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Pick 6

View Poll Results: Who are your top-6 defenseman? ONLY pick 6
Erik Johnson 40 100.00%
Barrett Jackman 39 97.50%
Christian Backman 25 62.50%
Eric Brewer 40 100.00%
Jay McKee 37 92.50%
Bryce Salvador 24 60.00%
Jeff Woywitka 23 57.50%
Matt Walker 2 5.00%
Roman Polak 10 25.00%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 40. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
04-20-2007, 03:47 PM
  #1
Stealth JD
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Pick 6

Expanding upon the "odd man out" poll, since I think several of the guys not listed could be shipped out....

Pick your ideal top-6 for the Blues next year. The top-6 vote getters would be the fans choice....the rest would be the odd men out. The 7th highest vote should probably make the roster as the extra D-man, the rest should be shipped down or out (according to the voters).

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04-20-2007, 07:42 PM
  #2
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The first six you have listed are all but garaunteed roster spots.

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04-23-2007, 12:48 PM
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c-carp
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Originally Posted by Jackmans Domain View Post
Expanding upon the "odd man out" poll, since I think several of the guys not listed could be shipped out....

Pick your ideal top-6 for the Blues next year. The top-6 vote getters would be the fans choice....the rest would be the odd men out. The 7th highest vote should probably make the roster as the extra D-man, the rest should be shipped down or out (according to the voters).
The big name that I left out was Backman because I think he will be moved before the start of the season. Possibly packaged at the draft to move up and get a guy we really want.


Here would be my six

Jackman-Brewer
McKee-E.Johnson
Salvador-Polak

Woywitka-spare guy

Walker-first call up although he could switch spots with Woywitka with a strong camp.


Last edited by c-carp: 04-23-2007 at 12:51 PM. Reason: more to say
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Old
04-23-2007, 02:15 PM
  #4
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Originally Posted by c-carp View Post
The big name that I left out was Backman because I think he will be moved before the start of the season. Possibly packaged at the draft to move up and get a guy we really want.


Here would be my six

Jackman-Brewer
McKee-E.Johnson
Salvador-Polak

Woywitka-spare guy

Walker-first call up although he could switch spots with Woywitka with a strong camp.
I got the same top 6, but would have them paired this way.

Jackman - EJ (Jax passes along the tutoring he got from Mac in his rookie season)

Brewer - Salvador - (Salvador provides a good safety net for Brewer's
frequent rushes up the ice, and leaving the defensive zone too quickly.)

McKee- Pola'k - (Lots of grit, shotblocking, and hard hits from the 3rd pairing)

Walker and Wyowitka serve as the 7th and 8th dman, alternating depending on the opponent.

Backman gone for offensive help.

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04-24-2007, 01:11 PM
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It depends on how we're looking at this. IF those are the players we take into next season, then yes Backman is in the top 6. I also didn't vote for him because I expect (hope) he'll be dealt on draft day.

From that list though, I'd go

Jackman
Brewer
Backman
McKee
Johnson
Woywitka

With either Salvador or Polak as the #7 guy.

My hopeful top 6 would have Backman gone and Polak as the #6, with Salvador as the reliable #7 guy.

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04-24-2007, 03:59 PM
  #6
c-carp
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One more small point I think the main guy who is going to mentor EJ is already retired and that is Al MacInnis. I wouldnt be suprised to see him live at the MacInnis house for a period while he learns the city he is still a 19 year old kid.

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04-24-2007, 04:01 PM
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c-carp
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Originally Posted by CuSa_1 View Post
It depends on how we're looking at this. IF those are the players we take into next season, then yes Backman is in the top 6. I also didn't vote for him because I expect (hope) he'll be dealt on draft day.

From that list though, I'd go

Jackman
Brewer
Backman
McKee
Johnson
Woywitka

With either Salvador or Polak as the #7 guy.

My hopeful top 6 would have Backman gone and Polak as the #6, with Salvador as the reliable #7 guy.
I could live with Woywitka in the top 6 if he earns it but as of right now I would have him as the spare. I thought that Polak played as good or better up here. It is nice to have depth here though.

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04-24-2007, 04:10 PM
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looks like nearly everybody (37 of 40) has a top-4 of Jackman, Johnson, Brewer and McKee.

