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Old
05-02-2007, 09:42 AM
  #101
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Originally Posted by Twine Seeking Missle View Post
EXACTLY! It's NEVER the coaching. If it was the coaching, Ruff's Sabres would have been this good for the last 10 years. This year and last year they were good. They were an "ok" team for many years before that, WITH Ruff as head coach.

As far as I am concerned, coaches/managers in sports are not as important as so many make them out to be. The fact is, if you have talent on the field/ice/court, you have a much better chance to win. Joe Torre had a HORRIBLE managing record before he got to the Yanks, then BAM... 4 world series in 5 years. Why? Because he had good players. Phil Jackson had Micheal Jordan/Scottie Pippen... Bulls win world championship after world championship. Then he goes to LA and has Kobe/Shaq... wins more championships. How is Mr. Jackson doing right now with ONLY Kobe? It's all about the players
But here's the rub -- how do we know it wasn't Ruff's coaching that got them to be this good over that time? Or for that matter, how do we know Phil Jackson didn't help Jorden become the best in the world or that the homegrown clutch Yankees became that clutch because of Torre's influence? When team's are largely homegrown, or at least together for a while under one coach, there's no way of knowing how much of it's the player and how much is the coach. As for Ruff, how many of their top players are top ten or so draft picks? How many of them are guys that other teams gave up on? Pominville even cleared waivers a couple of times. Vanek aside, these are guys who always had knocks on them, and eventually blossomed into top players. Maybe it wasn't Ruff's influence that allowed that, but I don't know how you can say for sure.

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Old
05-02-2007, 09:43 AM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Fantom View Post
THen i come back to you with this gem. If it is all about players why did the rangers suck for some any years ?
How did the canes win the cup ?
How is it that teams like NJ ALWAYS play a solid game. one would think with there losses of KEy players over the years they would suck.
Well, if there is a system in place and it works, you could plug different players in there and get smiliar results, I will not agrue that. But it's simple, all things being equal, it's the players that make the real difference.

For example, lets say Ted Nolan has this Isles team that he has right now, AND the Sabres of this year. Which team do you think is going to do better?

As for the rags of a few years ago, they were not a team. All-star teams don't win. You need skill players AND role players to be successful in hockey. The rags had no role players, now they do.

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05-02-2007, 09:48 AM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Seph View Post
But here's the rub -- how do we know it wasn't Ruff's coaching that got them to be this good over that time? Or for that matter, how do we know Phil Jackson didn't help Jorden become the best in the world or that the homegrown clutch Yankees became that clutch because of Torre's influence? When team's are largely homegrown, or at least together for a while under one coach, there's no way of knowing how much of it's the player and how much is the coach. As for Ruff, how many of their top players are top ten or so draft picks? How many of them are guys that other teams gave up on? Pominville even cleared waivers a couple of times. Vanek aside, these are guys who always had knocks on them, and eventually blossomed into top players. Maybe it wasn't Ruff's influence that allowed that, but I don't know how you can say for sure.
Well, there is no way of knowing for sure, so I will have to concede that. However, young guys like Pominville, Vanek, Kotalik, Afinogenov... they ALL have the talent, and have always had the talent. Maybe it was Ruff but I am more inclined to think that those players just broke out of thier shell. It takes players time to develop. Maybe the Sabres got lucky and these guys reached thier potential in the same year. Same with Briere, the guy was always a good player but this year he was dynamite. There is really no way of knowing for sure though.

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Old
05-02-2007, 10:17 AM
  #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Twine Seeking Missle View Post
Well, there is no way of knowing for sure, so I will have to concede that. However, young guys like Pominville, Vanek, Kotalik, Afinogenov... they ALL have the talent, and have always had the talent. Maybe it was Ruff but I am more inclined to think that those players just broke out of thier shell. It takes players time to develop. Maybe the Sabres got lucky and these guys reached thier potential in the same year. Same with Briere, the guy was always a good player but this year he was dynamite. There is really no way of knowing for sure though.
Well, if we blame say, Hunter's offensive regression on Stirling, or Dipietro's lack of development on Sudsie, etc, why would you not credit Ruff for the continuing development of the guys you list? There are lots of guys with the talent that never put it together, sometimes it's them, sometimes it's the coach, sometimes it's the team, whatever, but there's no real way of telling if they would've still turned out as good or look as good or as talented, etc without factors like these.

Then again, that's the thing about a coaching award -- other than the technical things, it's so very very very subjective. And if you awarded it just on the technical things, well, Lemaire would be the true snub here, and Nolan wouldn't make the top 10.

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05-02-2007, 10:27 AM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Seph View Post
Well, if we blame say, Hunter's offensive regression on Stirling, or Dipietro's lack of development on Sudsie, etc, why would you not credit Ruff for the continuing development of the guys you list? There are lots of guys with the talent that never put it together, sometimes it's them, sometimes it's the coach, sometimes it's the team, whatever, but there's no real way of telling if they would've still turned out as good or look as good or as talented, etc without factors like these.

Then again, that's the thing about a coaching award -- other than the technical things, it's so very very very subjective. And if you awarded it just on the technical things, well, Lemaire would be the true snub here, and Nolan wouldn't make the top 10.
That very well could be. Personally, if a player is not living up to his abilities, I do not blame the coach, I blame the player. I know others might look at things differently. I never put the blame on a coach for the play of a particular player, HOWEVER, a coach IS accountable for his teams hustle and the system the team plays. If you are in the NHL, you should not have to be motivated but for some reason, thats the case with alot of players. That IS on the coach and as far as I can see, Nolan is pretty damn good at that. If the PK is failing because there is not enough puck pressure, that is also on the coach in my opinion. But as far as individual players, I really think it's up to the player.

