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Gratton VS Perreault.

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12-22-2003, 09:06 PM
  #1
Munchausen
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Gratton VS Perreault

Well here it is. we now have 3 (count 'em 3!) centers that are very good in faceoff situations. Perreault, Gratton and Begin. The later is injured for 3 months, and the former is bad defensively and seems to be in CJ's dog house. Gratton did a nice job again tonight, winning 9/15 (60%) plus he has decent playmaking skills while being excellent defensively.

Well my point is, since we now have a guy like Gratton who can take faceoffs well in critical game situations, and who's on top of that very good defensively, which means if he loses the draw it's not like it becomes a virtual 5 on 4 like when Perreault loses it, is Perreault still useful?

I know Perreault's the best, but my point's Gratton (and Begin when he'll be back) are good enough. So it seems that aspect of Perreault's game is less important now. All remaining for him is PP specialist, but just how long can a soft defensively liable PP specialist find a spot for himself in a lineup where the coach values tight checking and defensively responsible games?

I'm not saying Perreault will be traded in a week, but he now seems more expandable than ever. We're winning and Perreault's absence does not seem to be felt at all (or maybe it is in a good way who knows). I didn't think BG would be interested in trading Perreault at all costs before, but my new take on the situation is he'll likely give around a 10 day NHL evaluation period to see how well Gratton fits in the picture, and if the results are positive, I would bet BG would seriously and actively start to shop Perreault around.

Because Koivu, Ribeiro, Juneau and Gratton are 4 centers Julien has alot of confidence in (and Begin's an other one falling in that category). And the wings are loaded. There's just no room anymore for Perreault in that team, and I seriously question the utility to keep him in this team.

So two questions come out of this:

1- should we trade him right now or keep him and wait the trading deadline?
2- Is there a market out there for a Yannic Perreault?

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12-22-2003, 09:09 PM
  #2
Jeffrey
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we have too many forward that's for sure !
i dunno what we're gonna do ... but i don't think we're gonna dump Perrault just to dump is salary .. if we trade him it will be to fix a hole or for young prospect (or pick) ..
so
1- Wait trade deadline(unless we got good offers)
2- Yes there is a market! but market will get widder by trade deadline..

possibly team that could look for Perreault : NJ,St-Louis,TB,Trashers,Colorado,Preds(will need faceoff man for playoff) and maybe more ..


Last edited by Jeffrey: 12-22-2003 at 09:14 PM.
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12-23-2003, 03:40 AM
  #3
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When I saw the title, I thought, great, we have a Gratton bandwagon after 2 games, but the question is interesting. If all centers are healthy, I think that the org. would prefer their centers to be Koivu,Ribs,Juneau and Begin. Begin's play has elevated him to the 3rd line while Juneau's health has made him a question mark. My reluctance to move Perreault is based on his ability to replace injured players on the top 2 lines for short periods. He has more value in that role than he does on the the 4th line as most would prefer an energy player on that line. so, without Begin, choose 2 from Perreault,Gratton , Kilger or Juneau. If Ward was back, I wouldn't mind a Langdon-Kilger[Gratton]-Ward line.
The problem is, Perreault would stink on the third line, so Koivu's line would draw the tough assignments. I'm glad I've cleared this up.

I guess it depends on what can be expected from Gratton. if Yannick can be moved for a mid level pick, why not ? His goals can be replaced. If he is just a stationary shooter, Dagenais can fill that role. OK, let's move him.

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12-23-2003, 03:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kryoptix
we have too many forward that's for sure !
i dunno what we're gonna do ... but i don't think we're gonna dump Perrault just to dump is salary .. if we trade him it will be to fix a hole or for young prospect (or pick) ..
so
1- Wait trade deadline(unless we got good offers)
2- Yes there is a market! but market will get widder by trade deadline..

possibly team that could look for Perreault : NJ,St-Louis,TB,Trashers,Colorado,Preds(will need faceoff man for playoff) and maybe more ..
by trade deadline if calgary looks to be going into the playoffs, i think theyd go for him

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12-23-2003, 04:26 AM
  #5
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It's becoming increasingly obvious that this is Perreault's last year with the habs. Ribiero seems to have proven to be able to at least match his abilities as a 2nd line centre, if not surpassed them, leaving Perreault without a job, so the likelyhood of BG shopping has to be high.
As for what kind of return we could get for him, I would think a third rounder (late second) wouldn't be that far out of the question or a mid level prospect with a lower ceiling. the only way I would think that BG makes a Perreault move where we added a roster player would be in some sort of package deal.

