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Proposal: Devils and Flames

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Old
05-16-2007, 12:05 PM
  #1
DEVILS ALL THE WAY*
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Proposal: Devils and Flames

I went on Calgary's board and everybody seems to say that they are lacking a good, established puck moving d-men. This is what I propose...

To Calgary

Paul Martin
John Madden
Niklas Bergfors

VS

To New Jersey

Matthew Lombardi
Alex Tanguay
Matt Pelech

This of course is only if Gomez bails on us. The money difference is almost equal so the cap it would remain the same for both teams and that would solve Calgary's defensive problems and Lou's problem at finding a #1 center for Elias and Gionta. Bergfors (I.M.O.) is going to be patient because our top 6 is locked for a while, so acquiring a good young defensive prospect might be a option.

I know that Lou has a man crush over Madden but Lombardi is younger, faster and has more offensive instincts then Madden....but Madden is one of the premiere defensive centermen in the league.

FLAME ON BOYS !!!!!!


Last edited by DEVILS ALL THE WAY*: 05-16-2007 at 06:12 PM.
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Old
05-16-2007, 12:08 PM
  #2
illogic
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DEVILS ALL THE WAY View Post
I went on Calgary's board and everybody seems to say that they are lacking a good, established puck moving d-men. This is what I propose...

To Calgary

Paul Martin
John Madden
Christian Bergfors

VS

To New Jersey

Matthew Lombardi
Alex Tanguay
Matt Pelech

This of course is only if Gomez bails on us. The money difference is almost equal so the cap it would remain the same for both teams and that would solve Calgary's defensive problems and Lou's problem at finding a #1 center for Elias and Gionta. Bergfors (I.M.O.) is going to be patient because our top 6 is locked for a while, so acquiring a good young defensive prospect might be a option.

I know that Lou has a man crush over Madden but Lombardi is younger, faster and has more offensive instincts then Madden....but Madden is one of the premiere defensive centermen in the league.

FLAME ON BOYS !!!!!!
Did you mean Niklas Bergfors?

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Old
05-16-2007, 12:18 PM
  #3
TaiMaiShu
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Why does Calgary need more dmen?

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Old
05-16-2007, 12:23 PM
  #4
OMA
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I'd pass on this from a Flames POV for a couple of reasons.

1. Lombardi has reportedly signed a 3 year extension with a cap hit of 1.9 per (IIRC). All things considered, I have a tough time seeing Sutter move Lombardi unless its in a package for a legit number one center.

2. I think John Madden is a world-class player, but Calgary already has a backlog of guys that are two-way centers. You have Langkow, Lombardi, Conroy and Yelle in Calgary right now. Andrei Taratukhin and Dustin Boyd (although he might play as an LW) are ready for the NHL now also.

3. I can't see Sutter moving Tanguay unless it's to dump salary to open up room for a FA signing (the name Ryan Smyth keeps on popping up... i doubt that though).

4. Calgary has no defensive prospects whatsoever. As sad as this sounds... Pelech is our best defensive prospect and with the emphasis that Sutter places upon the defensive aspect of the game (as well as keeping the stock full)..... I can't see him dealing Pelech.

It's not the New Jersey players are bad... because they aren't. This trade doesn't address any of Calgary's needs right now IMO.

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Old
05-16-2007, 12:24 PM
  #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DEVILS ALL THE WAY View Post
I went on Calgary's board and everybody seems to say that they are lacking a good, established puck moving d-men. This is what I propose...

To Calgary

Paul Martin
John Madden
Christian Bergfors

VS

To New Jersey

Matthew Lombardi
Alex Tanguay
Matt Pelech

This of course is only if Gomez bails on us. The money difference is almost equal so the cap it would remain the same for both teams and that would solve Calgary's defensive problems and Lou's problem at finding a #1 center for Elias and Gionta. Bergfors (I.M.O.) is going to be patient because our top 6 is locked for a while, so acquiring a good young defensive prospect might be a option.

I know that Lou has a man crush over Madden but Lombardi is younger, faster and has more offensive instincts then Madden....but Madden is one of the premiere defensive centermen in the league.

