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Rumor: Phoneix 1st for Montoya and Prucha

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Old
05-15-2007, 10:17 AM
  #101
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Originally Posted by AgentNaslund View Post
wow Phoenix is screwing themselves pretty good. Prucha will just be another failure added to Phoenix. Career 2nd line winger and number 1 goalie, for future superstar foward? I dont see it happening.
Good luck winning a lot of 8-7 games.

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05-15-2007, 11:13 AM
  #102
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
Good luck winning a lot of 8-7 games.
Montoya is a nice prospect who might, who even seems likely to, develope into a good goalie in the NHL. But to say that if Phoenix does not get him they are doomed to never have a servicable goalie is ludicrous. I know that it is a stretch that requires a huge leap of faith, but phoenix fans can pray that somewhere, somehow, in the next few years before they really are competing for something (and a player like Kane is there to help) they just may somewhere other than a trade with the Rangers find a goalie that does not suck, or dare I may dream, is actually servicable and perhaps even good. Even without trading with the Rangers the Coyotes may just dare to dream of keeping their GA under 8.

As a ps, I will reiterate what I said earlier about the deal. It is not as off the wall as it may have initially sounded. One of the few deals that seems to work for both teams. I do believe that Phoenix on the surface gets the better talent, though that depends on how whoever is number 3 developes. But the Rangers get a potential star player, not franchise (I do not see any of those this draft) but legit star, in exchange for two spare parts. The spare part part keeps the value down some. Everyone knows Montoya is odd man out and likely never will start for NY. True, a franchise needing a goalie will give value, but it does limit it some. And Prucha has seemed in the NY doghouse for over a year now and has been shopped before. Again limiting value. Getting a potential star and number 3 pick for spare parts? Not off the wall at all.


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05-15-2007, 11:16 AM
  #103
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why would the rangers give up so much ?
this makes no sense to me. Montoya should be worth a1st pick alone no ?

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05-15-2007, 11:21 AM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Fantom View Post
why would the rangers give up so much ?
this makes no sense to me. Montoya should be worth a1st pick alone no ?
Montoya would never in a billion years bring a top three pick. Maybe a lower middle to lower first but never a top three pick. Hence adding other odd many out Prucha who seems to be an icing on the cake throw in to brdige mid first to top first.

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05-15-2007, 11:30 AM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Jaded-Fan View Post
Montoya would never in a billion years bring a top three pick. Maybe a lower middle to lower first but never a top three pick. Hence adding other odd many out Prucha who seems to be an icing on the cake throw in to brdige mid first to top first.
i am sorry, but you are over valuing a pick. monty is worth a top 3 pick without a doubt. he it one of the top 3 goalie prospects out there, and without a doubt took the step between college and the pros....a step that the current players being drafted haven't taken yet.

if monty was somehow in this draft, i can easily see pheonix take him third

and a 25 goals a year player does not bring a mid to a 1st. it is a overpayment which in my mind means something else has to come back. maybe a third round pick

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05-15-2007, 11:34 AM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Jaded-Fan View Post
Montoya would never in a billion years bring a top three pick. Maybe a lower middle to lower first but never a top three pick. Hence adding other odd many out Prucha who seems to be an icing on the cake throw in to brdige mid first to top first.
He was drafted at #6. He has since won 50 games in the AHL. He's closer to being a NHL goalie now than he was when he was drafted.

To throw in a guy who scored 52 goals in his first two NHL seassons while not playing full minutes or full seasons is a huge overpayment.

A top 3 pick is still no lock to make it to the NHL. And if that pick did make it, I would be hard to be disappointed with 30 and 22 goals in the first two seasons.

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05-15-2007, 11:41 AM
  #107
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
He was drafted at #6. He has since won 50 games in the AHL. He's closer to being a NHL goalie now than he was when he was drafted.

To throw in a guy who scored 52 goals in his first two NHL seassons while not playing full minutes or full seasons is a huge overpayment.

A top 3 pick is still no lock to make it to the NHL. And if that pick did make it, I would be hard to be disappointed with 30 and 22 goals in the first two seasons.
I am not disagreeing per se. I did not think that Jack Johnson got the Canes back value either. For whatever reason the Rangers seem to have soured on Prucha and if the smoke was to be believed were actively shopping him last season, with presumably no takers at any reasonable price. My comments are based on that reading between the lines and those assumptions. If I read wrong and Prucha is a central part of the Rangers' plans, then no way this deal happens.

