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So where the HELL is rock bottom?

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Old
12-21-2003, 08:26 PM
  #26
gretzky2kurri
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LoudmouthHemskyfan#1
GO G2K GO!

RANT RANT RANT!

My typing fingers needed a rest!
ooooooooh....nooooooo.

I'm trying to steer clear of ranting in this thread. One of lifes many challenges.

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12-21-2003, 08:29 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Hawkalyzer
rock bottom is when ur owner is Bill Wirtz
your GM: Bob Pullhard
your coach refuses to let his young forwards play offense
your head scout:Michael Dumas, aka the draft joker

ur quite far from rock bottom, trust me
This is the 1st post that actually made me want to try and count our Oilers' blessings while laughing out loud and long in merriment!

But remember your own blessing Hawkalyzer, your owner has much deeper pockets than our community owners and in Wirtz's pockets therein resides American greenback$. The Black Hawk hockey tribe are guaranteed to rampage again after the NHL work stoppage. Until and unless a favourable New CBA comes to exists to level the competitve ice, there is no such guarantee the Oilers won't slip quietly away into the night.


Last edited by OYLer: 12-22-2003 at 07:50 AM.
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Old
12-21-2003, 09:11 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by looooob
Hoz....the Flames are using three or four rookie forwards (Kobasew,Lombardi,Betts-when healthy, Morgan-although he's old) plus Saprykin...on defence the Flames have no-one older than 27, and often go with 3 23 year olds...the Oilers have 4 30 year old defenceman.

yes the Flames have some vets, definitely more than Edmonton--but it's not as extreme as you suggest
Good call Loober, plus Iginla gets a full 6 minutes more of ice-time than Donovan a game. Is it Sutter's fault Donovan can score all of the sudden?

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Old
12-21-2003, 09:13 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gretzky2kurri
I'm just dying to know...

NO MORE OUTDOOR HOCKEY GAMES!!!
So it's been killing you a bit too, to have to wonder if there is a bedrock of character within the Oilers' dressing room? Eventually these guys are going to start casting off that performance anxiety and get focused enough to play with positive intensity.

But the whole Oilers' organization has to take a long look into that mirror mirror on the wall, and know for sure, they are not the fairest ones at all. Because if there is any beauty there at all, it's been snoozing out back in that stinky chicken's coup or maybe in the barn which hasn't been mucked out for some time now! The fans grow restless as the aroma from the bottom remains still to reek while that bitterly cold PP continues to yellow the snow.

One hates to be, the disturber of the manure pile, but our two biggest bodies at forward seem ripe for the trade! Izzy seems not to want to blister his knuckles, and Big Georges performs his role too ceremoniously to really intimidate. Sure Raffi elbowed that Sedin in the chops but it was a penalty worth the time spent in the box!

Boy did the 'Oil' ever catch that Heritage COLD, then bottle it up, so as not to get even slightly warm since the Classic cooled their jets.


Last edited by OYLer: 12-22-2003 at 07:49 AM.
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Old
12-21-2003, 11:10 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gretzky2kurri
I was gonna mention his skewed info too. There were just too many other things to say to him.

Please excuse our man from "pixieland".
I don't pick on your posts. You really have a tough time dealing with someone willing to debate you don't you? You resort to juvenile comments and cheap shots, like above. If you don't like that I am willing to debate your rants then stop posting them. Or better yet, grow up. When you do I will talk to you.

Now....

You never answered the question. What did you expect from this team? Could it be that your expectation didn't meet with reality?

AND yes you are hung up on Calgary. I didn't say like them. I said hung up on them. With every Cowville win and Oiler loss you get more shrill.

As for me. Comfortable? Ah....no.Just, not surprised

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Old
12-21-2003, 11:23 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by looooob
Hoz....the Flames are using three or four rookie forwards (Kobasew,Lombardi,Betts-when healthy, Morgan-although he's old) plus Saprykin...on defence the Flames have no-one older than 27, and often go with 3 23 year olds...the Oilers have 4 30 year old defenceman.

yes the Flames have some vets, definitely more than Edmonton--but it's not as extreme as you suggest
Well looooob. I didn't think I was being extreme.

Your forward lines a chalked full of vets.