FLAME ON BOYS !!!!!!
i think it the discussion on the flames board is more we need to sign a couple top 4 defensemen whether its Hamrlik, Stuart or UFAs... but that said trade is also a viable option IMO...

now to the proposal...

Madden's cap hit kinda bothers me to be honest... nearly 3 million for a guy who appears to be average on draws and is only good for 30-40 points? and judging by your teams +/- ratings he isn't the premier shutdown guy of old... he was close to the worst in that aspect of all your regular forward

Paul Martin... is an RFA who was making 2 million and likely seeking a bigger payday due to him getting top 2 icetime and respectable offensive numbers... but again whats up with the +/-?? he is last among all Devils defensemen and 2nd worst on your entire team... I know +/- doesn't tell the whole story especially if you are just lookat only at he number... but comparing it within teammate IMO gives a general idea of their play... and by looking at icetime i would say its likely Martin was paired with Rafalski a decent amount (please correct me if i'm wrong) and if this is the case how the hell does Rafalski manage a plus rating when his partner is a big minus??

i would decline personally

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Old
05-16-2007, 12:31 PM
  #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunatik View Post
Paul Martin... is an RFA who was making 2 million and likely seeking a bigger payday due to him getting top 2 icetime and respectable offensive numbers... but again whats up with the +/-?? he is last among all Devils defensemen and 2nd worst on your entire team... I know +/- doesn't tell the whole story especially if you are just lookat only at he number... but comparing it within teammate IMO gives a general idea of their play... and by looking at icetime i would say its likely Martin was paired with Rafalski a decent amount (please correct me if i'm wrong) and if this is the case how the hell does Rafalski manage a plus rating when his partner is a big minus??

i would decline personally
Martin was rarely paired with Rafalski since they're both offensive defensemen. White and Oduya were two of his more frequent partners. As for +/-, the Devils only scored 15 more goals than they allowed, so everyone's +/- is pretty terrible. Martin had a good season this year for the Devs.

I'm not advocating this trade or anything, just wanted to set those things straight.

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Old
05-16-2007, 12:35 PM
  #7
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I think if we need a better puck-moving defenseman, Sutter will find one on the open market.

I'm completely against giving up Lombardi AND Tanguay, two of our most offensively talented players. There's simply no point to it.

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Old
05-16-2007, 12:42 PM
  #8
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Yeah, Calgary could use a defenseman, but not at the cost of losing 2 top offensive threats.

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Old
05-16-2007, 02:54 PM
  #9
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this definitely is one of the worst made up proposals i have seen on this site... ever, and yep you are a devils fan so of course you would be all for a lopsided trade

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Old
05-16-2007, 04:39 PM
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by loyst21 View Post
this definitely is one of the worst made up proposals i have seen on this site... ever, and yep you are a devils fan so of course you would be all for a lopsided trade
Judging by your 21 posts, your comments are as smart as the # of posts you made here on HF... those of a rookie.

If I'm not mistaken, wasn't Lombardi on the block a while back??? Madden is a older version of Lombardi and he already proved himself while Lombardi never really proved anything. I'm not saying that Matthew won't become a top 6 forward, but Calgary would get a "shure thing" with Madden.

Bergfors is our top prospect and already played 2 years in the AHL at only 20 years of age. What did Pelech do so far... except being injured all the time. Bergfors is clearly better then Pelech and it isn't even close, but we need depth a D and that's the reason why I put his name up there instead of Giordano or anybody else that is better then Pelech.

Paul Martin is a verry good defensemen that is underated (like Rafalski) by alot of people here on HF... why??? Maybe because he plays for N.J. and nobody likes to watch are games, so nobody knows the real value of our plays when it comes to proposing trade ideas (like yourself ). He's younger, cheaper and better then Hamrlik and I don't think you guy's have a chance to resign Stuart. Not because he doesn't want to play for Calgary but because someone will offer him a bigger contract then the Flames. The UFA market for defensemens will be verry strong this year because the talent is verry limited wich means that some GM's will overpay to land a guy like Souray, Stuart, Markov, etc...

Tanguay is a verry good player that balances this hole deal and you guy's would have Langkow, Conroy, Madden and Yelle at center with Boyd and Ryder as depth players if something happens.

Hey I'm not trying to change your mind, but don't be a smartass about it.... ROOKIE.

