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Wholesale change in the new year (not necessarily immediate but inevitable)?

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Old
12-20-2003, 07:51 PM
  #1
Shizuka
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Wholesale change in the new year (not necessarily immediate but inevitable)?

Well, after another loss and phone in efforts from some of the alleged leaders on this team, I can't see Lowe sitting pat and letting them play their way out of this funk anymore. That makes it 2 victories in 14 or 15 games, which is pathetic. I know some folks are going to say it's just overreaction on my part but, boy...some guys have just completely quit on the team. I would like to see the numbers for turnovers in the defensive zone...

Conklin played alright. The first and second goals were weak, but he did make a few point blank saves on the typical defensive zone breakdowns. Bergeron was suspect on some lousy giveaways, but given it's his first game back after riding the pressbox for a while, I suppose it's expected. Ryan Smyth is a different story. He has quit fighting in the battles along the boards, and looked disinterested out there. He took a poor penalty on a powerplay. Laraque...you know I've defended the guy for a long time, but when you actually need to be prompted and prodded to do the job that is expected of you, what are you in the lineup for? He plays well for about 5 games, and then the rest of the season he is lukewarm.

Smith, Moreau, Hemsky and Oates were probably the best of the bunch. They may have been the only ones on the team doing anything worthwhile.

2 victories in 14. Can changes be far behind? If so, will it be small, cosmetic changes or will Lowe end up gutting the lineup and starting over? If we do not make the playoffs, I am thinking he will indeed rip the lineup apart and rebuild (the eternal frustration of the Edmonton fan). I do not think MacT will be going anywhere, even though I'm in the minority here. Too much of the onus is being placed on the damn coaching staff. The players need to shape up! Ahh damn...I had better stop there before this degenerates into a complete flame of the lineup.

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12-20-2003, 08:09 PM
  #2
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Good post Shizuka. I agree that Conklin played alright, and that Bergeron and Semenov and Chimera for that matter weren't the reason for this loss.

Despite tonights effort this team has talent, it's not like 93-94 around here (some of our defensemen found skating backwards a chore that winter) and it will get better.

The big concern for an organization now is an over reaction, trading a Miro Satan (I'm still not over that one) or maybe in today's scenario a Semenov.

I don't think Lowe will do that, and he'll ride out the storm. If the Oilers end the season in 12th overall in their conference, so be it. No use mortgaging the future for what is becoming a faint chance at 8th spot.

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12-20-2003, 08:35 PM
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I think the constant years of being forced into giving up a great player entering their prime years have hurt us... and hurt us BADLY. By replacing Guerin with Carter... Doug Weight with Comrie... Niinimaa with Staios... Hamrlik with Brewer... etc.

We are trying to patch up the holes in our team with players of lesser quality. And it's finally hurting us where it counts. The standings. It'd be nice to say that when I look at his team, I see the makings of a cup contender... And if I was merely looking at portions of the club, I could be able to say that. Guys such as Ales Hemsky, Semenov, Stoll, Torres possibly a veteran Ryan Smyth or Eric Brewer... could all be good core players in a cup contender in the future.

However, where we do see guys like Cross, Radek Dvorak, or Brad Isbister, etc? Are these the players you see contributing to a cup contending squad? IMO, not particularly especially at their current ages.

Does this team have talent? Sure it does. But how do we define at what level of talent this team has? Does this team have top 8 in the conference talent? Top 4? Top 12? Even if everyone on the team improves, does this team still have enough talent to win a cup in the future? IMO, with the current players... no. Perhaps if guys like Pouliiot, Niinimaki, etc pan out like expected. But isn't that a youth movement? Why not try? We're losing with a lot of veterans at the moment anyway. Again why not try to bring up some of the youth to play?

Besides, a top draft pick could land us a Barker, Malkin, Ovechkin (but we'd have to be really bad AND lucky to garner the top pick) Tukonen, Schwarz, etc.

Oh well. The only thing we can hope Lowe does not do as LT said. DO NOT SACRIFICE THE YOUTH TO MAKE A RUN AT THE PLAYOFFS. (especially since that is still no guarantee)

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Old
12-20-2003, 08:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by momentai
I think the constant years of being forced into giving up a great player entering their prime years have hurt us... and hurt us BADLY. By replacing Guerin with Carter... Doug Weight with Comrie... Niinimaa with Staios... Hamrlik with Brewer... etc.

