HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The History of Hockey
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

The Hockey News Top-100 List *Updated* (READ ALL BEFORE POSTING!)

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
05-21-2007, 03:01 AM
  #1
EagleBelfour
Registered User
 
EagleBelfour's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,416
vCash: 500
The Hockey News Top-100 List *Updated* (READ ALL BEFORE POSTING!)

This is the Hockey News list of the top-100 players who ever played in the National Hockey League. This list was produced around 1997 by a panel of hockey experts, which includes Don Cherry, Milt Dunnell, Stan Fischler, Bob McKenzie, Dick Irvin, Al Arbour, Marcel Pronovost, Scotty Bowman, Frank Selke, Harry Sinden and many mores.

The exercice I would like to do, is trying to update this list.

However, there are a few important rules that would need to be followed:

1- This thread isn’t the place to discuss who of Jean Beliveau and Maurice Richard or Doug Harney and Eddie Shore is the better player. More than 30 experts came up with this list and even though they can be wrong, this list is probably the most exaustive and complete ever created. Hockey isn’t mathematics: it’s subjective. I don’t want this thread to be the battle of comparision between old timers, which was debated to death. We will have enough to do only with the 1990’s and 2000’s players.

2- Players should only get recognition for what they have accomplished in the NHL. Junior years, WHA or the various european leagues should be ruled off. This rules mean that players like Igor Larionov and Viacheslav Fetisov, who only spent little time in the NHL, should be ruled out.

3- Players who havn’t played in the NHL after the 1996-97 season can’t change position. They can move up or down the list only if an active player after the 1996-97 season was raised or lowered.

4- A player who was active after the 1996-97 season can move up or down the list. Longevity and the quality of hockey a player have demonstrate during their career is a major factor that should be taken into consideration. If a player show he can still dominate at the last breath of his career, that shoud count for him (ex: Dominik Hasek). However, if a player who had great sucess isn’t able to be near this standard of quality later in his career, it should count against him (ex: Eric Lindros).

5- If a player can’t be define by the career he had after 1997, his place on the standing shouldn’t change drastically. The argument you will make on why a certain player has move up or down your list should only take consideration the years he played after 1997. For example, if you think Mike Gartner should be in the top-50, you can’t raise him from 89 to 50 just like that (he only played one season after 1997).

Players in bold are the one who were active in the NHL after 1997

The Hockey News Top-100 NHL Players of All-Time

1- Wayne Gretzky
2- Bobby Orr
3- Gordie Howe
4- Mario Lemieux
5- Maurice Richard
6- Doug Harney
7- Jean Béliveau
8- Bobby Hull
9- Terry Sawchuk
10- Eddie Shore
11- Guy Lafleur
12- Mark Messier
13- Jacques Plante
14- Raymond Bourque
15- Howie Morenz
16- Glenn Hall
17- Stan Mikita
18- Phil Esposito
19- Denis Potvin
20- Mike Bossy
21- Ted Lindsay
22- Red Kelly
23- Bobby Clarke
24- Larry Robinson
25- Ken Dryden
26- Frank Mahovlich
27- Milt Schmidt
28- Paul Coffey
29- Henri Richard
30- Bryan Trottier
31- Dickie Moore
32- Newsy Lalonde
33- Syl Apps Sr.
34- Bill Durnan
35- Patrick Roy
36- Charlie Conacher
37- Jaromir Jagr
38- Marcel Dionne
39- Joe Malone
40- Chris Chelios
41- Dit Clapper
42- Bernard Geoffrion
43- Tim Horton
44- Bill Cook
45- Johnny Bucyk
46- George Hainsworth
47- Gilbert Perreault
48- Max Bentley
49- Brad Park
50- Jari Kurri
51- Nels Stewart
52- King Clancy
53- Bill Cowley
54- Eric Lindros
55- Busher Jackson
56- Peter Stastny
57- Ted Kennedy
58- Andy Bathgate
59- Pierre Pilote
60- Turk Broda
61- Frank Boucher
62- Cy Dennedy
63- Bernard Parent
64- Brett Hull
65- Aurel Joliat
66- Toe Blake
67- Frank Brismek
68- Elmer Lach
69- Dave Keon
70- Grant Fuhr
71- Brian Leetch
72- Earl Seibert
73- Doug Bentley
74- Borje Salming
75- George Vezina
76- Chuck Gardiner
77- Clint Benedict
78- Steve Yzerman
79- Tony Esposito
80- Billy Smith
81- Serge Savard
82- Alex Delvecchio
83- Cecil Dye
84- Lorne Chabot
85- Sid Abel
86- Bob Gainey
87- Johnny Bower
88- Sprague Cleghorn
89- Mark Gartner
90- Norm Ullman
91- Sweeney Schriner
92- Joe Primeau
93- Darryl Sittler
94- Joe Sakic
95- Dominik Hasek
96- Walter Pratt
97- Jack Stewart
98- Yvan Cournoyer
99- Bill Gadsby
100- Frank Nighbor

