loss of Conroy outweighs the loss of Walker, but only slightly. The loss of Johansson and Reinprecht is very similar.

The players you are talking about (Conroy, Betts, Reinprecht) all missed around 33 games total. Johansson himself has been lost for 24 or so. Walker was lost for around 6 games. Schnabel for around 29 games. Kloucek for around 20 games.

I won't say our losses are more, but to say your losses are more is a little off. Despite all this, your best player scorer remains. Our best hasn't played in months.

And no, Turek doesn't count. Considering that Kipprosoff and McLennan have played better than him anway. If anything, his injury has helped Calgary. They can start the better goalies and not worry about starting the million dollar man.


In short, I think Nashville has a much higher upside. If our Dmen keep coming around, Vokoun plays to his potential, and our offense gets healthy, we'll be in the money.

People forget that this defense started the season out with only 2 NHL veterans. Newbies like Schnabel, Hamhuis, Hutchinson, Eaton, and Zidlicky still pepper the roster. Only Timonen and York have more than 200 career NHL games under their belt. Newcomer Leopold has more playing time than 3 of our top 6 (Hamhuis, Schnabel/Hutchinson, and Zidlicky). Now, either our defense tanks it and lets their inexperience show or our youngsters play like they have 40-60 extra games under their belt. You can hedge your bets either way. Calgary does have the better defense and unless Hamhuis, Zidlicky and Schnabel rapidly mature, it'll stay that way. But, we have Tomas Vokoun. He is the ultimate wildcard. Kiprosoff and McLennan have yet to prove they can sustain elite play over the course of an entire season. Vokoun hasn't exactly proved anything, but he certainly has proven a helluva lot more than any goaltender the Flames will ice this season. The Preds carried Vokoun at several points in this season. What will Calgary do when their goalies start giving up the soft ones?

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12-21-2003, 02:36 PM
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokeyClause
Well, Johansson is our best scorer, Walker is likely our best leader. Losing Schnabel and Kloucek to injury left us dangerously weak. We lost both our crease clearing Dmen.

Betts is OK, but hardly an irreplaceable loss. The loss of Conroy outweighs the loss of Walker, but only slightly. The loss of Johansson and Reinprecht is very similar.
Reinprecht, Conroy, and Betts are three of the Flames' top four centres. That is roughly equivalent to the Preds losing, say, Legwand, Arkhipov, and Murray all at the same time. All three Flames centres are over 50% in the faceoff circle. I don't care what team you are, that is a huge blow to miss all those guys at the same time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokeyClause
The players you are talking about (Conroy, Betts, Reinprecht) all missed around 33 games total. Johansson himself has been lost for 24 or so. Walker was lost for around 6 games. Schnabel for around 29 games. Kloucek for around 20 games.
Again, we are overlooking the fact that all the Flames players listed play the same position. You've lost a LWer, a RWer, and a defenseman. I am not including Schnabel because I consider his spot easily compensated for by the likes of Hutchinson or Schultz (as you say for Betts, hardly an irreplaceable loss). If we are going to talk multi-positionally here, we might as well add in a good 20+ games for Turek, bringing the Flames man-games lost for those four to about 60 and counting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokeyClause
I won't say our losses are more, but to say your losses are more is a little off. Despite all this, your best player scorer remains. Our best hasn't played in months.
Our best scorer is Jarome Iginla and yours is Andreas Johansson; let's keep some perspective here. Johansson's loss would be akin to the Flames losing Martin Gelinas. The point that you've lost a key scorer stands, but things become a little skewed when you try to make the comparison.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokeyClause
And no, Turek doesn't count. Considering that Kipprosoff and McLennan have played better than him anway. If anything, his injury has helped Calgary. They can start the better goalies and not worry about starting the million dollar man.
I don't get this. Turek was and should still be considered the Flames #1 goaltender. It is difficult to say Kiprusoff and McLennan have played better when Turek has only played three games... not a very good sample size. Also remember the Flames had to deal for Kiprusoff, so for awhile the tandem in Calgary was Jamie McLennan and a very green Dany Sabourin. It is silly that you suggest losing Turek helped Calgary. It is chic to bash Turek, but I have as much confidence in him as I do the other goalies. After all, he's the one who earned the number one job in training camp over McLennan, so his loss is not an injury that can just be brushed off.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokeyClause
In short, I think Nashville has a much higher upside. If our Dmen keep coming around, Vokoun plays to his potential, and our offense gets healthy, we'll be in the money.

[...]

The Preds carried Vokoun at several points in this season. What will Calgary do when their goalies start giving up the soft ones?
This last part doesn't really support a claim that Nashville will finish higher in the standings than Calgary (which, after all, the poll is about). In fact, the first post included the caveat "Nashville might have a brighter future, but for now the flames are the team to beat."

I'm still not convinced that (a) Nashville's had the worse injury problems and (b) that they will finish higher than the Flames in the standings.

