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Old
05-12-2007, 08:30 PM
  #26
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Originally Posted by jrosselli View Post
what is avg $$ for back up goalie????

considering we do not have any young goalies in the system i am hoping nitty decides to stay on...he is 26 y/o so when biron contract comes up he will be hitting a prime age for goalies...at the very least if he regains his form from previous year he may bring some trade value....

i doubt he stays in nhl as a backup more then one year
i imagine he'll stay next year... and then look around after next season for a spot where he can fight for a starting job.

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05-12-2007, 09:13 PM
  #27
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gospel? it's a friggin consistent trend with Afanasenkov... he's consistenly been a ~20 point player in this league. you're getting stoked because he went on 30 point pace? i'm saying he's a <30 point player that we're planning on putting next to Mike Richards, who is already going to have Sami "I can't hit the net" Kapanen. you REALLY think that's a good plan? seriously... you say you want the best players? Afanasenkov is about as far from being one of the best options as you can possible achieve.

Umberger was a 2nd year player who literally played almost every possible forward position below the 1st line last year. He was given NO consistent line or role and he was the BEST young player we had in the beginning of the season before Stevens started tossing him around the lineup.

In 73 less NHL games Umberger has 9 more goals and 12 more pts than Afanasenkov... he's a more productive offenisive player than Afanasenkov and it isn't even debateable. He was a very good PKer for us last year. Does he need to work on his overall game? absolutely. name me a 2nd year player that DOESN'T.

Afanasenkov is crap. He's a flashy stickhandler that hogs the puck and doesn't score enough to justify the fact that he tries to play like Alexei Kovalev. For every nice stickhandling move he makes he does about five where he twirls around ignoring his linemates and then skates into the boards and turns the puck over.

This has nothing to do with him being Russian and not producing -- who the hell cares what his nationality is, btw? -- it has to do with the fact that he simply has not produced as a professional to justify the way he plays the game. He was a CRAPPY AHL player, let alone anything he's shown in the NHL.

You want to marry yourself to him getting hot this season, it's called statistical probability... it isn't magic that he got himself to 21 with us, it was a CAREER YEAR. go him.

If we sign him and rely on him on the third line we're going to be having a discussion about the fact that we're getting nothing out of our third line and why can't Richards create any offense? the answer will be that Holmgren saddled him with two players who are going to struggle to get to 25 goals combined.

he's not that good of a player... which is why he was waived. i have no problem letting Fedoruk walk, and Hamel will not be with the Flyers, so that doesn't even friggin matter. my response to both, is that has NOTHING to do with whether Afanasenkov is a useful player... he isn't good offensively, he isn't needed for the PK... it's 800K down the hole.

i'd rather see them convert Potulny to the wing and give him a shot on Richards line, or possibly Ruzicka... those are two players with potential to get points in this league... Afanasenkov's potential is a dead-end.
There are a lot of NHL players who were bad AHL players, Ben Eager was one of them.


Afanasenkov won a Stanley Cup, being on Tampa's 3rd line, in his rookie year. He got waived because he couldn't play a role that he IS able to play here.

You call it $800K down the hole...will it be 800K down the hole when we go out and acquire someone with a $600K cap hit in February to try and make the playoffs?

You're being incredibly short-sighted simply because you would rather spend $800K somewhere else. I can find 800K when Rathje retires and Sanderson and Gauthier are dumped.

Where are you going to play Ruzicka and Potulny if we're signing free agents? They're not bottom 6 players and they're not good enough yet to be top 6 players.

How do you know Afansenkov's numbers are a dead end and Umberger's is not. They're only 2 years apart in age and Afansenkov has 1 extra year in the league. What makes you so confident that Umberger will be such a great player to someone else's expense? He was given the same chances Afanasenkov was and Afanasenkov did better than him.

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05-12-2007, 10:11 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
There are a lot of NHL players who were bad AHL players, Ben Eager was one of them.


Afanasenkov won a Stanley Cup, being on Tampa's 3rd line, in his rookie year. He got waived because he couldn't play a role that he IS able to play here.

You call it $800K down the hole...will it be 800K down the hole when we go out and acquire someone with a $600K cap hit in February to try and make the playoffs?

You're being incredibly short-sighted simply because you would rather spend $800K somewhere else. I can find 800K when Rathje retires and Sanderson and Gauthier are dumped.