We are trying to patch up the holes in our team with players of lesser quality. And it's finally hurting us where it counts. The standings. It'd be nice to say that when I look at his team, I see the makings of a cup contender... And if I was merely looking at portions of the club, I could be able to say that. Guys such as Ales Hemsky, Semenov, Stoll, Torres possibly a veteran Ryan Smyth or Eric Brewer... could all be good core players in a cup contender in the future.

However, where we do see guys like Cross, Radek Dvorak, or Brad Isbister, etc? Are these the players you see contributing to a cup contending squad? IMO, not particularly especially at their current ages.

Does this team have talent? Sure it does. But how do we define at what level of talent this team has? Does this team have top 8 in the conference talent? Top 4? Top 12? Even if everyone on the team improves, does this team still have enough talent to win a cup in the future? IMO, with the current players... no. Perhaps if guys like Pouliiot, Niinimaki, etc pan out like expected. But isn't that a youth movement? Why not try? We're losing with a lot of veterans at the moment anyway. Again why not try to bring up some of the youth to play?

Besides, a top draft pick could land us a Barker, Malkin, Ovechkin (but we'd have to be really bad AND lucky to garner the top pick) Tukonen, Schwarz, etc.

Oh well. The only thing we can hope Lowe does not do as LT said. DO NOT SACRIFICE THE YOUTH TO MAKE A RUN AT THE PLAYOFFS. (especially since that is still no guarantee)
If we start playing the trap...maybe we will win a few more...but do we want to play like that? no...so we will lose to marginal teams (even canucks looked avg tonite) That's todays NHL.

On a side note, what is the Oil's record WITH Oates in the line-up? Hmmm...time to trade Oates?

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12-20-2003, 08:43 PM
  #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny08
On a side note, what is the Oil's record WITH Oates in the line-up? Hmmm...time to trade Oates?
Please tell me you are kidding. Who do we get back in for Oates?

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12-20-2003, 08:43 PM
  #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny08
If we start playing the trap...maybe we will win a few more...but do we want to play like that? no...so we will lose to marginal teams (even canucks looked avg tonite) That's todays NHL.

On a side note, what is the Oil's record WITH Oates in the line-up? Hmmm...time to trade Oates?
I didn't say that we would have to play the trap at all. Perhaps it would be easier for our club to win games but obviously Lowe wants no part of that.

I merely speculated that why play the youth when we have it? Would missing the playoffs and starting a rebuild really be so bad?

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12-20-2003, 08:49 PM
  #7
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I was at the Minnesota game and I watched the game tonight. Maybe I am too much of a 'the glass is half full' kind of guy but I think I see real talent on the ice.

What I see behind the bench is another matter. I gotta say that all the oilers are handling the puck like it is a hand grenade. I think MacT has a stop watch on the bench and if anyone maintains possession of the puck for more than 4 seconds they get benched. I can see a couple of guys gripping the stick a little hard but not the majority of the team.

When that many guys are uptight it has to be the coach(es). Unfortunately Mac got a 3 year deal when the gettin was good.

God I sound like "daily doug' on totalsports.

 
Old
12-20-2003, 09:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by momentai
Would missing the playoffs and starting a rebuild really be so bad?
I think the rebuild has already started it's just a matter if Lowe wants to finish it here and now and dump the last pieces that don't quite fit in the scheme or keep trying to ice a fairly competitive team while he systematically rebuilds it slowly piece by piece. I'd give the players 15-20 more games then make the final decision.

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Old
12-20-2003, 09:51 PM
  #9
LoudmouthHemskyfan#1
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If anyone says anything in here about Defence or trapping, I swear I am gonna snap.

As I yelled with an interested Rich Winter only several feet behind me with some blonde chick.........


OUR PROBLEM IS WE CAN'T SCORE!!!!

WAKE UP PEOPLE!

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Old
12-20-2003, 09:57 PM
  #10
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have to agree, natural goal scorers are an enigma for this team.