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Old
12-21-2003, 03:18 PM
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by icarus
Reinprecht, Conroy, and Betts are three of the Flames' top four centres. That is roughly equivalent to the Preds losing, say, Legwand, Arkhipov, and Murray all at the same time. All three Flames centres are over 50% in the faceoff circle. I don't care what team you are, that is a huge blow to miss all those guys at the same time.
We lost 2/3rds of our first line. Being weak down the middle hurts, but I never said losing Johansson and Walker was equivalent to losing all three.



Quote:
Originally Posted by icarus
Again, we are overlooking the fact that all the Flames players listed play the same position. You've lost a LWer, a RWer, and a defenseman. I am not including Schnabel because I consider his spot easily compensated for by the likes of Hutchinson or Schultz (as you say for Betts, hardly an irreplaceable loss). If we are going to talk multi-positionally here, we might as well add in a good 20+ games for Turek, bringing the Flames man-games lost for those four to about 60 and counting.
Schnabel cannot be replaced by Shultz or Hutchinson. Schnabel is a 6'6" 240 monster. Shultz and Hutch are hardly that. It's like saying you can replace Derian Hatcher with Zubov. They play two different roles.


Quote:
Originally Posted by icarus
Our best scorer is Jarome Iginla and yours is Andreas Johansson; let's keep some perspective here. Johansson's loss would be akin to the Flames losing Martin Gelinas. The point that you've lost a key scorer stands, but things become a little skewed when you try to make the comparison.
Well, I consider Johansson to be a legit 20-25 goal scorer when healthy. Iginla is a legit 30 goal scorer. I wasn't comparing the two. I was tossing it out for consideration. Losing Gelinas, not even close.


Quote:
Originally Posted by icarus
I don't get this. Turek was and should still be considered the Flames #1 goaltender. It is difficult to say Kiprusoff and McLennan have played better when Turek has only played three games... not a very good sample size. Also remember the Flames had to deal for Kiprusoff, so for awhile the tandem in Calgary was Jamie McLennan and a very green Dany Sabourin. It is silly that you suggest losing Turek helped Calgary. It is chic to bash Turek, but I have as much confidence in him as I do the other goalies. After all, he's the one who earned the number one job in training camp over McLennan, so his loss is not an injury that can just be brushed off.
His sample size is small, but his results leave a lot to be desired. When compared to the last 3 years, Kiprusoff's and McLennan's numbers are quite superior. Like I said, I think his loss isn't that big of a deal. Obviously it's not. Surely you don't think his return will bolster the team and he'll post sub 2.00 GAA's like your other two. Don't be naive.



Quote:
Originally Posted by icarus
This last part doesn't really support a claim that Nashville will finish higher in the standings than Calgary (which, after all, the poll is about). In fact, the first post included the caveat "Nashville might have a brighter future, but for now the flames are the team to beat."

I'm still not convinced that (a) Nashville's had the worse injury problems and (b) that they will finish higher than the Flames in the standings.

The last part was not intended to convince anyone. If anything, it was a disclaimer. The Preds could be good or they could falter. I was simply stating that they have a higher upside (actually, quite a bit higher) than the Flames but a greater risk.

My argument that the Preds are better rests solely on Vokoun. He's the gamebreaking goalie that you guys really don't have.

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Old
12-21-2003, 03:52 PM
  #12
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Calgary takes it easily, nor do I think Nashville has a brighter future.

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12-21-2003, 04:22 PM
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokeyClause
We lost 2/3rds of our first line. Being weak down the middle hurts, but I never said losing Johansson and Walker was equivalent to losing all three.
Not sure what youíre trying to say here. Iíll leave it for the time being.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokeyClause
Schnabel cannot be replaced by Shultz or Hutchinson. Schnabel is a 6'6" 240 monster. Shultz and Hutch are hardly that. It's like saying you can replace Derian Hatcher with Zubov. They play two different roles.
Okay, so you see Schnabel as an important loss. Iíll have to call you on brushing off the injury to Blair Betts though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokeyClause
Well, I consider Johansson to be a legit 20-25 goal scorer when healthy. Iginla is a legit 30 goal scorer. I wasn't comparing the two. I was tossing it out for consideration. Losing Gelinas, not even close.
Johansson is as much of a legit 20-25 goal scorer as Martin Gelinas is. Donít forget we had Johansson here in Calgary too, so we are aware he has limitations. One good season last year and now heís a 25 goal scorer. Donít be naÔve, as you say.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokeyClause
His sample size is small, but his results leave a lot to be desired. When compared to the last 3 years, Kiprusoff's and McLennan's numbers are quite superior. Like I said, I think his loss isn't that big of a deal. Obviously it's not. Surely you don't think his return will bolster the team and he'll post sub 2.00 GAA's like your other two. Don't be naive.
I donít see why he canít bolster the team and post sub 2.00 GAA's. If Jamie McLennan can do it, Roman Turek certainly can. The goaltending performances for Calgary this year have a lot to do with the defence. Turek may falter, or he may pick up where the other two left off. After all, he has won the Jennings Trophy beforeÖ

Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokeyClause
The last part was not intended to convince anyone. If anything, it was a disclaimer. The Preds could be good or they could falter. I was simply stating that they have a higher upside (actually, quite a bit higher) than the Flames but a greater risk.
Debateable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokeyClause
My argument that the Preds are better rests solely on Vokoun. He's the gamebreaking goalie that you guys really don't have.
Again, debateable.