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12-23-2003, 04:40 AM
  #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcphee
When I saw the title, I thought, great, we have a Gratton bandwagon after 2 games, but the question is interesting. If all centers are healthy, I think that the org. would prefer their centers to be Koivu,Ribs,Juneau and Begin. Begin's play has elevated him to the 3rd line while Juneau's health has made him a question mark. My reluctance to move Perreault is based on his ability to replace injured players on the top 2 lines for short periods. He has more value in that role than he does on the the 4th line as most would prefer an energy player on that line. so, without Begin, choose 2 from Perreault,Gratton , Kilger or Juneau. If Ward was back, I wouldn't mind a Langdon-Kilger[Gratton]-Ward line.
The problem is, Perreault would stink on the third line, so Koivu's line would draw the tough assignments. I'm glad I've cleared this up.

I guess it depends on what can be expected from Gratton. if Yannick can be moved for a mid level pick, why not ? His goals can be replaced. If he is just a stationary shooter, Dagenais can fill that role. OK, let's move him.
I agree with your POV, as even if we'd all like to have the most depth possible in case of injuries, like if we were in a perfect "video game like" world, the truth is players like Perreault, especially playing for a new contract, won't be happy to play the odd game on the 4th line and fill in when (if) someone gets injured. Even with Begin on the IR, I don't see a spot for Yannic on this team as it's obvious our top-6 is better than him in almost every aspect and as you mentioned, he's not a defensive checker and even less suited for an energy role on a 4th line. In those circumstances, we better move him quick for both his sake and the team's. We probably already have Audette who will start whining after a couple of games out of the lineup and risk messing the fragile harmony that seems to exist in this locker room, I wouldn't want to add Perreault's insatisfaction to the mix.

edit - typo


Last edited by Munchausen: 12-23-2003 at 04:44 AM.
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12-23-2003, 05:25 AM
  #7
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As I recall, Perreault wasn't even being used on key draws late in games anymore. Remember vs the Rags when Begin was injured during the game and Kilger was taking those late draws ?

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12-23-2003, 05:29 AM
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc the Habs Fan
As I recall, Perreault wasn't even being used on key draws late in games anymore. Remember vs the Rags when Begin was injured during the game and Kilger was taking those late draws ?
Yep, and who can blame CJ for that? Perreault's the best at winning faceoffs, but what happens when he doesn't? As I've said above, it just gives a virtual 5 on 4 to the other team as long as they keep the puck cycling within our zone because there's no such thing as "defensive coverage" in Perreault's vocabulary.

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12-23-2003, 06:22 AM
  #9
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We should trade Perreault for a 5th round pick.

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12-23-2003, 06:50 AM
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Hainsey
We should trade Perreault for a 5th round pick.
as we approach the trade deadline Perrault's value will skyrocket for a few reasons...

1)PP specialists and Faceoff gurus (and he's both) are all important in the playoffs where defensive coverage mounts and goals are harder to come by...

2)With the limited ice he's seeing right now, i expect that he'll be more productive when he is on the ice (fresher and more driven to earn a spot somewhere).

3)Most of his salary is gone by the deadline, so the team picking him up doesn't take a big hit at all to have him around for the playoffs.

4)He's a UFA, which makes him more attractive as a 'rent-a-player' because the team isn't stuck paying his salary next season, or in case of a lockout.

5)As much as we love to talk about how bad the guy is defensively, he's a huge asset because he's good for 20goals, 40points, 60%faceoff win percentage, he can pot goals into open nets (unlike dackell missing the wide open net in TO), and he can play the PP reasonably well.

I'd say that he's a top 6 forward in many places, but that he doesn't fit our scheme... for whatever reason we haven't gotten the 4goal nights he once had so i think a change might do him a world of good.

As for Audette, i think he's a wound waiting to fester... we should move him immediately for a bag o' pucks, a 10th rounder DP (if you know what i mean)... that or send his butt to the AHL or ECHL where he can be productive again.

In answer to the initial query:

1)keep him around unless someone calls with exactly what we want for him (ie chouinard to PHI for a 2nd)
2)Hell YES! Lots of teams could use him effectively playing 14minutes a night and taking important faceoffs... wouldn't surprise me to see him go back to the western conference (LA maybe?? if they continue to have abyssmal injury problems)

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12-23-2003, 08:03 AM
  #11
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With the emergence of some underappreciated youth, Perreault has become expendable in my mind. He makes far too much for what he does, but he does have an uncanny ability to score in bunches and get 20 goals. His faceoff ability is strange because normally good faceoff men are good two-way players, but as Munchausen said if he loses the draw he is instantaneously a liability in his own end. Begin and Gratton are both heart and soul guys who will sacrifice their bodies. Perreault isn't.