It's pretty evenly split amongst Woywitka, Salvador & Backman for spots 5-7, which means until one of them is moved out Pola'k and Walker should be in Peoria (according to the voters).

I tend to agree that Polak and Walker are on the outside looking in, and that the top-4 vote getters will be on the club come hell or high-water. I also tend to believe that Salvador is safer than Woywitka is safer than Backman....only because Backman probably has the highest trade value amongst guys available.

If Backman is moved, Woywitka (70 games) Salvador (60 games) and Walker (34 games) rotate amongst the 5-6 spots with Pola'k being the first called up in case of injury.

do these results lead anyone to believe something otherwise? (not that these votes will influence anything going on at 14th and Clark)

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Old
04-24-2007, 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted by c-carp View Post
One more small point I think the main guy who is going to mentor EJ is already retired and that is Al MacInnis. I wouldnt be suprised to see him live at the MacInnis house for a period while he learns the city he is still a 19 year old kid.
Hadn't thought about that, but you make a good point.

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04-24-2007, 05:53 PM
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Originally Posted by c-carp View Post
I could live with Woywitka in the top 6 if he earns it but as of right now I would have him as the spare. I thought that Polak played as good or better up here. It is nice to have depth here though.
Carp, I generally agree with what you say, but how has Pola'k performed, in a very sparse duty no less, "better or as good as" Woywitka? I'm not trying to say that Pola'k won't be a fine defenseman, but he had a limited role on the end of our season, and I don't recall one thing that stood out, IMHO. Woywitka, on the other hand, showed to me the promise of his early reports, wheels, stickhandling, size, and awareness. He could use some poise and confidence; these come with time. Pola'k, while having considerable upside, is nowhere near as ready for the daily grind that is the NHL.

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04-25-2007, 01:08 PM
  #11
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Brewer is tied for the lead!? WOW.

Personally, I favor the guy, I think he can be a lot better than he was at certain stretches last season but I wouldn't guess he'd be placing ahead of Barret Jackman for a top 6 dman spot...

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04-25-2007, 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by StLooFrenchy View Post
Carp, I generally agree with what you say, but how has Pola'k performed, in a very sparse duty no less, "better or as good as" Woywitka? I'm not trying to say that Pola'k won't be a fine defenseman, but he had a limited role on the end of our season, and I don't recall one thing that stood out, IMHO. Woywitka, on the other hand, showed to me the promise of his early reports, wheels, stickhandling, size, and awareness. He could use some poise and confidence; these come with time. Pola'k, while having considerable upside, is nowhere near as ready for the daily grind that is the NHL.
I tend to agree with Carp on Pola'k.
He is much stronger on the puck than Wyowitka, a real battler on the boards. For a 20 year old, plays a very sound positional game in his end, and consistently throws really rugged bodychecks.
Also has a pretty good shot from the point, that I think will be more productive with experience and icetime.

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04-25-2007, 01:25 PM
  #13
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I just can't see the Blues sending Woywitka down. I feel being sent to the AHL will just hurt his developement. I see him staying up and it won't hurt to send Polak down seeing hows he's only 20 and you're not going to pay Salvador that much money to be a 7th d-man.

Brewer
Jackman
Johnson
McKee
Salvador
Woywitka

Backman and Walker being the odd men out

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04-26-2007, 03:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Jackmans Domain View Post
looks like nearly everybody (37 of 40) has a top-4 of Jackman, Johnson, Brewer and McKee.

It's pretty evenly split amongst Woywitka, Salvador & Backman for spots 5-7, which means until one of them is moved out Pola'k and Walker should be in Peoria (according to the voters).

I tend to agree that Polak and Walker are on the outside looking in, and that the top-4 vote getters will be on the club come hell or high-water. I also tend to believe that Salvador is safer than Woywitka is safer than Backman....only because Backman probably has the highest trade value amongst guys available.

If Backman is moved, Woywitka (70 games) Salvador (60 games) and Walker (34 games) rotate amongst the 5-6 spots with Pola'k being the first called up in case of injury.

do these results lead anyone to believe something otherwise? (not that these votes will influence anything going on at 14th and Clark)
Except that many (myself included) left out Backman BECAUSE they think he'll be gone.