Where are you going to play Ruzicka and Potulny if we're signing free agents? They're not bottom 6 players and they're not good enough yet to be top 6 players.

How do you know Afansenkov's numbers are a dead end and Umberger's is not. They're only 2 years apart in age and Afansenkov has 1 extra year in the league. What makes you so confident that Umberger will be such a great player to someone else's expense? He was given the same chances Afanasenkov was and Afanasenkov did better than him.


Reminds me of a blog I wrote about the "Tweeners" on the team...

As far as Affy, I think he has stickhandling skills that very few people (no one?) on this team have..I'd like to see them use him in shootouts...he can be a very good player in the right situation. Like RJ and others, he's been shuffled around as the injuries and general chaos plagued the team...it's tough to be consistent when your line isn't around for long. As people have noted, when he played on a regular line with Richards and Kappy he and the line started producing...then Richards went down and it was back to musical linemates again...part of the reason we don't get consistent scoring beyond our first line is that those lines aren't able to stick together and form chemistry, potency and consistency.

At some point, if we can get everyone healthy, we'll have to take a serious look at the viability of certain players (Potulny, Ruzicka, RJ, Affy --the Tweneers--) and boil them down to maybe one or two players that are part of the team's future. If letting Affy walk now is the decision Holmgren and Luce make, then so be it...but I do think he's worth 800k.


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Old
05-12-2007, 10:41 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Joeflyers View Post
According to Holmgren, restricted free agents who made between $600,000 and $1 million last season are required to receive a 10 percent raise. Players who made more than $1 million are required a 5 percent raise.
From Article 10.2(a) in the CBA:
Quote:
(ii) In order to receive a Right of First Refusal or Draft Choice Compensation (at the Prior Club's option) with respect to a Restricted Free Agent, the Prior Club of a Restricted Free Agent must tender to the Player, no later than 5:00 p.m. New York time on the later of June 25 or the first Monday after the Entry Draft of the final year of the Player's SPC, a "Qualifying Offer", which shall be an offer of an SPC, for one League Year, which is subject to salary arbitration if such Player is otherwise eligible for salary arbitration in accordance with Section 12.1, on at least the following terms and conditions:
(A) if the Player's prior year's Paragraph 1 NHL Salary is less than or equal to $660,000 for that League Year, 110% of the prior year's Paragraph 1 NHL Salary.
(B) if the Player's prior year's Paragraph 1 NHL Salary is greater than $660,000, but less than $1,000,000 for that League Year, 105% of his prior year's Paragraph 1 NHL Salary, but in no event to exceed $1,000,000.
(C) if the Player's prior year's Paragraph 1 NHL Salary is equal to or greater than $1,000,000 for that League year, 100% of the prior year's Paragraph 1 NHL Salary.
(D) if a Player is eligible to receive a Two-Way Qualifying Offer, the Paragraph 1 Minor League Salary component shall not be less than the higher of the Player's prior year's Paragraph 1 Minor League Salary, if any, or the minimum Minor League salary.
So unless there's been a change in the CBA that wasn't announced, someone might want to fill Holmgren in on how the numbers for qualifying offers are calculated. While they're at it, they can ask him what happens with restricted free agents making less than $600,000 in the scenario he described.

Sadly, this is far from the first time that I've seen a team executive screw up something in the CBA - and I'm sure it won't be the last, either. [Again ... if the procedure has changed, it certainly hasn't been reported - but I'm betting no change has been made from what's currently listed in Article 10.]

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Old
05-13-2007, 05:32 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
There are a lot of NHL players who were bad AHL players, Ben Eager was one of them.


Afanasenkov won a Stanley Cup, being on Tampa's 3rd line, in his rookie year. He got waived because he couldn't play a role that he IS able to play here.

You call it $800K down the hole...will it be 800K down the hole when we go out and acquire someone with a $600K cap hit in February to try and make the playoffs?

You're being incredibly short-sighted simply because you would rather spend $800K somewhere else. I can find 800K when Rathje retires and Sanderson and Gauthier are dumped.

Where are you going to play Ruzicka and Potulny if we're signing free agents? They're not bottom 6 players and they're not good enough yet to be top 6 players.