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Old
05-16-2007, 05:57 PM
  #11
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don't think the deal would appeal to CGY...

they already have Yelle as their 3rd line shut down centre (and Conroy is pretty good defensively as well) so no need for madden, and without him this deal falls apart quickly...

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Old
05-16-2007, 06:22 PM
  #12
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
don't think the deal would appeal to CGY...

they already have Yelle as their 3rd line shut down centre (and Conroy is pretty good defensively as well) so no need for madden, and without him this deal falls apart quickly...
Aren't Yelle and Conroy UFA after next season ??? And with the $$$ Calgary would save with the Tanguay contract this year, that would allow Sutter to have a little breathing room to offer contracts to Iginla, Kiprusoff, Huselius and Regehr... who are all going to be UFA after the 08/09 season.

Ouch, that's gonna be a rough 08/09 summer for Sutter

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05-16-2007, 06:29 PM
  #13
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Originally Posted by DEVILS ALL THE WAY View Post
Aren't Yelle and Conroy UFA after next season ??? And with the $$$ Calgary would save with the Tanguay contract this year, that would allow Sutter to have a little breathing room to offer contracts to Iginla, Kiprusoff, Huselius and Regehr... who are all going to be UFA after the 08/09 season.

Ouch, that's gonna be a rough 08/09 summer for Sutter
As much as I like Stephane Yelle, I don't think he'll be retained next summer regardless. Andrei Taratukhin is going to get 3rd line minutes this year at Center... and Dustin Boyd will be ready for next year (if not this year). Calgary has a lot of depth up the middle in terms of 2nd/3rd/4th liners (we don't have a number 1 center in our system).

The problem with your proposal as I see it is the following.... Calgary pays a heavy, heavy price (A PPG winger and a young center with 1B/2A center potential... IMO anyways) without really upgrading their club. The only thing that fills a need is Martin. I love Madden... but his skillset would be somewhat redundant and doesn't really upgrade the club at all because of that. Bergfors is nice too... but this Calgary team is more in win-now mode.

The other thing to consider here is that I consider Tanguay a core player in Calgary and to be frank... it wouldn't surprise me if Sutter deals Iginla with the intentions of having the Calgary offense built around Tanguay, Huselius and whoever they can get in the Iginla trade.

I'm going to ignore the futures in this trade (although I'd give a slight edge to Bergfors). Calgary gives up a 1st line forward and a youngish player who is a 2nd liner IMO for an elite third line center and a top 3 puckmoving dman. We lose too much scoring depth as a result of this move and what we get back doesn't compensate..... that's my homer Calgary take anyways

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Old
05-16-2007, 06:47 PM
  #14
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Originally Posted by OMA View Post
As much as I like Stephane Yelle, I don't think he'll be retained next summer regardless. Andrei Taratukhin is going to get 3rd line minutes this year at Center... and Dustin Boyd will be ready for next year (if not this year). Calgary has a lot of depth up the middle in terms of 2nd/3rd/4th liners (we don't have a number 1 center in our system).

The problem with your proposal as I see it is the following.... Calgary pays a heavy, heavy price (A PPG winger and a young center with 1B/2A center potential... IMO anyways) without really upgrading their club. The only thing that fills a need is Martin. I love Madden... but his skillset would be somewhat redundant and doesn't really upgrade the club at all because of that. Bergfors is nice too... but this Calgary team is more in win-now mode.

The other thing to consider here is that I consider Tanguay a core player in Calgary and to be frank... it wouldn't surprise me if Sutter deals Iginla with the intentions of having the Calgary offense built around Tanguay, Huselius and whoever they can get in the Iginla trade.

I'm going to ignore the futures in this trade (although I'd give a slight edge to Bergfors). Calgary gives up a 1st line forward and a youngish player who is a 2nd liner IMO for an elite third line center and a top 3 puckmoving dman. We lose too much scoring depth as a result of this move and what we get back doesn't compensate..... that's my homer Calgary take anyways

Fair enough, but I don't think that Iginla will get you a elite player that will help your organisation right away. I have a feeling that Iginla will fetch you a top notch youngster plus a #1 pick (of course that might change if he signs a LTC with the team he'll be traded to). There's not alot of GM's now a days that will pay full value for a player that will become UFA after the end of next season. Sutter might as well keep him for next year and trade him at the deadline or gamble and hope he brings your team far in the SCP.