If the poll is premised with the idea that those are the guys we are going to have next year, Backman would easily make the list. If Backman is on the team next year, he will be in the top 5.

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04-26-2007, 07:35 PM
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Just a thought, who is going to be the PP QB? I know Brewer isn't the answer. Is it really fair to EJ to throw him to the wolves immediately? Everyone keeps posting about the Blues strength on defense and as a long time fan I just don't see it. I know Al is going to be there to help EJ as well as the other veteran guys, but Al isn't playing anymore and with the other guys there are holes. I know we need help at forward, but there are some quality UFA guys like Hamrlik, Rafalski and Preissing available that could help the PP immediately. A cheaper, but older, guy that plays the game the right way is Numminen of Buffalo. He can still move the puck and would give EJ a playing coach on ice to ease the transition. One more smart guy that our guys could learn a lot from is Chelios, but he's a little old for PP QB.

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05-13-2007, 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by lee17 View Post
Just a thought, who is going to be the PP QB? I know Brewer isn't the answer. Is it really fair to EJ to throw him to the wolves immediately? Everyone keeps posting about the Blues strength on defense and as a long time fan I just don't see it. I know Al is going to be there to help EJ as well as the other veteran guys, but Al isn't playing anymore and with the other guys there are holes. I know we need help at forward, but there are some quality UFA guys like Hamrlik, Rafalski and Preissing available that could help the PP immediately. A cheaper, but older, guy that plays the game the right way is Numminen of Buffalo. He can still move the puck and would give EJ a playing coach on ice to ease the transition. One more smart guy that our guys could learn a lot from is Chelios, but he's a little old for PP QB.
Chelios? NEVER!

How can you not see how deep we are at defense? We may be lacking a real #1 right now, but we are chalk full of 2-4 defensman. I't like having the #2 and #3 dmen out there at all times. There really shouldn't be a time next year where we're worried because playerX is out there on defense. No Khavanov, Pilon, Hill, Gusarov, etc.

Jackman
Backman
Brewer
McKee
Johnson
Woywitka
Polak
Salvodor
Walker

You're telling me that there aren't 6 players that you feel will get the job done when on the ice?

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05-14-2007, 08:52 AM
  #17
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Of all the guys on that list how many of them would be top 4 on a top 8 team? If the Blues hadn't injuries to McKee, Woywitka, Polak and possibly even Walker would never have seen the ice. For the Blues to become an elite team, which should be the goal, I look at the teams in the final four now. McKee, if healthy, Jackman and Brewer
are the only guys that would be guaranteed any icetime at all. Salvador is a #7 d-man on a good team. Until Backman develops some sort of consistency come playoff time he collects splinters. You really can't count EJ yet as he hasn't played. I do think he will be THE GUY, the #1 we need, eventually, but not as a rookie. I stand by what I said we need help on D. We need a PP QB. The Blues do have a solid defense 1-8 for a non contending team. I threw out Chelios to draw some fire, I guess it worked. IMO we need an offensive D-man, some wingers that actually know what to do with the puck, a steady guy at center, and for an awesome day at the draft. I just hope Jarmo leaves his cousins in Europe and quits drafting guys that won't come over.

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05-14-2007, 09:36 AM
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Salvador a #7 dman? Find me a team in the nhl that has 6 defensemen better than Salvador. He may not have much offense, but he's sound defensively, plays the body on the rush better than anybody we have, has the strength to match up with the big boys in front of the net, and can/and will, drop the gloves with anybody to protect his teammates.

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05-14-2007, 10:59 AM
  #19
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Originally Posted by lee17 View Post
Salvador is a #7 d-man on a good team.

1) "Defense" has NOTHING to do with offensive production. When healthy, the Blues set of Defensemen is EASILY one of the top 5 groups in the league when it comes to "shut down" ability. We may not have that "flashy" #1 D man who can rack up 50-60 points a year; but point totals are HARDLY the determining factor when grading D men.


2) Statistically speaking Bryce Salvador has been the 2nd best shot blocker in the league over the last 4 seasons next to Jay McKee. What does McKee do so much better than Salvy that one is a legit top 4 guy and one is a "#7 D man on a good team". They're the EXACT same player.