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Old
12-22-2003, 12:00 AM
  #32
gretzky2kurri
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HOZ
AND yes you are hung up on Calgary. I didn't say like them. I said hung up on them. With every Cowville win and Oiler loss you get more shrill
Oh really HOZ?

I would REALLY like to see you back this one up. I beleive it's the first time this season I have EVER mentioned the recent success of the Flames.

So tell me HOZ, no......tell us HOZ........how the hell do you come to this conclusion? Seriously, I'm dying to know what makes you think this.

Talk about a big heaping pile of fabricated BS.

Take a hike buddy.....

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Old
12-22-2003, 12:22 AM
  #33
gretzky2kurri
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HOZ
Well looooob. I didn't think I was being extreme.

Your forward lines a chalked full of vets.
Yes 4 players over 30 years old.......Dave Lowry (38) Conroy (32) Gelinas (33) McAmmond (30).

These four have scored 16 of the 76 goals for the Flames thus far.

Yes it's all crystal clear now. Lotsa vets with lots of talent. Kinda mirrors the Detroit Red Wings doesn't it?

Oilers have 4 players over 30 on defence. 2 of them are the top pairing in Staios and Smith.


Last edited by gretzky2kurri: 12-22-2003 at 12:41 AM.
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Old
12-22-2003, 12:38 AM
  #34
gretzky2kurri
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HOZ
You never answered the question. What did you expect from this team? Could it be that your expectation didn't meet with reality?
Okay HOZ, I'll play your silly game.

Yes for ONCE you are right about me. Thus far reality has not met my expectations.

Apparently to you..........this is a violation............or something.

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Old
12-22-2003, 01:11 AM
  #35
gretzky2kurri
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HOZ
I don't pick on your posts. You really have a tough time dealing with someone willing to debate you don't you? You resort to juvenile comments and cheap shots, like above. If you don't like that I am willing to debate your rants then stop posting them. Or better yet, grow up. When you do I will talk to you.
For starters HOZ, this thread wasn't a rant. Go back to my original post (thread starter) or any other post in this thread for that matter. Where do I rant about the coaching staff? Where do I rant about the forwards? Where do I rant about the defense? Where do I rant about the PK? Where do I rant about the PP? Where do I rant about the goaltending?

Where oh where....the...hell...is...the...rant......HOZ? My ONLY rant is about people that SEEM to have a hard time reading. And you were not alone.

I came in here wanting to hear if people thought the team had hit rock bottom or if they were about to (and when). And what may happen as a result of it, i.e pulling together and fighting their way out of the basement.

Then of course HOZ has to come riding in on his white horse with bugle in hand, and get all over me about my "expectations". (huh?) Then accuse me of being "hung up" on Calgarys success. (TOTAL FABRICATION) And THEN you ask me if I thought they were going to "set the league on fire" (get serious dude)

I set out to find out some opinions and you bombard me with this crap? What the hell did you expect?

Face it, you came in here looking for a scrap.....and when you got one your all, "oh look....he's being mean to me and firing cheap-shots."

To me a great example of a CHEAP-SHOT is when you fabricate something that has ZERO merit behind it about a fellow posters opinions.



(I'm still sifting through past posts of mine trying to figure out how you come to this BS conclusion)


Last edited by gretzky2kurri: 12-22-2003 at 01:39 AM.
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Old
12-22-2003, 01:26 AM
  #36
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First off, Rock Bottom is a very good KISS tune.

Secondly, my guess would be that the Oilers will hit it during the holidays. I will be surprise if they beat Cgy and shocked if they beat Vcr in Vcr. This is a team that has nothing going for them right now, apart from maybe a surprise in nets in the form of Conklin.

Let's face it, the special teams aren't helping things. They are a bad team when it comes to killing penalties and scoring on the PP. I don't know about you guys, but there is nothing more frustrating thean seeing the OIlers look like fools on 2 or 3 PP in a row, and then the other team comes back and score on their first chance. To me, rock bottom is right now because they are losing games due to their shoddy special teams, not necessarily because they suck in general.

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Old
12-22-2003, 02:46 AM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. van Nostrin
First off, Rock Bottom is a very good KISS tune.

