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Flyers Notes Per Chuck Gormley

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Old
05-14-2007, 01:38 PM
  #51
phlocky
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Hey, I can respect your position on him Jester, I just don't see where he really fits into our future. He's not a 1st line player so that means he either has to be a 2nd line scoring wing (he's really not much of a playmaker or mucker) or get better at his defensive play for the 3rd line. For the second line we have (now or coming in the near future) Carter, Upshall, Ruzicka, Potulny and probably Giroux. I really don't see RJ being a better option than any of these 5 guys. He's the 6th man trying to win one of 3 open spots (really just 1 open slot with 4 guys vying for it). And if we sign an RFA the log-jam gets even worse.

The future of the 3rd line will probably be Richards, Eager and Downie or one or more of theguys above who don't cut it on the 2nd line. Both Eager and Downie showed more offensive optential in juniors than RJ did in the NCAA so they will probably have more offensive upside optential than RJ in the future. Both definietly play more physical and while not slower than Eager or Downie, RJ isn't exactly a speed burner either. Bumping one of the guys from the 2nd line down to the 3rd line and teaching them to play defense (something we'd have to do with RJ anyways) would probably give us an all around better player than RJ too.

RJ is in a tough spot on this team. He finds himself just slightly behind other players who are just abit better than he is. The Flyers really SHOULD probably do the right thing by RJ and trade him to a team that WILL use him to his fulles potential. I just don't see him as our "best" option in any of these roles.

I don't see Affy being that great either. Like I said, both are ok for now, neither really are likely to be here in 2-3 years. WE JUST HAVE BETTER OPTIONS.

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05-14-2007, 01:44 PM
  #52
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What do you guys think of my idea of playing Eager/Potulny/Ruzicka on the 2nd line wing instead of signing someone and us just taking our lumps next year. I know Carter especially would benefit from having a vet with him to learn from but I think we are going to struggle next year anyways so we might as well get a good look at those 3 in a more pominent role.

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05-14-2007, 02:14 PM
  #53
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Ha, when I first read that I thought you wanted the 3 of them to be the 2nd line.

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05-14-2007, 02:36 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
What do you guys think of my idea of playing Eager/Potulny/Ruzicka on the 2nd line wing instead of signing someone and us just taking our lumps next year. I know Carter especially would benefit from having a vet with him to learn from but I think we are going to struggle next year anyways so we might as well get a good look at those 3 in a more pominent role.
i'd be game for them on the third line... i think they need to sign a Veteran to play with Carter/Upshall and help them get over the hump. we need a bit more age on this lineup... way too young at the moment.

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05-14-2007, 02:39 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
i'd be game for them on the third line... i think they need to sign a Veteran to play with Carter/Upshall and help them get over the hump. we need a bit more age on this lineup... way too young at the moment.
Jester, did you get my PM?

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05-14-2007, 02:43 PM
  #56
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Jester, did you get my PM?
sent you a note.

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05-15-2007, 08:50 PM
  #57
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i don't get the hatred for umberger...people saying he sucks????

i am not going to lose sleep over flyers trading umberger but how do people say he sucks???

richards has bouquets thrown at his feet for doing nothing more then having hands of stone, never winning a big draw, and getting his annual beating from asham...

umberger plays all three forwards spots on 2nd, 3rd, and 4th lines, kills penalties (did he lead team in short handed goals?), and averages 18 goals in first two seasons...
i am not saying he is great and i don't want to kill richards but let's keep it level playing field

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05-15-2007, 09:37 PM
  #58
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Here's an idea that I think would be a good fit. Move Umberger back to the left wing with Carter and move Knuble to the right wing. Then, move Upshall to the right wing on a line with Gagne and UFA center. Have your third line of Afanastinkov/Richards/Krapanen and a fourth of Eager/UFA/UFA. We have a first line with a veteran presence in Gagne and a UFA centerman to help get Upshall over the hump. We have Knuble as a veteran presence on the 2nd line to help Carter and Umberger get over the hump. As well, Carter and Umberger have had chemistry together in the past, so maybe it's worth revisiting. We leave our third line in tact as they had chemistry and we can create a crash and bang fourth line that will contribute in the physical department.

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05-15-2007, 09:41 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
Here's an idea that I think would be a good fit. Move Umberger back to the left wing with Carter and move Knuble to the right wing. Then, move Upshall to the right wing on a line with Gagne and UFA center. Have your third line of Afanastinkov/Richards/Krapanen and a fourth of Eager/UFA/UFA. We have a first line with a veteran presence in Gagne and a UFA centerman to help get Upshall over the hump. We have Knuble as a veteran presence on the 2nd line to help Carter and Umberger get over the hump. As well, Carter and Umberger have had chemistry together in the past, so maybe it's worth revisiting. We leave our third line in tact as they had chemistry and we can create a crash and bang fourth line that will contribute in the physical department.