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05-02-2007, 10:51 AM
  #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Twine Seeking Missle View Post
Well, if there is a system in place and it works, you could plug different players in there and get smiliar results, I will not agrue that. But it's simple, all things being equal, it's the players that make the real difference.

For example, lets say Ted Nolan has this Isles team that he has right now, AND the Sabres of this year. Which team do you think is going to do better?

As for the rags of a few years ago, they were not a team. All-star teams don't win. You need skill players AND role players to be successful in hockey. The rags had no role players, now they do.
THe system that would be in place comes from the coach and his staff.
On your second note. are you saying reverse the coaches for both teams ? If thats the case i think the islanders were = to buffalo and got not one but two blown calls thats killed them.
On your number 3 point you do need a team that works well as one. that is the Coaches job to make that happen. Every player in the NHl has some sort of role. its the coaches job to put them in it.

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Old
05-02-2007, 12:47 PM
  #107
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I'm a little surprised that so much has been made of the Ruff and Therrien nominations for the Adams, yet none of Alain Vigneault from Vancouver.

I feel the Ruff nomination is justified, because the team consisted of a bunch of upstart players last year that pulled off some upsets in last year's playoffs. And as many of us in Islander country know, it is a challenge to take that type of team (a low-seed playoff qualifier) and get them to the next level. They absolutely ran roughshod over the league this year, clinching a playoff spot in early March I think, and taking the President's Trophy with mostly the same roster from last season. I think that's worthy of Adams consideration.

Therrien is also justified. There were a lot of people, including myself, who thought the Penguins were still a year away before making the playoffs or becoming a legitimate Atlantic Division threat. Yet with about 4 games left in the regular season, they were right in the hunt for the division title. As it was said earlier, yeah it helps to have the talent of Crosby, Malkin, Staal, and others, but it's also important to give the kids proper direction, and assist them in getting through the grind of an 82-game season. I personally think the award is Therrien's to lose.

As for Vigneault, maybe they just wanted to get a Western Conference nominee in there. I realize they were one of 7 teams in the West to end up with over 100 points and won the Northwest Division, but to me, they ended up about where I would have expected them in the standings. Outside of Ohlund and Salo, their defense could be considered a little questionable, but Luongo more than makes up for that, and they have a couple of high-powered forward lines, so it's not like Vigneault is working with a bare cupboard here. Nolan should definitely be in this spot, although if you had to put a Western Conference candidate here, I'd place Jacques Lemaire from Minnesota above Vigneault.

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05-02-2007, 12:53 PM
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Twine Seeking Missle View Post
I don't have a link but I did read that in a few pre-season publications. Nolan was'nt talking out of his ass on this one. Dang, wish I had a link.
I have us 15th in the Eastern in Hockey News. I can try to scan it, but I don't have a link for it. It was the season preview. I believe TSN had us in the same position as well.

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Old
05-02-2007, 01:19 PM
  #109
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Nolan was NOT going to be nominated after his critisim's of the league and its officials late this year.

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Old
05-02-2007, 03:27 PM
  #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Twine Seeking Missle View Post
EXACTLY! It's NEVER the coaching. If it was the coaching, Ruff's Sabres would have been this good for the last 10 years. This year and last year they were good. They were an "ok" team for many years before that, WITH Ruff as head coach.
But reality is, you can't diminish the part Ruff has played.

A) Prior to the current roster he has, the Ruff-lead Sabres made it to the SC Finals, nearly winning. And the year thereafter they qualified for the PO's as well.

B) Then management decided to go through a rebuild, via youth. Paring down the roster (e.g. Stu Barnes, Peca trade). The team went through 2 lean years, barely missing the PO's in both. And finally the plan came to fruition as their younger assets emerged. One has to believe that Ruff was an integral part in molding those young players to fit his attacking brand of hockey. It should aslo be noted that Briere developed under Ruff's tutelage.

Also, credit Ruff for integrating a hodge podge mix of players to adhere to his system. That in itself deserves props, same goes for Therrien.

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05-02-2007, 10:34 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by BelovedIsles View Post
But reality is, you can't diminish the part Ruff has played.

A) Prior to the current roster he has, the Ruff-lead Sabres made it to the SC Finals, nearly winning. And the year thereafter they qualified for the PO's as well.

B) Then management decided to go through a rebuild, via youth. Paring down the roster (e.g. Stu Barnes, Peca trade). The team went through 2 lean years, barely missing the PO's in both. And finally the plan came to fruition as their younger assets emerged. One has to believe that Ruff was an integral part in molding those young players to fit his attacking brand of hockey. It should aslo be noted that Briere developed under Ruff's tutelage.

Also, credit Ruff for integrating a hodge podge mix of players to adhere to his system. That in itself deserves props, same goes for Therrien.
Gotta agree, BI. I think it's a bit unrealistic (no offense to Twine) to say that if it was Ruff they'd have always been this good. As you note, the team has gone through rebuilds. Also, part of being a good coach is developing players and helping them reach their potential -- that's not an overnight process. Witness, e.g., the lean years the Isles had under Arbour before they learned how to win. And just like Arbour should not be considered less of a coach for having had a team full of all-stars to oversee, I don't think Ruff's impact should be minimized because the Sabres have so many good players -- in fact, I'd say the opposite is closer to the truth, the Sabres have so many good players because Ruff is good. As an example that hits closer to home, compare the years DiPietro had under Stirling and Lavvy to his finally breaking out under a good head coach in Nolan and without the "tutelage" of "Sudsie." Amazing what a real coach and goalie coach can do for a player's development.

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