Secondly, my guess would be that the Oilers will hit it during the holidays. I will be surprise if they beat Cgy and shocked if they beat Vcr in Vcr. This is a team that has nothing going for them right now, apart from maybe a surprise in nets in the form of Conklin.

Let's face it, the special teams aren't helping things. They are a bad team when it comes to killing penalties and scoring on the PP. I don't know about you guys, but there is nothing more frustrating thean seeing the OIlers look like fools on 2 or 3 PP in a row, and then the other team comes back and score on their first chance. To me, rock bottom is right now because they are losing games due to their shoddy special teams, not necessarily because they suck in general.
Indeed I will agree (in my most non-ranting fashion) that I will also be shocked if they beat the Flames and surprised if they take Vcr in their barn.

Merily because currently their elevators are going up, while ours is going down.

Although Vcr has more points and firepower.........I feel beating the Flames will present a bigger challenge.

The bottom is near. And as dumb as it sounds....I can't wait. I'm pretty sure they are gonna bounce back with a vengeance once they are playing more for their own self-pride and build some confidence.

Don't get me wrong. I don't feel the Oilers play without pride. But the more embarrassed they become....the more they will have to prove.

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Old
12-22-2003, 05:32 AM
  #38
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I am starting to think that rock bottom will be finishing last, picking 3rd after loosing the lotery and then picking another Swiss Miss. Usually I am confident that eventually they will turn it around, they always have these 10 bad games where they look like Pitt and then 10 where they look like Stars in their prime. We can debate what the problem is but we could count on them hitting the up cycle usually. But I think there are some real problems in the dressing room just now. The players are not listening to the coaches, and lacking vets on the ice we count on leadership from the glory years coaching staff more than other teams in the league do. When you see Smyth just going through the motions there is really something wrong. Something really bad happened within this team after the playoffs last year. Whatever it was it has torn this team apart. This is not something that can be fixed with a few minor tweakings, radical change is necessary. By the way, Rock Bottom is also encapsulated in poor Jani Rita, he has done pretty much everything we have asked but still cant get a shot.

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Old
12-22-2003, 06:41 AM
  #39
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rock bottom is when Edmonton doesn't earn a win in the next 5 games

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Old
12-22-2003, 06:59 AM
  #40
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I'm going to be a contrarian here and say this isn't anywhere near rock-bottom for two reasons:
-this is a very young team that will mess up and be inconsistent, like anything you do when you're young
-rock bottom is a team with no hope and no direction, and while things look grim for making the playoffs, I think this team has hope and direction-everything points to a better future for post-2004.

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Old
12-22-2003, 07:32 AM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HOZ
Well looooob. I didn't think I was being extreme.

Your forward lines a chalked full of vets.
well I guess.

what you said was:And since you are hung up on Cowville's success

Calgary have veterans at every position. Top positions. Do they have as many sophmores in their line-up as the Oilers? Nope. Rookies? Nope.

Sutter does wonders with veteran hard-working teams



I guess I'd say define "top positions". Your defence is older than Calgarys(I'm too lazy to do the math, but I'm guessing 2 to 3 years average age difference), your goaltending is about the same (Salo is 30+ and experienced, Conklin mid 20s...for Calgary McLennan is 30+ and career backup, Kiprusoff mid 20s). At center (another top position) you have a 40 year old man playing there...with Conroy out we have no-one over 30. I'll concede we have more older wingers than you. The Flames have used at least 7 rookies or sophmores this year. I'm sure the Oilers have used more...but the Flames aren't the 1967 Leafs either

Players born in the 1980s:
Calgary 7 (Lombardi,Leopold,Saprykin,Kobasew,Regehr,Betts,Sa bourin)
Edmonton 6 (Hemsky,Torres,Bergeron,Stoll,Semenov,Salmaleinen)

Players over 30
Calgary 7(Gelinas,McAmmond,Conroy,Oliwa,Lowry,Mclennan,Tur ek)
Edmonton 6 (Smith,Staois,Cross,Ferguson,Oates,Salo)

It's not that different. Essentially I think the 'Sutter loves old players' thing is a myth. I think it was probably true of Sutter the coach in San jose, because he knows old players make less mistakes, so its easier to keep your job and win. Sutter has job security now, and Sutter the GM realizes that if Calgary is going to rebuild properly we need to start developing young players

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12-22-2003, 06:28 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by looooob
well I guess.

what you said was:And since you are hung up on Cowville's success

Calgary have veterans at every position. Top positions. Do they have as many sophmores in their line-up as the Oilers? Nope. Rookies? Nope.