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05-15-2007, 11:47 AM
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
He was drafted at #6. He has since won 50 games in the AHL. He's closer to being a NHL goalie now than he was when he was drafted.
One of my issues with spending a high draft pick on a goalie is that goalies don't carry the trade vaule that skaters do.

While Montoya was picked higher than Staal, his trade value is lower, because tems need 6 defenseman as opposed to just one goalie.

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05-15-2007, 11:48 AM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Jaded-Fan View Post
I am not disagreeing per se. I did not think that Jack Johnson got the Canes back value either. For whatever reason the Rangers seem to have soured on Prucha and if the smoke was to be believed were actively shopping him last season, with presumably no takers at any reasonable price. My comments are based on that reading between the lines and those assumptions. If I read wrong and Prucha is a central part of the Rangers' plans, then no way this deal happens.
I don't they have soured on him. I do think they believe he is a player who has trade value that they feel they can deal. He's not going to be given away. The Rangers have good depth when it comes to young wings. They are very thin at center.

The deal as proposed is a #1 pick who has had professional success and a 30,20 goal scorer for one player who is no lock to make it.

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05-15-2007, 11:51 AM
  #110
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
I don't they have soured on him. I do think they believe he is a player who has trade value that they feel they can deal. He's not going to be given away. The Rangers have good depth when it comes to young wings. They are very thin at center.

The deal as proposed is a #1 pick who has had professional success and a 30,20 goal scorer for one player who is no lock to make it.
You do agree though that Montoya alone would not garner the number three pick even in this diluted at the top draft, right? I just think that if NY really wants to make the deal they would have to make an offer similar to this. I agree with you that they very well may not be interested at all in making the deal and the rumor may be total BS.

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05-15-2007, 11:53 AM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Jaded-Fan View Post
You do agree though that Montoya alone would not garner the number three pick even in this diluted at the top draft, right? I just think that if NY really wants to make the deal they would have to make an offer similar to this. I agree with you that they very well may not be interested at all in making the deal and the rumor may be total BS.
i disagree....in a diluted draft, monty is worth more, and a top 3 imo

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05-15-2007, 11:54 AM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Jaded-Fan View Post
You do agree though that Montoya alone would not garner the number three pick even in this diluted at the top draft, right? I just think that if NY really wants to make the deal they would have to make an offer similar to this. I agree with you that they very well may not be interested at all in making the deal and the rumor may be total BS.
I don't think Montoya alone does it. But from a Ranger POV, I don't add a whole lot more. Not the Rangers' #1, not Prucha.

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05-15-2007, 12:13 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Jaded-Fan View Post
I am not disagreeing per se. I did not think that Jack Johnson got the Canes back value either. For whatever reason the Rangers seem to have soured on Prucha and if the smoke was to be believed were actively shopping him last season, with presumably no takers at any reasonable price. My comments are based on that reading between the lines and those assumptions. If I read wrong and Prucha is a central part of the Rangers' plans, then no way this deal happens.
The Jack Johnson deal is a different story. Jim Rutherford publically declared him available if he found the right deal, thus lowering his trade value. He shot himself in the foot. Jack Johnson should have been used as part of a package to bring back a defenseman on the Pronger/Lidstrom/Niedermayer level.

Who knows what will happen with Prucha at this point. All I can tell you is that he's not being dealt because he sucks. He's being dealt because we have a surplus of wingers - Callahan, Dawes, and maybe even Korpikoski - who can step in either this year - Callahan the most likely to do so - or the next and produce like Prucha.

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Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan View Post
One of my issues with spending a high draft pick on a goalie is that goalies don't carry the trade vaule that skaters do.

While Montoya was picked higher than Staal, his trade value is lower, because tems need 6 defenseman as opposed to just one goalie.
While I agree with you, I also disagree.

It takes defenders a longer time to develop, and goaltenders can come in and have a better rate of success. While Staal can be with the team as a regular next year, Montoya could come in the year after and have more of an affect with the team in his 1st year than Staal will in his first 2 seasons combined, and that's where Montoya gets showcased.

This draft is one of the weaker drafts in recent years, and I think had Monty been in this draft, he'd be a top 3 pick.

Hell, Marc-Andre Fleury was picked over Eric Staal, so the whole skater over goaltender value theory can be thrown out the window. It goes by what franchise needs what, and that is the premise for this potential/hypothetical deal between the Rangers and 'Yotes.