How do you know Afansenkov's numbers are a dead end and Umberger's is not. They're only 2 years apart in age and Afansenkov has 1 extra year in the league. What makes you so confident that Umberger will be such a great player to someone else's expense? He was given the same chances Afanasenkov was and Afanasenkov did better than him.
short-sighted? i don't want Afanasenkov on the roster and would rather give the spot to younger players because i'm short-sighted? that makes a ton of sense.

you're right, i don't know if Affy's numbers are a dead-end and Umberger's are not... lets assume they are: Umberger is a better offensive player than Affy. However, Afanasenkov has a larger body of work and it isn't a mystery to me why he hasn't produced offensively... there's a laundry list of players who aren't all that great that have won Stanley Cups. it remains a team sport, just because you were on the team, it doesn't make you all that good.

i would much rather have someone who can help out offensively on that line... the 3rd line is a BLACK HOLE offensively over an 82 game schedule, rather tha your rather short-sighted appraisale of a stretch where Affy met the law of averages.

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05-13-2007, 05:35 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by exlund View Post
Reminds me of a blog I wrote about the "Tweeners" on the team...

As far as Affy, I think he has stickhandling skills that very few people (no one?) on this team have..I'd like to see them use him in shootouts...he can be a very good player in the right situation. Like RJ and others, he's been shuffled around as the injuries and general chaos plagued the team...it's tough to be consistent when your line isn't around for long. As people have noted, when he played on a regular line with Richards and Kappy he and the line started producing...then Richards went down and it was back to musical linemates again...part of the reason we don't get consistent scoring beyond our first line is that those lines aren't able to stick together and form chemistry, potency and consistency.

At some point, if we can get everyone healthy, we'll have to take a serious look at the viability of certain players (Potulny, Ruzicka, RJ, Affy --the Tweneers--) and boil them down to maybe one or two players that are part of the team's future. If letting Affy walk now is the decision Holmgren and Luce make, then so be it...but I do think he's worth 800k.
Potulny and Ruzicka were 2nd year players getting their first real bite... RJ was a 20 goal scorer as a rookie -- he's not a tweener, he was on a struggling team like everyone else... still got 16 goals.

Affy is a 27 y/o forward who isn't that good... he's got great stick skills and poor finishing ability. He could score in the Q, but that offense didn't translate to the professional ranks and he's never adjusted the way he plays... so he doodles around and then pots one in the goalie's chest.

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05-13-2007, 09:44 AM
  #32
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I hope they sign the three (Affy, Hamel, and Fedoruk). I think that offer to Niittymaki sounds fair. If not we could always get another backup.

I think we're gonna have to offer Pitkanen more than 5% more then 2 mil.

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05-13-2007, 06:05 PM
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Personally, i'd take Affy over Umberger without second though. Umberger will command some value in a trade, and he actually sucks quite a bit, so id rather move him and have the better all around player.

Rather not have fedoruk back, he sucks at hockey, sucks at fighting, and beats up his weaker tea mates.

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05-13-2007, 06:05 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Irish Blues View Post
From Article 10.2(a) in the CBA:


So unless there's been a change in the CBA that wasn't announced, someone might want to fill Holmgren in on how the numbers for qualifying offers are calculated. While they're at it, they can ask him what happens with restricted free agents making less than $600,000 in the scenario he described.

Sadly, this is far from the first time that I've seen a team executive screw up something in the CBA - and I'm sure it won't be the last, either. [Again ... if the procedure has changed, it certainly hasn't been reported - but I'm betting no change has been made from what's currently listed in Article 10.]
I'd put my money on Gormley ****ing up the quote over anythign else. Philadelphia hockey coverage is trash

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05-13-2007, 06:23 PM
  #35
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Personally, i'd take Affy over Umberger without second though. Umberger will command some value in a trade, and he actually sucks quite a bit, so id rather move him and have the better all around player.

Rather not have fedoruk back, he sucks at hockey, sucks at fighting, and beats up his weaker tea mates.
Umberger is a better offensive player than Afanasenkov... one of our better PK'ers... and, theoretically, will improve in other facets of the game. Keeping Affy over him is very short-sighted.