Sutter does wonders with veteran hard-working teams



I guess I'd say define "top positions". Your defence is older than Calgarys(I'm too lazy to do the math, but I'm guessing 2 to 3 years average age difference), your goaltending is about the same (Salo is 30+ and experienced, Conklin mid 20s...for Calgary McLennan is 30+ and career backup, Kiprusoff mid 20s). At center (another top position) you have a 40 year old man playing there...with Conroy out we have no-one over 30. I'll concede we have more older wingers than you. The Flames have used at least 7 rookies or sophmores this year. I'm sure the Oilers have used more...but the Flames aren't the 1967 Leafs either

Players born in the 1980s:
Calgary 7 (Lombardi,Leopold,Saprykin,Kobasew,Regehr,Betts,Sa bourin)
Edmonton 6 (Hemsky,Torres,Bergeron,Stoll,Semenov,Salmaleinen)

Players over 30
Calgary 7(Gelinas,McAmmond,Conroy,Oliwa,Lowry,Mclennan,Tur ek)
Edmonton 6 (Smith,Staois,Cross,Ferguson,Oates,Salo)

It's not that different. Essentially I think the 'Sutter loves old players' thing is a myth. I think it was probably true of Sutter the coach in San jose, because he knows old players make less mistakes, so its easier to keep your job and win. Sutter has job security now, and Sutter the GM realizes that if Calgary is going to rebuild properly we need to start developing young players
I'm too lazy to do the math as well, but I agree. Calgary has a nice core of defenders reaching their prime.

But the Calgary 'go to' guys are definitely older. Conroy (now hurt), Gelinas, Donovan , McAmmond, and Yelle. The Oilers couldn't begin to compete with the defensive know-how in that group.

As for Sutter's 'love of older player' ...I don't think that. He loves hardworking teams. 150% night-in, night-out teams. And those types of teams are invarably veteran/ defensive/ plugger type teams.

Skilled players like Selanne don't do well. He is the (OHL) Kilrey of the NHL.

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Old
12-22-2003, 09:38 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HOZ
I'm too lazy to do the math as well, but I agree. Calgary has a nice core of defenders reaching their prime.

But the Calgary 'go to' guys are definitely older. Conroy (now hurt), Gelinas, Donovan , McAmmond, and Yelle. The Oilers couldn't begin to compete with the defensive know-how in that group.

As for Sutter's 'love of older player' ...I don't think that. He loves hardworking teams. 150% night-in, night-out teams. And those types of teams are invarably veteran/ defensive/ plugger type teams.

Skilled players like Selanne don't do well. He is the (OHL) Kilrey of the NHL.
Hey I don't mean to start a Flame (hey I couldn't resist) war, but if those are the Flame go to players, we would be hooped. I mean those guys are important, but not go to, and I very much agree they can't compare defensively and thats the problem IMO. The Oiler defense must step up, happy holidays.

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12-22-2003, 10:29 PM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by looooob
well I guess.

what you said was:And since you are hung up on Cowville's success

Calgary have veterans at every position. Top positions. Do they have as many sophmores in their line-up as the Oilers? Nope. Rookies? Nope.

Sutter does wonders with veteran hard-working teams



I guess I'd say define "top positions". Your defence is older than Calgarys(I'm too lazy to do the math, but I'm guessing 2 to 3 years average age difference), your goaltending is about the same (Salo is 30+ and experienced, Conklin mid 20s...for Calgary McLennan is 30+ and career backup, Kiprusoff mid 20s). At center (another top position) you have a 40 year old man playing there...with Conroy out we have no-one over 30. I'll concede we have more older wingers than you. The Flames have used at least 7 rookies or sophmores this year. I'm sure the Oilers have used more...but the Flames aren't the 1967 Leafs either

Players born in the 1980s:
Calgary 7 (Lombardi,Leopold,Saprykin,Kobasew,Regehr,Betts,Sa bourin)
Edmonton 6 (Hemsky,Torres,Bergeron,Stoll,Semenov,Salmaleinen)