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05-15-2007, 10:16 PM
  #60
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i don't get the hatred for umberger...people saying he sucks????

i am not going to lose sleep over flyers trading umberger but how do people say he sucks???

richards has bouquets thrown at his feet for doing nothing more then having hands of stone, never winning a big draw, and getting his annual beating from asham...

umberger plays all three forwards spots on 2nd, 3rd, and 4th lines, kills penalties (did he lead team in short handed goals?), and averages 18 goals in first two seasons...
i am not saying he is great and i don't want to kill richards but let's keep it level playing field
I agree. He is not that great defensively, and not that gritty, but he can score 25 goals in this league, if he is given a clearly defined role. As others mentioned, he had a great chemistry with Carter that they never revisted this year until the end when RJ was in a huge slump. The entire first half of the year last year, he was the 3rd leading scorer on the team, and the best of the 3 youngsters. He looked really good when they had him playing RW. When he kept moving around, and then was put back at center which he did not play since the phantoms, he seemed lost. Put him somewhere, and leave him there. I would like to see him on the RW with Richards and another good two way player.

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05-15-2007, 10:22 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by mikedifr View Post
I agree. He is not that great defensively, and not that gritty, but he can score 25 goals in this league, if he is given a clearly defined role. As others mentioned, he had a great chemistry with Carter that they never revisted this year until the end when RJ was in a huge slump. The entire first half of the year last year, he was the 3rd leading scorer on the team, and the best of the 3 youngsters. He looked really good when they had him playing RW. When he kept moving around, and then was put back at center which he did not play since the phantoms, he seemed lost. Put him somewhere, and leave him there. I would like to see him on the RW with Richards and another good two way player.
I think the "keep moving him around" theory is nothing but BS. He was so putrid for 3/4ths of this season, there are NO excuses for that. He looked like a brain dead person strapped into a pair of skates trying to play hockey

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05-15-2007, 11:46 PM
  #62
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I think the "keep moving him around" theory is nothing but BS. He was so putrid for 3/4ths of this season, there are NO excuses for that. He looked like a brain dead person strapped into a pair of skates trying to play hockey
aside from gagne who looked good????

many people have posted wanting to get guys like hartnell or pyatt for the second line because they are young and can be 20-25 goal scorers...i am all for that but we have a young guy that has shown ability to score 20 goals and we bury him as a 4th line center....

bigggest problem last few years has been not having guys that can finish and not having guys that can stay healthy...rj is no shanny but he has avg'd 18 goals over first 2 yrs and is never out of the line up (cheap shot by hollweg & obliteration by campbell)...why does he get shorter leash then carter, richards, rosie, afan????

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05-16-2007, 12:05 AM
  #63
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Though many don't realize it, Umberger is really the only young player to show some consistency. Albeit its only been 2 years he finished 3rd on the team in goals. Not a great accomplishment, but I think he deserves a shot on the 2nd line. Much more then Potulny or Ruzicka do. Both of them need another year in the AHL.

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05-16-2007, 12:07 AM
  #64
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I'd take potulny or ruzicka on line 2 wing over umberger in a heart beat. They both have more offensive upside and are both a better fit on that wing anyway

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05-16-2007, 01:28 AM
  #65
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I'd take potulny or ruzicka on line 2 wing over umberger in a heart beat. They both have more offensive upside and are both a better fit on that wing anyway
+1

Umberger does nothing for me. I can honestly say I don't remember one single moment where I felt he displayed some sort of offensive creativity. What is it about his game that's appealing? He's lazy defensively, soft, and a good number of his goals that immediately come to mind were the goalie's fault, rather than a direct reflection of his offensive ability. If you give Potulny or Ruzicka Umberger's minutes, I think they put up similar, if not superior, numbers.

I'd like to see R.J. traded and his spot taken over by Potulny/Ruzicka -- whoever wins the job. Personally, I think Potulny would.

Gagne-UFA-Knuble
UFA-Carter-Upshall
Potulny-Richards-Kapanen
Eager-UFA-Grant/Cote

If the team would like to roll 4 lines regularly (ala Buffalo), then perhaps add Ruzicka as the 4th line RW. Otherwise, let him get first line minutes with the Phantoms and be the first call-up.

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05-16-2007, 04:35 AM
  #66
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+1

Umberger does nothing for me. I can honestly say I don't remember one single moment where I felt he displayed some sort of offensive creativity. What is it about his game that's appealing? He's lazy defensively, soft, and a good number of his goals that immediately come to mind were the goalie's fault, rather than a direct reflection of his offensive ability. If you give Potulny or Ruzicka Umberger's minutes, I think they put up similar, if not superior, numbers.