Bryce Salvador is a top 5 D man on ANY team in the league and he is a top 4 D man on MOST teams in the league.

On top of not understanding what a Defenseman's actual job is, you are A) grossly under-rating Salvador and B) grossly over-rating the overall depth of defensemen throughout the league.

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05-14-2007, 11:58 AM
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barnburner View Post
I tend to agree with Carp on Pola'k.
He is much stronger on the puck than Wyowitka, a real battler on the boards. For a 20 year old, plays a very sound positional game in his end, and consistently throws really rugged bodychecks.
Also has a pretty good shot from the point, that I think will be more productive with experience and icetime.
I see Polak as Barrett Jackman part 2. Both are a bit undersized as far as defensemen go. But they hit hard, they can skate, and play solid positional defense. Barrett is more of a leader at this point, but Polak is developing at a rapid rate, and the sky is the limit for him.

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05-14-2007, 03:15 PM
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Originally Posted by lee17 View Post
Of all the guys on that list how many of them would be top 4 on a top 8 team? If the Blues hadn't injuries to McKee, Woywitka, Polak and possibly even Walker would never have seen the ice. For the Blues to become an elite team, which should be the goal, I look at the teams in the final four now. McKee, if healthy, Jackman and Brewer
are the only guys that would be guaranteed any icetime at all. Salvador is a #7 d-man on a good team. Until Backman develops some sort of consistency come playoff time he collects splinters. You really can't count EJ yet as he hasn't played. I do think he will be THE GUY, the #1 we need, eventually, but not as a rookie. I stand by what I said we need help on D. We need a PP QB. The Blues do have a solid defense 1-8 for a non contending team. I threw out Chelios to draw some fire, I guess it worked. IMO we need an offensive D-man, some wingers that actually know what to do with the puck, a steady guy at center, and for an awesome day at the draft. I just hope Jarmo leaves his cousins in Europe and quits drafting guys that won't come over.
I understand and agree with much you say here, bro. EJ can't be counted yet, as you correctly stated, but extend the same patience to Woywitka and Polak, they were in their first year with limited ice, we don't know what they will be (but I like the signs). I agree with you on Salvador, I feel he is vastly over-rated on this board. He blocks shots like a champ, can SOMETIMES play physical, yet at times his decision making process grinds to a complete halt under pressure. With Salvy, what you see is all there is, he is a #6 D on his best days; not a knock on him at all, he does his job with a quiet efficiency.

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05-14-2007, 04:36 PM
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1) "Defense" has NOTHING to do with offensive production. When healthy, the Blues set of Defensemen is EASILY one of the top 5 groups in the league when it comes to "shut down" ability. We may not have that "flashy" #1 D man who can rack up 50-60 points a year; but point totals are HARDLY the determining factor when grading D men.


2) Statistically speaking Bryce Salvador has been the 2nd best shot blocker in the league over the last 4 seasons next to Jay McKee. What does McKee do so much better than Salvy that one is a legit top 4 guy and one is a "#7 D man on a good team". They're the EXACT same player.

Bryce Salvador is a top 5 D man on ANY team in the league and he is a top 4 D man on MOST teams in the league.

On top of not understanding what a Defenseman's actual job is, you are A) grossly under-rating Salvador and B) grossly over-rating the overall depth of defensemen throughout the league.
Kimzey, I normally agree with you, but I think you are underrating the importance of a defenseman in the transition game. That is part of a defenseman's actual job. We are blessed with a bunch of board chippers right now. The reason we were so good with MacInnis and Pronger was our transition game IE. the first pass out of the zone. The Blues do not move the puck very well out of their own zone. Brewer is color blind, but he can carry the puck. Jackman ices the puck too much. (home run passes, sometimes he hits) McKee when he played actually made a good first pass. Salvador has no need for teammates. Backman is a good passer, but panics under pressure. (We lack good pass receivers as well.) Woywitka and Polak definitely need some work in that area, but show some promise. Walker's job will rest in how often his gloves are off. He isn't paid to make passes.