Players over 30
Calgary 7(Gelinas,McAmmond,Conroy,Oliwa,Lowry,Mclennan,Tur ek)
Edmonton 6 (Smith,Staois,Cross,Ferguson,Oates,Salo)

It's not that different. Essentially I think the 'Sutter loves old players' thing is a myth. I think it was probably true of Sutter the coach in San jose, because he knows old players make less mistakes, so its easier to keep your job and win. Sutter has job security now, and Sutter the GM realizes that if Calgary is going to rebuild properly we need to start developing young players
It's more than age - it's experience. Looking at the games played in the NHL shows that Calgary has a lot more experience.

Edmonton has more players with less than a full seasons worth of NHL experience.

When Calgary added depth players - they added players like Donovan, McAmmond and Ference. Those players are depth guys but they have plenty of NHL experience.

Calgary also has players with lots of positive playoff experience. Lowry, Warrener, Gelinas, Yelle and Reinprecht have all been deep in the playoffs. Edmonton has Oates. Calgary has made the effort to import winners.

It looks like Calgary went with proven commodities with a few choice kids thrown in. As long as the kids (Saprykin, Kobasew, Leopold and Lombardi) develop it makes sense. Edmonton went with players with more potential (perhaps) but less experience. It doesn't look to be paying off so far.

What is interesting is the development of the kids. The only way either Calgary or Edmonton is going to win a Cup is if they develop some impact youngsters. Does Calgary hinder the development of their kids by using vets or do the kids benefit from decreased responsibility and support? Do the Oiler youngsters learn from the extra ice and responsibilty or do they bust from lack of support and leadership?

It's an interesting contrast.

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12-23-2003, 01:52 AM
  #45
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look HOZ, looob, kreuzer its as simple as this.

Suter makes his team work hard and in a system.

yup thats it nothing to do with vets or pets or anything simply the players listen to Suter and give a damn.

As for g2k's actual point of this thread its hard to say since they are always in a cycle, however there always is one point every year. To be honest this year it might come sooner since the management is being put under pressure so they might try and force something. If i were to have a guess, hmm after the first wild game if they have gone under .500 heads will roll.

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12-23-2003, 07:40 AM
  #46
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rock bottom for the oilers...

they hit it on saturday. the oilers can't possibly be worse than they were against vancouver.

but does hitting rock bottom mean that they will automatically improve? i don't think so. i think a team can scrape their collective bellies along "rock bottom" for quite a while. just because things "can't get worse" doesn't doesn't mean they "can't stay really, really bad".

i expect that they will lose the next four games in a row and be logically out of the playoffs come the new year.

for the first time in my life i will attend an oilers game with a bag on my head tonight.

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12-23-2003, 01:07 PM
  #47
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Two thoughts on this team right now.

This team is hurting from what it has lacked the most the last 5 years - an impact player. Keep this team intact and add Rick Nash, Ilya Kovalchuk, Danny Heatley (pre-accident) or Marion Gaborik and see where this team goes. What it has lacked the most is one solid scoring line, ala Canucks back in the 2002 season. Get something like that going and the rest of these guys can relax a bit more out there. Or find a goalie who can let in nothing more than a goal or two a game, game in game out for the next month. This team needs someone to take charge and win some games out right like CuJo used to do for us.

What this all means is either somewhere on this roster a couple of guys band together and form a dynamite line that wins a couple of games and leads us out of this slump and continues to score to finish the season. If this happens I can honestly say the Oilers have more scoring talent on the second and third lines than the Canucks had back in 2002 (although now the Canucks have found some additional scorers).

The other option for this team is to remain mired in hard work netting no results for the next couple of months, finish in the bottom 5 in the league and hope to hell that they win the lottery and draft Ovechkin. Keep the roster in tact (minus a couple of tweaks) and go from there.

Hopefully they either go way up or way down. No need to finish middle of the pack - again.

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Old
12-23-2003, 07:52 PM
  #48
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well to me after tonights loss against the flames i think rock bottom will be if we lose to vancouver again especially if we are shutout again. i am beginning to wonder if lowe really has any patience left, maybe he is waiting until after christmas before reading the riot act.

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