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05-13-2007, 06:36 PM
  #36
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how about third line of

umberger-richards-kapanen

4th of
eager-UFA-affy

and we could role 4 lines

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05-13-2007, 06:41 PM
  #37
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how about third line of

umberger-richards-kapanen

4th of
eager-UFA-affy

and we could role 4 lines
no one truly roles 4 lines in a competitive game. special teams and all that knocks it out.

you really telling me if you have Gagne-no. 1 C- Knuble you're not going to want to give them 20 minutes? what if Carter, Upshall, and whomever their wing is starts getting going... not going to give them 18?

that's a perfectly fine 4th line, but i would rather have a bit more of an energy and banging line, but that's personal preference.

if a big trade happens, Umberger will probably be included, IMO... so his spot might be moot.


Last edited by Jester: 05-13-2007 at 06:54 PM.
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05-13-2007, 08:16 PM
  #38
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how about third line of

umberger-richards-kapanen

4th of
eager-UFA-affy

and we could role 4 lines
I'd really like to see the team move Potulny to the right wing and put him on the line with Umberger and Richards and we can then put Kapanen on a fourth line with Eager and someone like Wes Walz. If they decide to send Potulny and Ruzicka to the minors (which I think would be best for them, rather than riding the pine or only getting 5 to 7 minutes of ice time a game), then I could live with Kapanen on the third line with Richards and Umberger and build a fourth line of Eager-Walz-Afanastinkov. That's assuming though we can sign Wes Walz, which I'm hoping they do because he'd be the perfect fourth line center and the perfect penalty killer with Richards, Kapanen, and Hatcher.....ooooh, that would be a good unit

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05-13-2007, 08:24 PM
  #39
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I really do not understand... Making offers to Fedoruk and Hamel but some fans do not want Afanasenkov to stay? Blows my mind. Anyway, I hope those are two way contracts. Fedoruk and Hamel bring nothing to the table.

Like GKJ said.. Afanasenkov got Kapanen and Richards going that line was our best line in some games. Good d-sive forward with speed and PK ability, puck posession play. He will not score 40pts but he is ok.

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05-13-2007, 11:16 PM
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Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post

You throw around numbers for Afansenkov like I'm supposed the read them (I did not) and then you bring in Umberger. Are you serious? Let's talk numbers then since that's the way you like to put a value on a player. RJ Umberger was completely non existant the 2nd half of the season. Dimitry Afansenkov was twice the player Umberger was because Afansenkov could be put on the ice 5 on 5 and not look like a complete imbicile unlike Umberger. You claim Afansenkov needed to show offense for you to want him around, what about Umberger. News flash: Umberger sucks. At least he did during the same sample of time you are throwing in my face and try to make it look rational. He was given an opportunity to succeed in a larger role. He failed. People want to throw Hatcher and Niittymaki under the bus, I'll throw Umberger under the bus because he was useless. OK, fine Umberger was on the PK. Umberger needs to play 5 on 5 too

We need an "Umberger Sucks and here's why" thread... I'd take Affy for the price we pay over that goofy looking moron from Pittsburgh any day of the week.

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05-13-2007, 11:18 PM
  #41
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I'd really like to see the team move Potulny to the right wing and put him on the line with Umberger and Richards and we can then put Kapanen on a fourth line with Eager and someone like Wes Walz. If they decide to send Potulny and Ruzicka to the minors (which I think would be best for them, rather than riding the pine or only getting 5 to 7 minutes of ice time a game), then I could live with Kapanen on the third line with Richards and Umberger and build a fourth line of Eager-Walz-Afanastinkov. That's assuming though we can sign Wes Walz, which I'm hoping they do because he'd be the perfect fourth line center and the perfect penalty killer with Richards, Kapanen, and Hatcher.....ooooh, that would be a good unit

No idea about Walz' contract situation. I'd love to see him in a Flyers uniform if he isn't too pricey.

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05-14-2007, 05:52 AM
  #42
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I really do not understand... Making offers to Fedoruk and Hamel but some fans do not want Afanasenkov to stay? Blows my mind. Anyway, I hope those are two way contracts. Fedoruk and Hamel bring nothing to the table.

Like GKJ said.. Afanasenkov got Kapanen and Richards going that line was our best line in some games. Good d-sive forward with speed and PK ability, puck posession play. He will not score 40pts but he is ok.
just understand that he mostly likely will not score 15 goals in an 82 game schedule and promise not to complain when the 3rd line is an offensive hole. that's why i don't want him.

what fascinates me is people thinking that a 4th line heavy and a guy who is going to be in the AHL have anything to do with thoughts regarding Afanasenkov. they are completely different and completely non-associated decisions. Afanasankov doesn't go anywhere near Fedoruk's role on a team, and Fedoruk doesn't go anywhere near Afanasenkov's role.