But that's just my opinion

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Old
05-16-2007, 09:38 PM
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunatik View Post

Madden's cap hit kinda bothers me to be honest... nearly 3 million for a guy who appears to be average on draws and is only good for 30-40 points? and judging by your teams +/- ratings he isn't the premier shutdown guy of old... he was close to the worst in that aspect of all your regular forward

Paul Martin... is an RFA who was making 2 million and likely seeking a bigger payday due to him getting top 2 icetime and respectable offensive numbers... but again whats up with the +/-?? he is last among all Devils defensemen and 2nd worst on your entire team... I know +/- doesn't tell the whole story especially if you are just lookat only at he number... but comparing it within teammate IMO gives a general idea of their play... and by looking at icetime i would say its likely Martin was paired with Rafalski a decent amount (please correct me if i'm wrong) and if this is the case how the hell does Rafalski manage a plus rating when his partner is a big minus??

i would decline personally
Madden's +/- is so low because he's on a line with Jay Pandolfo and Sergei Brylin, guys who don't score. This line only goes up against the top players in the league, players who score alot. He is still a premier shutdown guy. +/- is not indicative of anything.

Martin is terrific defensively. Martin was rarely ever paired with Rafalski. Martin won't be receiving a raise because he had similar ice time last season and put up more points. Additionally, the disparity between Rafalski and Martin's +/- can be attributed to the fact that Rafalski was often on the ice with the EGG line or the PZL line.

Your logic is completely flawed.

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Old
05-16-2007, 10:10 PM
  #16
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The Flames can probably get a better puckmover than Martin on the open market without having to overpay. There's little chance of Lombardi being moved, too affordable and on the verge of producing some big numbers. The Flames only part with Tanguay if a bigger name is stepping into that top-line LW position, which Sutter will be hard pressed to find. I'm not sold on Bergfors either.

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Old
05-16-2007, 10:13 PM
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The Flames would not be willing to pay that kind of money for a 3rd line center (Madden). They have some very ncie 2 way centers coming through the ranks, Ryder, Taratuykin, Boyd. At least one will be on the team for next year. Plus they have Conroy/Yelle to fill that role.

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05-17-2007, 01:52 PM
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Originally Posted by DEVILS ALL THE WAY View Post
Judging by your 21 posts, your comments are as smart as the # of posts you made here on HF... those of a rookie.

If I'm not mistaken, wasn't Lombardi on the block a while back??? Madden is a older version of Lombardi and he already proved himself while Lombardi never really proved anything. I'm not saying that Matthew won't become a top 6 forward, but Calgary would get a "shure thing" with Madden.

Bergfors is our top prospect and already played 2 years in the AHL at only 20 years of age. What did Pelech do so far... except being injured all the time. Bergfors is clearly better then Pelech and it isn't even close, but we need depth a D and that's the reason why I put his name up there instead of Giordano or anybody else that is better then Pelech.

Paul Martin is a verry good defensemen that is underated (like Rafalski) by alot of people here on HF... why??? Maybe because he plays for N.J. and nobody likes to watch are games, so nobody knows the real value of our plays when it comes to proposing trade ideas (like yourself ). He's younger, cheaper and better then Hamrlik and I don't think you guy's have a chance to resign Stuart. Not because he doesn't want to play for Calgary but because someone will offer him a bigger contract then the Flames. The UFA market for defensemens will be verry strong this year because the talent is verry limited wich means that some GM's will overpay to land a guy like Souray, Stuart, Markov, etc...

Tanguay is a verry good player that balances this hole deal and you guy's would have Langkow, Conroy, Madden and Yelle at center with Boyd and Ryder as depth players if something happens.