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Old
12-20-2003, 10:01 PM
  #11
momentai
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FacelessButcher
I think the rebuild has already started it's just a matter if Lowe wants to finish it here and now and dump the last pieces that don't quite fit in the scheme or keep trying to ice a fairly competitive team while he systematically rebuilds it slowly piece by piece. I'd give the players 15-20 more games then make the final decision.
Yeah that's what I was thinking as well. At this point this team is a bit of a team in flux... somewhere in the middle but not quite at either end.

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12-21-2003, 06:16 AM
  #12
Mr Sakich
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I think a lot of veterans will be available at the deadline and it might be to lowe's advantage to do the deals before the market gets flooded.

I could see smith, izzy, BG, oates, cross, and salo being offered.

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12-21-2003, 06:29 AM
  #13
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guys the oilers always go thru a stinker of a patch, happens every year just be patient (i know its hard) but just be patient they'll turn it around soon enough hopefully not too late

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Old
12-21-2003, 06:47 AM
  #14
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I think the ball is definately in K.lo court right now. As much as Salo has been bad, I can't believe there is not a market for him. I mean, teams like Philly, Boston or Chicago could use a veteran like Salo. Maybe Lowe can sell him as a change of scenery. Laraque is the same.

I do think management owes it to the fans to do whatever is resonable to get this team in the playoffs. I keep hearing about rebuilding but I'm pretty sick of rebuilding. I understand that we do have a good core of younger players in Edmonton and in TO. I think it's time Rita gets a serious chance. Not just two games two mistakes, ticket to TO. The Oilers should play him. I don't know who mentioned this (I think Lowetide), but Rita is a good shooter and goal scorer. When, as a team, you shoot over 40 shots on goal and score only twice, there is a problem. I agree with others who say we don't have a sniper. Put Rita on a line with Oates or Hemsky and go with it.

Hopefully after the roster freeze, we'll se some sort of an attempt by Lowe to shake things up, especially after they lose to the Flamers Tuesday.

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Old
12-21-2003, 07:21 AM
  #15
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I don't see a need for panic just yet. I do agree with bringing up some of the young guys like Rita and give them a shot.

I think the Oilers should try to get a good open ice hitter or bring back Mike Grier...I think that is an aspect of hockey that is missing from the Oilers game right now. I sure enjoyed the hit Torres laid out Sedin with last night. Granted it was an elbow but we need more of the rough stuff so opposing teams don't look at the Oilers on their schedule and think "wow, two easy points coming up". And as much as it pains me to say this...it is time for Big Georges to go. He is taking up a spot on the roster that could be given to a myriad of other players.

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Old
12-21-2003, 08:28 AM
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Sakich
I think a lot of veterans will be available at the deadline and it might be to lowe's advantage to do the deals before the market gets flooded.

I could see smith, izzy, BG, oates, cross, and salo being offered.
Well it looks like the boys will be nowhere near .500 at New Year so lets finish the rebuild that has been on-going since Lowe arrived on the scene. In contrast to what some people say - I do see a lot of talent out there but a complete lack of cohesiveness.

1 - MacTs line blender has completely confused the team. Nobody knows what their role is anymore and the team has tuned him out. I would fire MacT and have Lowe step behind the bench. His job is to bring some stability to the situation and install a system (I have not seen either from MacT this year)

2 - Create a veteran top line for gods sake - we have the pieces in Smyth, Dvorak and Oates. Their job is to score and lead the team - they have to be the top dogs and know it.

3 - Get a dominant checking line back together as soon as Marty is healed. I would go with Moreau, Reasoner and Isbister (assuming Izzy accepts this role - if he doesn't then trade his ass out of here). These guys also play an important leadership role and their job is to shut down the opposition top lines and chip in a few timely goals. This is the second most important line on the team and we need solid talent here.

4 - Work our young forwards into the lineup where they can gain experience without the pressure of leading the team - on the 4th and 2nd lines. These guys include Torres, Chimera on LW and Hemsky, Rita on RW. York is the second line center - Horcoff is the 4th line center.

5 - Create a top dman pair for pete's sake and I finally saw one with Smith and Brew together last night. The same lack of stability from the coaching staff has affected the defense and especially Brewer IMO. One of the few things I like about last night was Smith's play - he took it upon himself to challenge Bertuzzi every shift. Brew is freed up to be more offensive while playing with Smith. As for the second unit I would go with Staios and Semi while Cross and MAB can take the 3rd slot - then leave the damn pairings alone and let the guys get comfortable. Lynch and Woywitka stay in TO all year to log big minutes - its better for them in the long-term.