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05-15-2007, 01:16 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by GretzNYR99 View Post
While I agree with you, I also disagree.

It takes defenders a longer time to develop, and goaltenders can come in and have a better rate of success. While Staal can be with the team as a regular next year, Montoya could come in the year after and have more of an affect with the team in his 1st year than Staal will in his first 2 seasons combined, and that's where Montoya gets showcased.

This draft is one of the weaker drafts in recent years, and I think had Monty been in this draft, he'd be a top 3 pick.

Hell, Marc-Andre Fleury was picked over Eric Staal, so the whole skater over goaltender value theory can be thrown out the window. It goes by what franchise needs what, and that is the premise for this potential/hypothetical deal between the Rangers and 'Yotes.
Montoya and Stall are probably both top 2-5 propsepcts at theit position

Which is more likely ???

Montoya a franchise goalie or Staal a #1 defenseman ??

Montoya a starting goalie or Staal a top pairing defenseman ??

Montoya a serviceable goalie/backup or Staal 3-5 defenseman ??

Montoya a bust or Staal a bust ??

Yes, the Penguins took Fleury over Staal, IMO it was a mistake .

Also remember I'm talking about trade values and goalies in a trade just don't command the value that skaters do. It's about supply and demand

If Staal Sather sends a fax out to the 29 GM's saying that Staal and Montyos are both available, all 29 GM's are placing a call and are interested in Staal.

That isn't the case for Montoya. Now some GM's may value him higher, but there will be teams that aren't interested: Vancouver, Montreal, Calgary, New Jersey, etc.

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05-15-2007, 04:05 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
He was drafted at #6. He has since won 50 games in the AHL. He's closer to being a NHL goalie now than he was when he was drafted.

A top 3 pick is still no lock to make it to the NHL. And if that pick did make it, I would be hard to be disappointed with 30 and 22 goals in the first two seasons.
Montoya is hardly any more of a lock either with 0 games in the NHL. Nor would it be astonishing for the pick to score 25 goals as a 23 year old.

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i disagree....in a diluted draft, monty is worth more, and a top 3 imo
Monty WAS drafted in a diluted draft and not in the top 3.

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05-15-2007, 04:08 PM
  #116
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I like the deal for the Coyotes because most of our top prospects are nearly NHL ready. Kane, Turris, and JvR could take some time. Voracek isn't really what we need. Prucha scores goals. We need that. Montoya stops pucks. We need that.

Can we have Benoit Allaire back, too? Seeing as how he left the Coyotes because he was outraged that they didn't take his recommendation, and draft Montoya, maybe he'll want to follow Al back home.

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05-15-2007, 04:16 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by Gwyddbwyll View Post
Montoya is hardly any more of a lock either with 0 games in the NHL. Nor would it be astonishing for the pick to score 25 goals as a 23 year old.



Monty WAS drafted in a diluted draft and not in the top 3.
Montoya is near NHL ready. He's been an All Star in the AHL. And has won 20+ games in back to back winning seasons.

Never said it would be astonishing for the #3 pick to score 25 goals. I said you'd happily take it.

A diluted draft? How so? He was drafted after guys like Ozechkin and Malkin. There is not an Ovechkin or a Malkin in this year's draft. Montoya's draft year was also deeper than this year's class.

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05-15-2007, 04:23 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
Montoya is near NHL ready. He's been an All Star in the AHL. And has won 20+ games in back to back winning seasons.
The Coyotes have David LeNeveu, who tore up college and the AHL, but was a total disappointment to his NHL coaching staff. That's why Montoya's accomplishments, thus far, will be a tough sell to Coyotes fans.

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05-15-2007, 04:28 PM
  #119
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The Coyotes have David LeNeveu, who tore up college and the AHL, but was a total disappointment to his NHL coaching staff. That's why Montoya's accomplishments, thus far, will be a tough sell to Coyotes fans.
For how long? I think if he doesn't earn the job this training camp, he'll be traded and I'll be pissed but I hope it would be to a team where he'll have a chance.

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05-15-2007, 04:37 PM
  #120
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LeNeveu Stats

03-04 Springfield Falcons AHL 16-19-3 2.76 .917

04-05 Utah Grizzlies AHL 11-32-3 2.93 .909

05-06 San Antonio Rampage AHL 10-16-2 2.92 .921

06-07 San Antonio Rampage AHL 7 -2 2.97 2.97 .907

how does these stats = tore up the AHL??