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05-14-2007, 07:00 AM
  #43
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if thery have to pay afanwhatever close to 1mm to play on the 3/4 line it is paying to much. with the cap in place there will be many veterans looking for a job at league min that can play the 4th line role better than him. he did play well but not sure he fits ont his team to be honest. is he a top 6 winger? to say umberger sucks is silly. were you saying that last year? no doubt he had a bad year. he never had any consistency with any linemates. i would venture to say the coach probably didnt speak with him about his role, as it seemed to me he didnt have one. played well with carter as both scored 20 goals than you break them up? real smart move. if he is moved which is likely fine, but to say he sucks is wrong. stop moving him back and forth either wing, center or trade.

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05-14-2007, 07:46 AM
  #44
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if thery have to pay afanwhatever close to 1mm to play on the 3/4 line it is paying to much. with the cap in place there will be many veterans looking for a job at league min that can play the 4th line role better than him. he did play well but not sure he fits ont his team to be honest. is he a top 6 winger? to say umberger sucks is silly. were you saying that last year? no doubt he had a bad year. he never had any consistency with any linemates. i would venture to say the coach probably didnt speak with him about his role, as it seemed to me he didnt have one. played well with carter as both scored 20 goals than you break them up? real smart move. if he is moved which is likely fine, but to say he sucks is wrong. stop moving him back and forth either wing, center or trade.
Umberger struggled down the stretch his 2nd year, particularly defensively... but I think that had much more to do with the fact that they had him playing all over the place than anything else. He was getting shown up the most when they stuck him at center on occasion, a position he stopped playing when he came to this team in his rookie year... then you throw him out there and are baffled that a 2nd year player struggles defensively at Center? News Flash: Carter was miserable at covering people... Umberger should be put at wing and left alone, he will probably pot 20+ goals if you give him a consistent and decent line. Richards and Umberger had a few good games together in the fall (when Umberger was the only young kid scoring for this team).

A bit less than 1M isn't too much for the 3/4 line role, I just don't think Affy is all that good... people disagree. If our 3rd line is Affy-Richards-Kapanen and the 2nd line isn't a monster... we're going to be a very crappy offensive team. That being said, I also don't want to count on Umberger on Carter's wing... so I want to sign someone, but not give up Umberger... Affy's 800K towards a legit 2nd line wing is a good option, IMO. Afanasenkov also doesn't interest me on the 4th line... he's not an "energy shift" type of player... he's a dangler who doesn't finish. Sounds a lot like Dimitrakos, does it not?

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05-14-2007, 10:33 AM
  #45
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just understand that he mostly likely will not score 15 goals in an 82 game schedule and promise not to complain when the 3rd line is an offensive hole. that's why i don't want him.

what fascinates me is people thinking that a 4th line heavy and a guy who is going to be in the AHL have anything to do with thoughts regarding Afanasenkov. they are completely different and completely non-associated decisions. Afanasankov doesn't go anywhere near Fedoruk's role on a team, and Fedoruk doesn't go anywhere near Afanasenkov's role.
How the hell do you know that he will not score 10-15 goals. He made Richards line click. He was playing better then that idiot Calder your and Tea liked.

What was Fedoruks role on the team besides taking penalties. I mean when Flyers signed him and he scored that goal against Devils everyone loved him.. but it was only matter of time.

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05-14-2007, 10:40 AM
  #46
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How the hell do you know that he will not score 10-15 goals. He made Richards line click. He was playing better then that idiot Calder your and Tea liked.

What was Fedoruks role on the team besides taking penalties. I mean when Flyers signed him and he scored that goal against Devils everyone loved him.. but it was only matter of time.
4th line heavy... that's his role. I'm completely open to the fact that he might not be able to fill it anymore... and would be happy to seek someone else. Regardless, you're not signing Fedoruk to go anywhere near what you expect from Afanasenkov... two completely different types of player.

i know nothing... what can do is make an educated guess about what you can expect from Afanasenkov. this past year he set a CAREER HIGH of 11 goals... got hot for the Flyers and that was 16 goal pace if he'd been here the entire year. so, what would I expect from Afanasnkov? less then 15 goals... less than 30 pts... hell, i'd actually wager on less than 25... given that he's never achieved that in the AHL, or the NHL.