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12-21-2003, 04:35 PM
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by icarus
Debateable.
You're catching on real quick. Of course it's debatable. It's all debatable. If I could come up with a fool proof formula to show the Preds are better, trust me, I'd show it to you.

The first line was basically saying that I didn't say losing Johansson/Walker > losing Betts/Conroy/Reinprecht.

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12-21-2003, 04:37 PM
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokeyClause
You're catching on real quick. Of course it's debatable. It's all debatable. If I could come up with a fool proof formula to show the Preds are better, trust me, I'd show it to you.

The first line was basically saying that I didn't say losing Johansson/Walker > losing Betts/Conroy/Reinprecht.
Sounds like we are finally in agreement. I guess we'll let the final standings solve the debate.

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12-21-2003, 04:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by icarus
Sounds like we are finally in agreement. I guess we'll let the final standings solve the debate.
My thoughts exactly. We could argue forever on this one. Your a Calgary, and I'm a Nashville fan. Our beds are made.

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12-21-2003, 04:57 PM
  #17
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Nashville

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12-21-2003, 05:28 PM
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokeyClause
We lost 2/3rds of our first line. Being weak down the middle hurts, but I never said losing Johansson and Walker was equivalent to losing all three.





Schnabel cannot be replaced by Shultz or Hutchinson. Schnabel is a 6'6" 240 monster. Shultz and Hutch are hardly that. It's like saying you can replace Derian Hatcher with Zubov. They play two different roles.




Well, I consider Johansson to be a legit 20-25 goal scorer when healthy. Iginla is a legit 30 goal scorer. I wasn't comparing the two. I was tossing it out for consideration. Losing Gelinas, not even close.




His sample size is small, but his results leave a lot to be desired. When compared to the last 3 years, Kiprusoff's and McLennan's numbers are quite superior. Like I said, I think his loss isn't that big of a deal. Obviously it's not. Surely you don't think his return will bolster the team and he'll post sub 2.00 GAA's like your other two. Don't be naive.






The last part was not intended to convince anyone. If anything, it was a disclaimer. The Preds could be good or they could falter. I was simply stating that they have a higher upside (actually, quite a bit higher) than the Flames but a greater risk.

My argument that the Preds are better rests solely on Vokoun. He's the gamebreaking goalie that you guys really don't have.
Jarome Iginla is the best player on either team. Calgary has a game breaking forward, along with a good stay at home defence core, and a goalie duo that has previously won the Jennings Trophy.

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12-21-2003, 06:00 PM
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macho232
Jarome Iginla is the best player on either team. Calgary has a game breaking forward, along with a good stay at home defence core, and a goalie duo that has previously won the Jennings Trophy.

I think one could argue that Vokoun is currently the best player on either team. Vokoun is a top 10 goalie, Iginla isn't a top 10 forward (IMO).

And a goalie duo that has previously won the Jennings holds about as much weight as me pointing out that McKenzie has won a Stanley Cup.

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12-21-2003, 06:03 PM
  #20
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C'mon man be realistic.

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12-21-2003, 06:17 PM
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charon
C'mon man be realistic.
I'm being realistic. Take away Iginla's best year and he is a 65 point a year player. Vokoun's numbers aren't always pretty but I think a case can be made that he is as good if not better than Iginla (at what he does). The goalie is the most important position on the ice. Our goalie is consirably better, IMO, than your goalie. To say he's the best player on the ice isn't a stretch. He certainly was November 13.

Notice I didn't say he was, just that it's debatable. Maybe you underrate Vokoun and overrate Iginla or maybe I underrate Iginla and overrae Vokoun. It's all debatable. But don't tell me I'm not being realistic.

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12-21-2003, 06:18 PM
  #22
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Vokoun's been good for a year, Iginla has always been good.

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12-21-2003, 06:26 PM
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charon
Vokoun's been good for a year, Iginla has always been good.

Rick Nash has only been good for a year. Does that make him any less of a goal scorer?

Vokoun's only been good for a year because you don't follow the Predators. He's only been good for a year to outsiders because he finally unseated the franchise goalie in Dunham a year ago. He was superb in backup duty for the Preds for several years. Fans have been calling for him to be the starter since 2001.

And I could comment that Iginla had one fluke year and is nothing but a legit 65-70 point man. Which would make him a very good but not great forward. A case can be made for Vokoun, you cannot deny that. Whether you agree with it or not, you have to throw your Calgary leanings aside and fess up to that.

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12-21-2003, 06:36 PM
  #24
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Are you serious? Do I really have to explain everything?

Here goes: Rick Nash was the 1st overall pick last year. Vokoun was a 9th rounder 9 years ago and they broke out at the same time. Vokoun was good one year, Iginla was the best in the league one year. Vokoun's good but what are you basing it on? The last 20 games? BTW there are no Calgary "leanings" so don't go down that waaaaaay overused road I'm just telling it how it is.

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Old
12-21-2003, 06:52 PM
  #25
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oh, so when you're drafted is a barometer for how good you are? tell that to hasek.

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