I'd like to see R.J. traded and his spot taken over by Potulny/Ruzicka -- whoever wins the job. Personally, I think Potulny would.

Gagne-UFA-Knuble
UFA-Carter-Upshall
Potulny-Richards-Kapanen
Eager-UFA-Grant/Cote

If the team would like to roll 4 lines regularly (ala Buffalo), then perhaps add Ruzicka as the 4th line RW. Otherwise, let him get first line minutes with the Phantoms and be the first call-up.
exact same thing can easily be said of Afanasenkov.

Umberger was the third leading goal getter on this team this past season... and notched 20 as a rookie. He had a sophomore slump as the ENTIRE team did... He needs to do some thing better, particularly physicality... however, that might not be part of his game and we'll see what happens there. This entire team was crap, singling him out is a bit silly... especially when he was getting particularly beat up when they had him at Center, which he shouldn't be playing. Put him on a wing and leave him alone... you may say moving him around is BS, but when you're moving him from scoring line wing to 4th line center, that isn't helping.

The list of players who scored 20 as rookies is shorter than people think... If you're complaining about "soft" players, don't bring up Potulny and Ruzicka who are damn near useless along the boards. I think they have a chance to be good in this league, but Potulny has never really played much wing with this organization... and Ruzicka isn't always there.

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05-16-2007, 04:36 AM
  #67
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I'd take potulny or ruzicka on line 2 wing over umberger in a heart beat. They both have more offensive upside and are both a better fit on that wing anyway
1 isn't a wing.

and both can barely keep their skates when someone plays them physically... they work that out, and they'll be pretty effective in this league. Ruzicka certainly showed flashes, but the knock on him is consistency.

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05-16-2007, 06:21 AM
  #68
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I think the "keep moving him around" theory is nothing but BS. He was so putrid for 3/4ths of this season, there are NO excuses for that. He looked like a brain dead person strapped into a pair of skates trying to play hockey
Yes, i dont disagree, but you can say that for basically the entire team for at least half the season, with a couple exceptions. Richards looked completely inept for half the season as well. The only reason everyone still praises him is that he offers some other intangibles, aggressivenes and defensive play. Umberger is an offensive player and that is it. He needs to try and develop at least a competent defensive game, which he did in the AHL, so I dont see why he cant in the NHL. You cant do that though when you play every damn position in a weeks period, with crap for linemates half the time. The guy showed a lot in his rookie year, went through a sophomore slump with.....um.....the entire frigin team. Put the guy in a 2nd line role, as that is where he is best suited with his skill set, or as the scorer on the 3rd line with two guys that can cover his defensive mistakes and LEAVE HIM BE! He will get 15-20 on the third line, and 20-25 on the 2nd.

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05-16-2007, 06:22 AM
  #69
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I'd take potulny or ruzicka on line 2 wing over umberger in a heart beat. They both have more offensive upside and are both a better fit on that wing anyway
potulny maybe, I have a feeling he is just going to be one of those guys that just has a nose for the net and scores. At this point, I dont think Ruzicka has shown enough.

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05-16-2007, 06:52 AM
  #70
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I agree. He is not that great defensively, and not that gritty, but he can score 25 goals in this league, if he is given a clearly defined role. As others mentioned, he had a great chemistry with Carter that they never revisted this year until the end when RJ was in a huge slump. The entire first half of the year last year, he was the 3rd leading scorer on the team, and the best of the 3 youngsters. He looked really good when they had him playing RW. When he kept moving around, and then was put back at center which he did not play since the phantoms, he seemed lost. Put him somewhere, and leave him there. I would like to see him on the RW with Richards and another good two way player.
Personally, I don't think Carter and RJ work well together. They both like to carry the puck, they both like to shoot. Carter and RJ didn't score those goals two seasons ago as a result of chemistry and quick passes, it was more like garbage goals and pouncing on rebounds from the other player - or one player would make a breakout pass, the other would rush and score the goal. That's not really chemistry, that's just basic hockey.

RJs not our second line centre. As Jester has pointed out, if you're relying on a line completely made up of kids to be your 2nd scoring line, this team is done for once again.

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05-16-2007, 07:05 AM
  #71
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Personally, I don't think Carter and RJ work well together. They both like to carry the puck, they both like to shoot. Carter and RJ didn't score those goals two seasons ago as a result of chemistry and quick passes, it was more like garbage goals and pouncing on rebounds from the other player - or one player would make a breakout pass, the other would rush and score the goal. That's not really chemistry, that's just basic hockey.

RJs not our second line centre. As Jester has pointed out, if you're relying on a line completely made up of kids to be your 2nd scoring line, this team is done for once again.
personally, i'd be happy with...