Monty Stats

2005-06 Hartford Wolf Pack AHL 23-9-1 2.61 0.907

2006-07 Hartford Wolf Pack AHL 27-17-0 2.30 0.914

al has 50 wins in 2 seasons....your boy had 44 through 3 and 9 games of another.

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05-15-2007, 04:39 PM
  #121
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For how long? I think if he doesn't earn the job this training camp, he'll be traded and I'll be pissed but I hope it would be to a team where he'll have a chance.
My point was that LeNeveu's failure here (whether it was his own doing, or not) has likely jaded us Coyotes fans to a point of greater skeptisism regarding goalies who aren't proven at the NHL level.

As far as Lenny haning around goes, I'm not sure what the point would be. Wayne Gretzky obviously has it out for the kid, so I we might as well move him before his value gets any lower. I really wonder what the cause of Wayne's resentment towards Lenny really is. It can't possibly be his play. David wasn't great, but he wasn't terrible either, and he certainly showed alot of potential. I know alot of Coyotes posters think that I'm not a LeNeveu fan because I don't think he's part of our future. That's not true. I think he will be a good goalie in this league. I just don't think it will be in Phoenix. There seems to be a personal issue between LeNeveu and Wayne Gretzky that we don't know about.

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05-15-2007, 04:43 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by Nich View Post

how does these stats = tore up the AHL??

al has 50 wins in 2 seasons....your boy had 44 through 3 and 9 games of another.
:

Yeah, you kind of forgot that Phoenix's minor league affiliates have been some of the worst teams in the entire AHL during LeNeveu's time there. They have had horrid coaching staffs and bleak rosters the whole time, and have had zero .500+ seasons in that time to show for it. To have posted a 92% save percentage on the team he was playing for last season is amazing. He was an All-Star in his league for a reason. Don't try to discredit LeNeveu because he's never been to guy to get the hype around here. He's a damn good young goaltender, and this time last year, he was our top prospect, period.


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05-15-2007, 04:55 PM
  #123
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:

Yeah, you kind of forgot that Phoenix's minor league affiliates have been some of the worst teams in the entire AHL during LeNeveu's time there. They have had horrid coaching staffs and bleak rosters the whole time, and have had zero .500+ seasons in that time to show for it. To have posted a 92% save percentage on the team he was playing for last season is amazing. He was an All-Star in his league for a reason. Don't try to discredit LeNeveu because he's never been to guy to get the hype around here. He's a damn good young goaltender, and this time last year, he was our top prospect, period.
i am not knocking him. i am sure he is a good prospect, but he is not on the level of monty. thats the point i was trying to make.

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05-15-2007, 05:02 PM
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i am not knocking him. i am sure he is a good prospect, but he is not on the level of monty. thats the point i was trying to make.
No one was saying that LeNeveu was as highly regarded as Montoya. My point was that the statistics you used to attempt to prove your point are not as good an indicator of talent as you seem to think, for the simple fact that Montoya has played for good teams and LeNeveu has played for shamefully god awful teams. Just like I'm not going to compare LeNeveu's .938 in college to Montoya's .908, or the fact that Lenny had 11 shutouts in only 49 games, wheras Monty had 13 in 123. Those stats don't mean a whole lot because Monty faced much stiffer competition in the CCHA than Lenny did in the ECAC.

The only reason Lenny was brought up in this thread is because he was a highly regarded goaltender with no NHL experience that didn't end up panning out in Phoenix. I mentioned this to help explain why Coyotes fans aren't jumping all over this deal. Me, personally, I take that trade. Unless, of course, Pat Kane is still available. Which is, of course, the only way Rangers fans would consider the deal.


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05-15-2007, 05:11 PM
  #125
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true

but that being said, if you guys were serious of getting a great goalie prospect besides your boy, then monty would be a upgrade. and really, i don't see a top 10 pick in this draft being a overpayment for a goalie of his caliber. obviously, there are few teams looking for a young goalie, but if all those teams had a top 10 pick, each would probably take monty considering he has proved more than any non pro prospect.

oh, and something i find interesting, i think the last 2 years, the wolfpack have been the youngest team in the ahl.

and honestly, i don't make this deal period. i think monty will be worth twice as much next year as right now, but just going with the rumor

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