6 - Give Salo a several starts in the next few games. If he remains useless then turn the reins over completely to Conks in the new year and start shopping for a guy to play with him. A vet like Grahame may be good or younger guys like Emery or Garon. Salos play has killed this season so it's time to move on if he does not get it together within the next week. Trade him for nothing like Vancouver did with Potvin a few years ago (that Canuck season and this Oiler season are so similar it's scary).

7 - trade the vets who are not part of the program after this year. Laraque and Salo are at the top of the list. You keep Smith if at all possible becuase he's worth the money playing the way he has on our top pair with Brew. Ferguson and Pisani can stay as PB material - nothing wrong with that.

So there are really not many changes that need to be made - ship out Salo and Laraque, obtain a second decent goalie to go with Conks, and replace the problem behind the bench. The team HAS been rebuilt and does have talent - what it lacks now is leadership and confidence and that starts with the coaching staff. Our players have no idea what their roles are, the special teams are awful, and these are primarily coaching problems - so MacT takes the fall. Let's finish off the rebuild and get some stabilty going so that we can finish the year strong and go into next year confdent and with something to build on. Like I said earlier - this Oiler team looks so much like the Canucks of a few years ago - and that turned out just fine.

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Old
12-21-2003, 09:03 AM
  #17
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Why are people so easy to go on another rebuilding effort? What would that be, 3 rebuilds in a row? Two by Kevin Lowe? Sorry, but you've got to build a team strong enough the first time. Kevin Lowe will probobly stick with this team for a long while yet. Another rebuild could mean his job is on the line.

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12-21-2003, 09:13 AM
  #18
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IMO our goaltending is a problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shizuka
Well, after another loss and phone in efforts from some of the alleged leaders on this team, I can't see Lowe sitting pat and letting them play their way out of this funk anymore. That makes it 2 victories in 14 or 15 games, which is pathetic. I know some folks are going to say it's just overreaction on my part but, boy...some guys have just completely quit on the team. I would like to see the numbers for turnovers in the defensive zone...

Conklin played alright. The first and second goals were weak, but he did make a few point blank saves on the typical defensive zone breakdowns. Bergeron was suspect on some lousy giveaways, but given it's his first game back after riding the pressbox for a while, I suppose it's expected. Ryan Smyth is a different story. He has quit fighting in the battles along the boards, and looked disinterested out there. He took a poor penalty on a powerplay. Laraque...you know I've defended the guy for a long time, but when you actually need to be prompted and prodded to do the job that is expected of you, what are you in the lineup for? He plays well for about 5 games, and then the rest of the season he is lukewarm.

Smith, Moreau, Hemsky and Oates were probably the best of the bunch. They may have been the only ones on the team doing anything worthwhile.

2 victories in 14. Can changes be far behind? If so, will it be small, cosmetic changes or will Lowe end up gutting the lineup and starting over? If we do not make the playoffs, I am thinking he will indeed rip the lineup apart and rebuild (the eternal frustration of the Edmonton fan). I do not think MacT will be going anywhere, even though I'm in the minority here. Too much of the onus is being placed on the damn coaching staff. The players need to shape up! Ahh damn...I had better stop there before this degenerates into a complete flame of the lineup.
Salo is not healthy he left after the first period because he couldn't even sit on the bench.

Conklin lets in weak ones, that first one was a heartbreaker as it was really the first good chance Vancouver had and it went in. It's the same thing we jump on Salo for and if Conklin is now the number one he can't be given that slack anymore.

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12-21-2003, 09:14 AM
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
Why are people so easy to go on another rebuilding effort? What would that be, 3 rebuilds in a row? Two by Kevin Lowe? Sorry, but you've got to build a team strong enough the first time. Kevin Lowe will probobly stick with this team for a long while yet. Another rebuild could mean his job is on the line.

I have to admit to a bit of confusion on this statement. Rebuilds? He traded Roman Hamrlik, Doug Weight, Bill Guerin, Janne Niinimaa, Anson Carter for less expensive options, but I don't see a re-build in there.