Gagne-UFA/Trade-Knuble
UFA/Trade (Veteran)-Carter-Upshall
Umberger-Richards-Kapanen
Eager-?-?

If you did that I would expect Umberger to get himself 20 goals... Richards is a good enough passer and Umberger has some decent finishing skills. Umberger needs to develop his garbage goal desire a bit more and he could be one of those guys that gets 25-30 a year on a second line. However, I would hope we could get 20 out of him if he got consistent time on the 3rd line with Richards and Kapanen... and that would probably equate to ~45 goals or so from that line, which starting to become alright... as opposed to Afanasenkov, where I would plan on <35.

If you get a legit first liner, and Carter and Upshall continue to click and are helped out by the Vet I would like to pick up, that could be a good offensive team.

What I find absurd is everyone BURYING young players on this team... it's unreal. It takes players a bit to sort themselves out usually... Afanasenkov has had time to sort himself out, and still pretty much sucks. Umberger has played two seasons and gotten 20 goals in one of them... yeah, easy accomplishment in the toughest league in the world.

everyone should note all the qualifying "if's," should's," and "could's" that are rife with any discussion of this team...

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05-16-2007, 07:11 AM
  #72
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personally, i'd be happy with...

Gagne-UFA/Trade-Knuble
UFA/Trade (Veteran)-Carter-Upshall
Umberger-Richards-Kapanen
Eager-?-?

If you did that I would expect Umberger to get himself 20 goals... Richards is a good enough passer and Umberger has some decent finishing skills. Umberger needs to develop his garbage goal desire a bit more and he could be one of those guys that gets 25-30 a year on a second line. However, I would hope we could get 20 out of him if he got consistent time on the 3rd line with Richards and Kapanen... and that would probably equate to ~45 goals or so from that line, which starting to become alright... as opposed to Afanasenkov, where I would plan on <35.

If you get a legit first liner, and Carter and Upshall continue to click and are helped out by the Vet I would like to pick up, that could be a good offensive team.

What I find absurd is everyone BURYING young players on this team... it's unreal. It takes players a bit to sort themselves out usually... Afanasenkov has had time to sort himself out, and still pretty much sucks. Umberger has played two seasons and gotten 20 goals in one of them... yeah, easy accomplishment in the toughest league in the world.

everyone should note all the qualifying "if's," should's," and "could's" that are rife with any discussion of this team...
I'd be okay with your proposed third line as long as those two teach Umberger how to play defense 5 on 5.

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05-16-2007, 07:42 AM
  #73
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I'd be okay with your proposed third line as long as those two teach Umberger how to play defense 5 on 5.
i think he got abused a ton whenever they put him at center... and he wasn't the only one racking up a horrible +/- at the start fo the year. let him play wing and see what happens... we had a lot of weak defensive forwards last year, Umberger was far from being alone.

btw, if we're going to rip Umberger for his defense... we need to discuss the fact that the defensively MARVELOUS (I only say this because apparently one of his selling points is his defensive play) Afanasenkov was a smashing -19 in 41 games... while this team was playing much better and he was having a career year offensively.

team defense needs to improve... a lot of players need to be better, Umberger and Carter were both pretty horrible defensively at times. defense is about positioning and knowing your responsibility, so it doesn't shock me that a 2nd year player getting time at LW, C, and RW on 3 different lines would have some problems there.

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05-16-2007, 09:16 AM
  #74
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btw, if we're going to rip Umberger for his defense... we need to discuss the fact that the defensively MARVELOUS (I only say this because apparently one of his selling points is his defensive play) Afanasenkov was a smashing -19 in 41 games... while this team was playing much better and he was having a career year offensively.
So was everyone. Zhitnik for isntance was +12 (If I am not wrong) before he was traded from NYI..

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05-16-2007, 09:54 AM
  #75
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I'd rather have RJ on the third line than Afanasenkhov. He won't grow/get better with 4th line minutes and some PP time. We might as well have potulny on 4th line.

As Kaktus pointed out, alot of guys turned bad in PHI. I just don't get the love for affy. here he is a "defensive specialist" and his +/- stats were bad. He had a good few offensive games but then settled back to his usual career numbers (20-30 pts).

Richards has nice passing skills, but you need someone on the third line who can put the puck in the net. Due to kapanen and richards scrappy play, they generate chances but neither are good shooters, you need a guy like umberger to get the garbage goals, the wide open passes those two create with their speed/play.

RJ has shown in 2 years that he gets in the right place at the right time, he gets garbage goals, he can pick his spots well, but doesn't have playmaking/passing skills (yet) to be a 2nd or 1st liner.

I think RJ on the 3rd line with his size and knack for getting those "type" of goals is a perfect fit.

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