Personally I'd be willing to waive Perreault and let somebody else take his salary off of our hands for nothing. In reality, what could we get for him? Not much I'd wager. At least save some cash, just my two cents.

Cap

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12-23-2003, 08:22 AM
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Capitano

Personally I'd be willing to waive Perreault and let somebody else take his salary off of our hands for nothing. In reality, what could we get for him? Not much I'd wager. At least save some cash, just my two cents.

Cap

The problem is that if Koivu or Ribiero get injuried, Perrault is exacly the kind of guys we will looking for.... I don't beleive he got a good trade value for now, and he's not a trouble maker in the room.

we would look dumb to waive him now then give a 3rd rounder later for a similar guys.

If i'd waive anyone it would be Juneau when Begin gonna be back

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12-23-2003, 09:09 AM
  #13
Capitano
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beatnik
The problem is that if Koivu or Ribiero get injuried, Perrault is exacly the kind of guys we will looking for.... I don't beleive he got a good trade value for now, and he's not a trouble maker in the room.

we would look dumb to waive him now then give a 3rd rounder later for a similar guys.

If i'd waive anyone it would be Juneau when Begin gonna be back
The way I see it, I'd rather have Hossa fill in rather than Perreault. Like I said, I don't hate Perreault, I just think that he makes too much for what he does. I'm not saying Hossa is better, but I think he could do just as well.

Cap

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12-23-2003, 09:21 AM
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sigh...once again .. Perrault has a no trade clause folks. He's not going anywhere. He's still one of our leading scorers, and he's only played 29 games.

You don't replace Perrault with a Gratton, or Begin. There is a reason Begin has jumped from team to team, been put on waivers etc. Sure, he's played well for us, but he isn't a goal scorer nor is he a face-off specialist.

Gratton is an AHL player, he won't crack any NHL lineup except on an injury basis. That's a fact, so why are so many sending such praise after two games? He was invisible the first game, and he had an assist his second game.

We have to stop over-evaluating our depth, and face reality. This team needs size down the middle, and help on the backend. Because, when the team goes into a five game skid, and they will, the old faithful will be calling for the same players heads they so willingly praise today.

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12-23-2003, 09:51 AM
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Capitano
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Habs
sigh...once again .. Perrault has a no trade clause folks. He's not going anywhere. He's still one of our leading scorers, and he's only played 29 games.

You don't replace Perrault with a Gratton, or Begin. There is a reason Begin has jumped from team to team, been put on waivers etc. Sure, he's played well for us, but he isn't a goal scorer nor is he a face-off specialist.

Gratton is an AHL player, he won't crack any NHL lineup except on an injury basis. That's a fact, so why are so many sending such praise after two games? He was invisible the first game, and he had an assist his second game.

We have to stop over-evaluating our depth, and face reality. This team needs size down the middle, and help on the backend. Because, when the team goes into a five game skid, and they will, the old faithful will be calling for the same players heads they so willingly praise today.
I disagree entirely with this statement. I think Gratton is a good energy guy that is willing to do anything to help his team win. Perreault is a good faceoff man and he can score 20 goals a season (nothing to sneeze at) but I think the team needs energy more than size. Begin isn't big and he fit the bill perfectly.

What good is size if guys like Kilger doesn't use it? Perreault isn't an energy guy or a guy that uses his size. Essentially it's Ribeiro or Perreault, and I'd rather have Ribeiro 10 times out of 10.

Cap

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12-23-2003, 09:51 AM
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Habs
sigh...once again .. Perrault has a no trade clause folks. He's not going anywhere. He's still one of our leading scorers, and he's only played 29 games.
Perreault is also an UFA at season's end. He'll be looking for a fresh new contract. Getting benched in Mtl for 2 games out of 4 won't give him much leverage in future contract negociations. I guess he knows that his 3M and limited abilities doesn't make him the premium prize of the deadline. If Gainey manages to work out a trade for him it's in his best interest to accept the trade and move on.

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12-23-2003, 09:57 AM
  #17
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Originally Posted by Habsolution
Perreault is also an UFA at season's end. He'll be looking for a fresh new contract. Getting benched in Mtl for 2 games out of 4 won't give him much leverage in future contract negociations. I guess he knows that his 3M and limited abilities doesn't make him the premium prize of the deadline. If Gainey manages to work out a trade for him it's in his best interest to accept the trade and move on.
VERY good point Habsolution! Perreault can't prove he's worth the millions he makes if he's sitting on the bench...it would be in his best interest to accept a trade...but again, I don't think we'd get much of anything for him.