I'd say we could describe it as getting as much value as possible for players who were no longer affordable.

Rebuild? I feel kind of silly having missed both of them.

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12-21-2003, 09:19 AM
  #20
hockeyaddict101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
Why are people so easy to go on another rebuilding effort? What would that be, 3 rebuilds in a row? Two by Kevin Lowe? Sorry, but you've got to build a team strong enough the first time. Kevin Lowe will probobly stick with this team for a long while yet. Another rebuild could mean his job is on the line.
Sorry Mizral this is the first rebuild. It has taken Calgary 7 years to get to a point to even challenge for a playoff spot and Calgary fans have put up with a lot of crap to even get to this point.

Ottawa has taken nine and again they haven't won anything yet and there were a lot of crap teams to get to this point.

Vancouver has taken 5 to 7 and Vancouver hasn't won anything yet. Until Vancouver wins a Stanley Cup they will be a good team not a great one and there have been a whole lot of crap Vancouver teams to get to this point

It doesn't happen overnight. Even our first megateam took five years to win a Stanley Cup and that was one of the best teams ever assembled and that one had a pretty good building block named Wayne Gretzky.

Kevin Lowe took over in 2000, there has not been time for three rebuilds and there may be a few crap teams to build to where he wants to go.

Kevin Lowe has always said he is rebuilding for post 2004 and trying to put the pieces together to do that.

There is going to be growing pains, just like there has been in Vancouver, Ottawa, and Calgary.

All teams are continually building and retooling except for the one that one the Stanley Cup and that team was New Jersey.

Every other team is taking steps to get there. Some are in different points of their development which of course now is complicated by financial implications which makes it harder for some teams than others.

Look at Calgary for example they will have to decide what to do with Iginla at the end of this season, they will either pay him and sacrifice some other parts like Conroy or trade Iginla and get some other young players in return. IMO Iginla got too much money for ONE very good season but that is another thing the CBA has to address. This is a fact of life for small market teams.

That is what the whole war in 2004 is going to be all about, levelling the playing field so all can compete.


Last edited by hockeyaddict101: 12-21-2003 at 09:47 AM.
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Old
12-21-2003, 09:39 AM
  #21
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It seems to me Lowe has been in a position of trying to maintain our competitiveness without paying for it too highly. He has done a good job but unfortunately it doesn't always pan out. Young players and role players are great additions to any team but we need a couple elite players to be an elite team.

Even Minnesota has their Gaborik

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Old
12-21-2003, 09:53 AM
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
Why are people so easy to go on another rebuilding effort? What would that be, 3 rebuilds in a row? Two by Kevin Lowe? Sorry, but you've got to build a team strong enough the first time. Kevin Lowe will probobly stick with this team for a long while yet. Another rebuild could mean his job is on the line.
Didn't I address this last week with you? I am sure I did. Here we go. Actually it was 3 days ago...

http://www.hfboards.com/showpost.php...0&postcount=22

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12-21-2003, 10:16 AM
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by momentai
Didn't I address this last week with you? I am sure I did. Here we go. Actually it was 3 days ago...

http://www.hfboards.com/showpost.php...0&postcount=22

EXACTLY. If he's re-built twice and still gets his team to 90 points a season, Lowe's a better GM than he was a hockey player.

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12-21-2003, 11:04 AM
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
What would that be, 3 rebuilds in a row? .
Please enumerate said rebuilds or allow us to put you on our ignore lists...this nonsense is very tiring.

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12-21-2003, 11:05 AM
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
Why are people so easy to go on another rebuilding effort? What would that be, 3 rebuilds in a row? Two by Kevin Lowe? Sorry, but you've got to build a team strong enough the first time. Kevin Lowe will probobly stick with this team for a long while yet. Another rebuild could mean his job is on the line.
Ya know miz - sometimes chatting to you about the oil is like having a conversation with someone who is so stoned that all they can do is respond to things you were talking about 10 minutes ago

What 3 rebuilds I'm sure you know a ton about the dys but stop it already.

This team has been building for 2004 since Lowe tookover and looks a whole lot like the canucks the year of the potvin meltdown. We all know what happened the next year - but our goaltending has been just brutal this year and our coach has even gotten himself confused with the constant changes.

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