I'm unclear why we're fighting so hard to bring back elements of the worst team in the league. you know what's funny about you ragging on Calder in respect to Afanasenov? pretty much the same production last year... Calder just happened to be here when the team was a complete mess... Afanasenkov was here when the team was playing slightly better.

Calder is a better player than Afanasenkov, clearly didn't work out... but he's a better hockey player.

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05-14-2007, 12:46 PM
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Shoeny
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I see where Jester is coming from. Affy dissappeared during games and was very inconsistant. However, I think there are roles for both him and RJ. They both can play on the fourth line, its not the old NHL . There aren't goon lines anymore, so forget ever seeing more than two enforcers on the team. They are obviously versitile guys who can't find the back of the net consistantly, but Umberger is under contract and Affy isn't. If they resign Affy whats wrong with a Eager-Umberger-Affy fourth line? We're talking about fourth line players. Do we miss the Flyers that much?

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05-14-2007, 01:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Mountaineer View Post
We need an "Umberger Sucks and here's why" thread... I'd take Affy for the price we pay over that goofy looking moron from Pittsburgh any day of the week.
Come on, tell us how you REALLY feel about RJ, lol.

Honestly, if we're talking about having either RJ or Affy playing an integral part of our team then I think we are in serious trouble. Both are "ok" players but nothing you'd expect any true contender to be hanging their championship hopeful hats on. Until other guys are ready to supplant them, both are adequate right where they are. 1 mil for a 3rd line player isn't out of the ordinary. In fact it's probably a pretty decent bargin. About the only quality players you'll find cheaper are players who are still RFA's.

I'd have NO problem what-so-ever giving Affy about 900k. Heck RJ is getting what 1.1 or 1.2 mil to play on the 4th line? We have to find a place for Potulny and Rusicka. Neither really plays a style that lends themselves well to playing on the checking line so the 3rd line is probably out. NEITHER is ready right now to take on 2nd line scoring duties full time. We could throw them into that role and let them learn on the job but IMO that would pretty much be like throwing in the towel for next season. Both are too good for the 4th line so where does that really leave them??? The AHL??? Will that really help them and what else can they really learn down there??? I actually think we need to NOT go out and sign as UFA winger for the 2nd line and just promote from within. Lets take our lumps next year and be serious about building for the future.

I like Affy and right now he's probably one of our best options for the 3rd line. That should be a very telling tale for all of you. Sanderson would probably be a better option on the 3rd line but he'll probably be gone and if not then on the 4th line (there's 1.5 mil for a 3rd or 4th line player, typical for a signed UFA). Actually I'd like to see them try Eager on the 3rd line. I know he's not a fast skater but he'd add some size, grit and hitting to go against the other teams top line. I think that if we took him aside and told him his role now is NOT to end up in the penalty box that he'd let more of his natural hockey skills come to the surface and become a pretty decent forward. I think he'd also add a good bit more offensive punch to the 3rd line too.

Another option would be to put Eager on the 2nd line with Carter and Upshall and tell him he's their power forward, go camp out in front of the keeper and score us some goals (I really like Eager, I think if you asked him to run through a brick wall he'd do it).

Sorry Jester but I just don't agree with you about RJ. I just don't think he's that good. I really don't think he's worth the 1.1 or 1.2 mil he's getting now let alone a raise next year. He's flat out not going to cut it on the 3rd line, his defensive play just isn't that good. He's soft on the other players and he's just not that good with his stick to make up for not being physical. I've heard a lot of fans saying that this past years team were just a bunch of "purse carriers" and putting RJ up on the 2nd line would definitely make it even worse. I don't think RJ's 20-goal rookie season was an apparition of things to come, I think it was more of him getting hot and happening to be at the right place at the right time. I guess I just don't think he's as skilled as you do. I like him as a temporary fill-in on the 2nd line when someone is out and I like him on the 4th line. In those 2 roles I think he DOES have value. I just think we've seen about all the growth we can expect from him.