If you can find someone who will take Salvador as a #5 defenseman or #4, then let's make a deal for a forward. Salvador had the best season of his career, but I would trade him in a heartbeat for a high draft pick or a 20 goal scorer. Keep in mind Kimzey, come playoff time, the entire team had to shut down. That doesn't say much for our roster be any good in general, when half the teams make the playoffs.

I disagree that Mckee and Salvador are the same player also. McKee is one of the best positional players that I have seen over the past 30 years. RARELY do you see him caught out of position or caught up ice. He knows his limitations. If Salvador would watch and learn from McKee, then we may have something. Salvador runs around too much in his own zone. Bryce needs to shoot more. (He's got a good shot.) He needs to hold the puck longer and make a pass. (He has shown flashes, but last year elected to settle for dumping the puck in the neutral zone.) The game is more about puck control now, and I wish that Salvador would adjust. Otherwise, I would trade him, if he has any value. With the crew we have, I would make him a #7 as well or trade him and let the kids play. He is a very good defensive defenseman, but with the defensemen that we already have, he is expendable.

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05-14-2007, 05:02 PM
  #23
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Kimzey, I normally agree with you, but I think you are underrating the importance of a defenseman in the transition game. That is part of a defenseman's actual job. We are blessed with a bunch of board chippers right now. The reason we were so good with MacInnis and Pronger was our transition game IE. the first pass out of the zone. The Blues do not move the puck very well out of their own zone. Brewer is color blind, but he can carry the puck. Jackman ices the puck too much. (home run passes, sometimes he hits) McKee when he played actually made a good first pass. Salvador has no need for teammates. Backman is a good passer, but panics under pressure. (We lack good pass receivers as well.) Woywitka and Polak definitely need some work in that area, but show some promise. Walker's job will rest in how often his gloves are off. He isn't paid to make passes.

If you can find someone who will take Salvador as a #5 defenseman or #4, then let's make a deal for a forward. Salvador had the best season of his career, but I would trade him in a heartbeat for a high draft pick or a 20 goal scorer. Keep in mind Kimzey, come playoff time, the entire team had to shut down. That doesn't say much for our roster be any good in general, when half the teams make the playoffs.

I disagree that Mckee and Salvador are the same player also. McKee is one of the best positional players that I have seen over the past 30 years. RARELY do you see him caught out of position or caught up ice. He knows his limitations. If Salvador would watch and learn from McKee, then we may have something. Salvador runs around too much in his own zone. Bryce needs to shoot more. (He's got a good shot.) He needs to hold the puck longer and make a pass. (He has shown flashes, but last year elected to settle for dumping the puck in the neutral zone.) The game is more about puck control now, and I wish that Salvador would adjust. Otherwise, I would trade him, if he has any value. With the crew we have, I would make him a #7 as well or trade him and let the kids play. He is a very good defensive defenseman, but with the defensemen that we already have, he is expendable.
I don't think Kimzey is saying Salvador is expendable by any means.

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05-14-2007, 05:10 PM
  #24
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Originally Posted by StLooFrenchy View Post
Carp, I generally agree with what you say, but how has Pola'k performed, in a very sparse duty no less, "better or as good as" Woywitka? I'm not trying to say that Pola'k won't be a fine defenseman, but he had a limited role on the end of our season, and I don't recall one thing that stood out, IMHO. Woywitka, on the other hand, showed to me the promise of his early reports, wheels, stickhandling, size, and awareness. He could use some poise and confidence; these come with time. Pola'k, while having considerable upside, is nowhere near as ready for the daily grind that is the NHL.
It was based upon just what I saw when they played. I thought that Polak showed more. I think this will be settled in camp in a healthy competition between the two. Woywitka may well win the job. I have been wrong in predictions as often as anyone. It is sure nice to have some kids in the system that are good enough to create healthy competition for a spot as opposed to when our system had nothing in it at all.

Matt Walker will be in this mix as well during camp, as our D gets more talented you will be able to use him better and allow him to just add what he adds. which is enough ability to play and a lot of toughness.

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05-14-2007, 05:49 PM
  #25
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Salvador Brewer
Jackman Johnson
McKee Woywitka

Polak
Walker
Mozjis

assuming Backman gets traded

and when am i able to vote?

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