Hey I'm not trying to change your mind, but don't be a smartass about it.... ROOKIE.

lets get real here... someone always takes a "stab" at how many posts you burn on this site.. why does that matter? just because i dont want to voice my opinion/waste my time on every little thing that boils my blood doesnt mean you know any more about hockey than i do, i am confident that i know way more about hockey than you.. your a devils fan for gods sake.

first: did you not watch the world championships? lombardi one of canadas best players other than nash and doan.. john madden cannot say the same, and they are not at all the same type of player, with lombardi probably being the fastest skater in the league.

second: bergfors is a prospect yes, but by no means a "top" prospect, with his 32 points in 60 games (i realize points are not a strong measure of playing ability, but if he is a so called top prospect he would get more ice time, thus put more points on the board)

third: how is langkow, conroy, madden, yelle better than langkow, lombardi, conroy, boyd/yelle??? it isnt. ryder should play the whole year in the AHL next year, and lets just say that conroy isnt the same player he once was (for what two years??).

lets not overrate our hometown players (aka. paul martin) because you think you have created some masterful deal that might actually happen.. because it never will, give up. calgary does not need a top flight pp defenseman because they have phaneuf; giordano stepped up nicely on the pp last year, and with regehr and warrener still on the point i dont really see a need for stuart. hamrlik would be a big loss, but they can find some other cheaper defenseman on free agency instead of trading for paul martin (when they already made the deal for david hale)

try again.

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Old
05-17-2007, 04:33 PM
  #19
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lets get real here... someone always takes a "stab" at how many posts you burn on this site.. why does that matter? just because i dont want to voice my opinion/waste my time on every little thing that boils my blood doesnt mean you know any more about hockey than i do, i am confident that i know way more about hockey than you.. your a devils fan for gods sake.

first: did you not watch the world championships? lombardi one of canadas best players other than nash and doan.. john madden cannot say the same, and they are not at all the same type of player, with lombardi probably being the fastest skater in the league.

second: bergfors is a prospect yes, but by no means a "top" prospect, with his 32 points in 60 games (i realize points are not a strong measure of playing ability, but if he is a so called top prospect he would get more ice time, thus put more points on the board)

third: how is langkow, conroy, madden, yelle better than langkow, lombardi, conroy, boyd/yelle??? it isnt. ryder should play the whole year in the AHL next year, and lets just say that conroy isnt the same player he once was (for what two years??).


lets not overrate our hometown players (aka. paul martin) because you think you have created some masterful deal that might actually happen.. because it never will, give up. calgary does not need a top flight pp defenseman because they have phaneuf; giordano stepped up nicely on the pp last year, and with regehr and warrener still on the point i dont really see a need for stuart. hamrlik would be a big loss, but they can find some other cheaper defenseman on free agency instead of trading for paul martin (when they already made the deal for david hale)


try again.

1st:

I did watch the world championships and Lombardi played verry well but does that make him some kind of "superstar" all of a sudden ??? Last time I checked the worlds isn't a tournament that is filled with the cream of the crop... like the Olympics. I mean c'mon, even Jay McClement and some other guy named Murphy made the team. Lombardi was on the block before the playoffs and all kinds of rumors were going around about him being in his coaches doghouse.

2nd:

How many 20 year old prospects do you know that leads they're team in points in his first year in the AHL at only 19 years of age (he was the youngest player in the AHL that year)??? He'll only get better with time and patience.

3rd:

It isn't, but you guy's would save some $$$ for next summer because you have to resign Iginla, Kipper, Huselius and Regehr and I think that giving up Tanguay (and his contract) in order for Sutter to resign Igy and Kipper would be a smart move... no ???

Conclusion:

Martin is not overated by all means... he's underated by you and alot of people on HF. He's a good puck moving d-men that plays a solid game in his own end. He's head and shoulders above Giordano, Regehr and Warrener regarding the offensive aspect of the game and isn't that far behind Regehr on the defensive aspect of the game (and the David Hale trade was make some space for Andy Greene, who played verrrrrry well and looks to have a promising future)

B.T.W.... it's called proposal, not "I think that there's 100% chance that Lou and Sutter will do this on draft day".


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Old
05-17-2007, 05:23 PM
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DEVILS ALL THE WAY View Post
1st:

I did watch the world championships and Lombardi played verry well but does that make him some kind of "superstar" all of a sudden ??? Last time I checked the worlds isn't a tournament that is filled with the cream of the crop... like the Olympics. I mean c'mon, even Jay McClement and some other guy named Murphy made the team. Lombardi was on the block before the playoffs and all kinds of rumors were going around about him being in his coaches doghouse.