To argue which one of these 2 players has value or which should/shouldn't be on the team is abserd. NEITHER is critical, both have marginal value at best and both can be easily replaced through FA. Are both worth it at their current price, probably yeah. Are either going to be critical to our success next year??? DEFINITELY NOT!!!!

This is actually a pretty stupid argument. I know this isn't what this is really all bout and that it's more about a different opinion of where the teams needs to head but I think that somewhere in the middle of where you both are is where we need to be. Believe it or not I have read in varying posts from each of you that you both know that we are actually looking at a window probebly 2-3 years down the road before we are really competing. If we're looking at either Affy or RJ being key factors on the team in 2-3 years then we most certainly WONT be ready cup runs. Why are we arguing 2 marginal players at best?

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05-14-2007, 01:08 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Shoeny View Post
I see where Jester is coming from. Affy dissappeared during games and was very inconsistant. However, I think there are roles for both him and RJ. They both can play on the fourth line, its not the old NHL . There aren't goon lines anymore, so forget ever seeing more than two enforcers on the team. They are obviously versitile guys who can't find the back of the net consistantly, but Umberger is under contract and Affy isn't. If they resign Affy whats wrong with a Eager-Umberger-Affy fourth line? We're talking about fourth line players. Do we miss the Flyers that much?
Umberger has 36 goals in his first two season in the NHL... "versatile guys who can't find the back of the net..." isn't exactly how i would describe Umberger. If they stick him with Richards for the year... or if they put him back with Carter, whom he had a lot of chemistry with, I would bet he'd get you 20+.

Umberger shouldn't be at Center... and he shouldn't be on the 4th line. He's better than that... and they're burying a good young forward if they do so. This guy was a first round pick for a reason and he came up and produced as a rookie... He struggled defensively some last year, which was true of the entire friggin team (Afanasenkov was a SMOKING -19 for this team in 41 games, btw... i'm not sure why he's viewed as such a defensive stalwart).

Umberger needs to be on the 3rd or higher... if he's not going to be there... trade him. Stupid to have him rotting down there.

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05-14-2007, 01:22 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
Sorry Jester but I just don't agree with you about RJ. I just don't think he's that good. I really don't think he's worth the 1.1 or 1.2 mil he's getting now let alone a raise next year. He's flat out not going to cut it on the 3rd line, his defensive play just isn't that good. He's soft on the other players and he's just not that good with his stick to make up for not being physical. I've heard a lot of fans saying that this past years team were just a bunch of "purse carriers" and putting RJ up on the 2nd line would definitely make it even worse. I don't think RJ's 20-goal rookie season was an apparition of things to come, I think it was more of him getting hot and happening to be at the right place at the right time. I guess I just don't think he's as skilled as you do. I like him as a temporary fill-in on the 2nd line when someone is out and I like him on the 4th line. In those 2 roles I think he DOES have value. I just think we've seen about all the growth we can expect from him.
Afanasenkov: http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p...php3?pid=36989

Umberger: http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p...php3?pid=54470

There respective track records aren't even remotely close to one another. They're both soft, and they were both horrible for this team defensively last year... Afanasenkov was on -38 pace when this team was playing BETTER! If he's so friggin good on defense, which is one of his qualities apparently, then why is his line getting friggin lit up?

I'm not saying Umberger is the next coming of Pavel Bure, but his ceiling is a hell of a lot higher than Afanasenkov... he's shown a TON more offense as a professional hockey player than Afanasenkov (which is why he's getting paid more, btw) and if they let Umberger play wing for the year, where he should be, with a competent center he'd pot more goals than Afanasenkov (note: he has 9 more goals than Afanasenkov for their respective careers in 70 less games...).

Umberger could be a very quality player for this team in the years to come... If you don't agree? fine. however, Afanasenkov will have nothing to do with the future of this team given the players that are already in house and those that are coming.

Umberger getting 20 playing with Carter wasn't a fluke, that was a 1st round draft pick who had scored in NCAA, scored in the AHL, and was getting a shot to play wing with a decent center (learning to play wing mind you) playing towards his potential. He has stuff to work on... he needs to get more physical and improve his defensive play... I will say the same for the following: Jeff Carter, Mike Richards, Joni Pitkanen, Braydon Coburn, Alex Picard... see the drift?

Welcome to having a young team Flyer fans... Young players struggle in the "smart" areas of the game, like playing defense.

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