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12-23-2003, 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Capitano
I disagree entirely with this statement. I think Gratton is a good energy guy that is willing to do anything to help his team win.
This quality you speak of, has not found him a job on any NHL team in his career. There is a reason for this, as two other teams besides Montreal have deemed him an AHL player at best. From Washingto, to Portland, to Calgary to St.Johns, to Quebec. What exactly am I missing here? Energy player? Never landed him a full time job anywhere so far.

Let's get serious. Gratton isn't staying in Montreal, he is strictly a role player in the AHL, and can't be relied upon to fill any role on this team.

Quote:
Perreault is a good faceoff man and he can score 20 goals a season (nothing to sneeze at) but I think the team needs energy more than size. Begin isn't big and he fit the bill perfectly.
I'm not a fan of Perrault, and I never have been. However, Begin..nor Gratton, are replacing his faceoff skills, or goal output, in this lifetime.

Quote:
What good is size if guys like Kilger doesn't use it? Perreault isn't an energy guy or a guy that uses his size. Essentially it's Ribeiro or Perreault, and I'd rather have Ribeiro 10 times out of 10.

Cap
Funny how the troops were so eager to get Kilger back, but now he is deemed as useless. Such is the way in Montreal, and yet another reason for our lack of patience with players.

Listen, Kilger's biggest fault is he was a first round draft pick. Last season he did a fine job, and found a home in Montreal. This year, he had an eye injury, was behind in conditioning and found himself on the outside looking in.

He will never be a 20 goal scorer. He can bang, bring some energy.. and pop in the odd goal. He's decen on the PK, and was solid last season on the second PP unit.

I'm not sure what you expect out of him. He has been using his size, but he's not going to produce on the fourth line... not with Langdon.

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12-23-2003, 03:25 PM
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Habs
sigh...once again .. Perrault has a no trade clause folks. He's not going anywhere. He's still one of our leading scorers, and he's only played 29 games.

You don't replace Perrault with a Gratton, or Begin. There is a reason Begin has jumped from team to team, been put on waivers etc. Sure, he's played well for us, but he isn't a goal scorer nor is he a face-off specialist.

Gratton is an AHL player, he won't crack any NHL lineup except on an injury basis. That's a fact, so why are so many sending such praise after two games? He was invisible the first game, and he had an assist his second game.

We have to stop over-evaluating our depth, and face reality. This team needs size down the middle, and help on the backend. Because, when the team goes into a five game skid, and they will, the old faithful will be calling for the same players heads they so willingly praise today.
Sigh.... we have to stop arbitrarily categorizing our players as career AHLers or journeymen who jump from team to team. Circumstances may have prevented these players from having an opportunity earlier in their careers.

We have to stop making snap decisions because they were invisible in the first game they played this year.

And the Habs aren't replacing Perreault with Begin or Gratton. They have replaced him with Ribeiro.

Each player has a role on the team. If they don't fill that role (in this case a 2nd line center) and aren't suited to another role (3rd line center), what to you do with them.

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12-23-2003, 04:38 PM
  #20
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Originally Posted by Barney Rubble
Sigh.... we have to stop arbitrarily categorizing our players as career AHLers or journeymen who jump from team to team. Circumstances may have prevented these players from having an opportunity earlier in their careers.
Or, perhaps it's yet another case of the fan base over-rating the talent on the farm.

If the player called up was Higgins, Plekanek.. a rookie with untapped potential.. I'd be all for it.

Gratton is not, and will not, be a player for this team.

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12-23-2003, 04:46 PM
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Habs
Or, perhaps it's yet another case of the fan base over-rating the talent on the farm.

If the player called up was Higgins, Plekanek.. a rookie with untapped potential.. I'd be all for it.

Gratton is not, and will not, be a player for this team.
Gratton: 25 14 20 34
Plekanec: 32 11 13 24

we needed a 4th line C
Gratton is far more ready for this job then Plekanec or Higgins and showed he can also produce offensivly.

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12-23-2003, 05:36 PM
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plekanec
Gratton is playing on the first line and get first PP unit with the Bulldogs, this make a major difference... If you look them play, you will see that Plekanec is just alot more skilled than Gratton!
as i said we needed a 4th line safe guys not a 2nd line ones. And Plekanec will have more quality icetime with Gratton here.

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12-23-2003, 07:13 PM
  #23
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Trade him for something right now if we can , even if it's lower than what we could have at the TDL . With Juneau still around and Kilger , Gratton who can play center it's all good even if Perrault had some good game on the 4th with likes of Dagenais or Sundstrom . Plus Higgins or Plekanec could come here and play a couple of games if needed .

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