2nd:

How many 20 year old prospects do you know that leads they're team in points in his first year in the AHL at only 19 years of age (he was the youngest player in the AHL that year)??? He'll only get better with time and patience.

3rd:

It isn't, but you guy's would save some $$$ for next summer because you have to resign Iginla, Kipper, Huselius and Regehr and I think that giving up Tanguay (and his contract) in order for Sutter to resign Igy and Kipper would be a smart move... no ???

Conclusion:

Martin is not overated by all means... he's underated by you and alot of people on HF. He's a good puck moving d-men that plays a solid game in his own end. He's head and shoulders above Giordano, Regehr and Warrener regarding the offensive aspect of the game and isn't that far behind Regehr on the defensive aspect of the game (and the David Hale trade was make some space for Andy Greene, who played verrrrrry well and looks to have a promising future)

B.T.W.... it's called proposal, not "I think that there's 100% chance that Lou and Sutter will do this on draft day".
i don't think this proposal saves the flames that much... at least not enough to make it worth it... Martin will probably be seeking a raise into the 3-3.5 range... add that to Maddens contract of 2,938,540 and it would save the flames a grand total of about 800-900k (i assumed 3.25 for martin... but is saving 800-900k worth giving up 2 of your better offensive players? that would seriously leave a big hole in the Flames top 6 (as i see Lombardi spending alot of time as a 2nd line winger... and they wouldn't be saving enough to fill those holes... nothing agains thte guys in the proposal but if there was a deal going to be involving both tanguay & lombardi a strong offensive player would have to be coming the other way

think of it from this perspective... could any team (with the exception of maybe ottawa and buffalo) afford to move 42 goals and 85 assists while getting only 15 goals and 43 assists in return? losing that much offense would move the flames from the top 1/3 in goals for to near the bottom 1/3

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Old
05-17-2007, 05:56 PM
  #21
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this looks ugly for calgary

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05-17-2007, 07:09 PM
  #22
mgeise
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Originally Posted by HankTheTank View Post
this looks ugly for calgary
Agreed. They need more offense, not dramatically less. New Jersey and Calgary may be the worst trading partners in the NHL. They both need to improve their offense. Let Calgary work with us in Buffalo and let New Jersey work with Detroit.

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05-17-2007, 07:45 PM
  #23
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Originally Posted by mgeise88 View Post
Agreed. They need more offense, not dramatically less. New Jersey and Calgary may be the worst trading partners in the NHL. They both need to improve their offense. Let Calgary work with us in Buffalo and let New Jersey work with Detroit.
the flames were SEVENTH in league scoring... people need to get the flames have no offense stigma out of their heads... what the flames need to do is find a solid 2nd line winger who can put up respectable numbers and can create energy through hard work... they also need 3rd liners that can put up a few points and who work hard... most importantly they need to be rid of guys like Amonte, Friesen and Nilson... and just as importantly they need to retain or replace Hamrlik and Stuart

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Old
05-18-2007, 04:12 PM
  #24
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I would like to keep Bergfors and see how he pans out. I 'd also like to Keep Martin, i actually think he will be a better ttwo way D-man than Rafalski, and is much Younger.

Mad-Dog is Tough. You gotta love him as a Devs fan for his crazy work ethic and enthusiasm. I think he is much better as an offensive player than he get credit for. Like what was said earlier, he is playing against all the other teams top lines and PK and still puts up 30-40 points. That is pretty impressive when you look at it.

When he played at Michigan he was an offensive player putting up nearly 1.5 P/g as well as putting up 98 points in 75 games in the AHL. Just wish he had the opportunity to play this way in the NHL. But we have Pelley ready to step into his position.

I like Tanguay, and would love to see him on the Devs, i just do not see the Flamess trading him. He is still younga and has established himself as a top tier player.

Don't think this would fly. But Flames fans are not giving enough Credit to Madden or Martin. I think Most teams would like to either or both of them.

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Old
05-18-2007, 04:20 PM
  #25
AfroThunder396
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Quote:
Originally Posted by loyst21 View Post
this definitely is one of the worst made up proposals i have seen on this site... ever, and yep you are a devils fan so of course you would be all for a lopsided trade
If this is the worst trade proposal you've seen on these boards, you obviously haven't seen many.

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