I have made a list of players that should get consideration to move up in the top-100. Most of these players get recognition in the All-Time draft top-100 (and that his including players like Kharlamov, Fetisov and Tretiak, that are ruled out in here).

Ed Belfour
Rob Blake
Martin Brodeur
Pavel Bure
Sergei Fedorov
Adam Foote
Peter Forsberg
Ron Francis
Doug Gilmour
Niklas Lidstrom
Al MacInnis
Larry Murphy
Scott Niedermayer
Chris Pronger
Luc Robitaille
Brendan Shanahan
Scott Stevens
Mats Sundin

Have fun! (BTW, my list will come soon)


Last edited by EagleBelfour: 05-21-2007 at 03:14 AM.
EagleBelfour is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-21-2007, 03:17 AM
  #2
Big Phil
Registered User
 
Big Phil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 23,896
vCash: 500
Gretzky, Lemieux, Bourque, Messier and Coffey wont move. Jagr has got to be at around #15-20 by now. I'd put him around Phil Esposito. Chelios and Roy have moved up although Chelly just a bit. Roy might be in Jagr's area. Yzerman is definetly up there. It wouldnt be wrong to put him at around #25. Sakic is close to #30. Hasek would be around Roy's neighbourhood. Brodeur wouldnt be far behind now either. I think Lindros has slipped a bit. He was expected to crack the top 50 for sure (at the time Tkachuk and Berard were too) but he hasnt gone up since '97 and for sure a lot of guys have taken his place. Forsberg can arguabl e a top 50 player now. Lidstrom is in the #30-35 range. Blake is not near that, nor is Robitaille, Sundin.

Niedermayer might someday be there but not today, ditto Pronger. Hull played good even after '97. He wasnt the lethal goal scorer but he won a pair of Cups, he certainly didnt go DOWN the list. Leetch did most of his damage before '97 he isnt any further up. Belfour? No. Francis should have climbed a bit but only because he finally got recognized. Just remember some great player has to be bumped off that list. Its hard to see a guy like Dionne or Perreault pushed out of the top 50 but most would agree Dionne wasnt as good as Lidstrom or Hasek or Sakic. Heck even Forsberg all-time gives him a run for his money. Oh and somewhere between Richard and Shore you'll someday find a kid that wears #87 playing right now in the NHL.

Big Phil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-21-2007, 03:29 AM
  #3
Big Phil
Registered User
 
Big Phil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 23,896
vCash: 500
I know the experts that made this list and its amazing the work that went into it. I dont second guess any of them but part of the fun is doing just that, this is what makes Hockey so great. But anyways on that all-time list does anyone else find guys like Elmer Lach and Sid Abel to be a little too low on this list while others like Johnny Bucyk seem to be a little too high? Hey I love Johnny but was he really better than Park and Perreault? He's one guy that should be outside of the top 50. Maybe #75. And Bill Durnan? Should he be that high?

Oh and a funny stat. Dionne at #38 is the highest rated player to never win a Cup. Everyone else ahead of him has won at least one, mostly more. It just goes to show you that winning is a big part in how good of a player you're viewed as. Dionne may go down in history as the best to never win a Cup. But after every huge regular season and a normal post season Joe Thornton will be knocking on the door someday IMO.

Big Phil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-21-2007, 03:54 AM
  #4
Bruins4Lifer
Registered User
 
Bruins4Lifer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Regina, SK
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,216
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Oh and a funny stat. Dionne at #38 is the highest rated player to never win a Cup. Everyone else ahead of him has won at least one, mostly more. It just goes to show you that winning is a big part in how good of a player you're viewed as. Dionne may go down in history as the best to never win a Cup.
Keep in mind that the list was made before Bourque (#14) won his first and only Cup.

Bruins4Lifer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-21-2007, 04:20 AM
  #5
Big Phil
Registered User
 
Big Phil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 23,896
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruins4Lifer View Post
Keep in mind that the list was made before Bourque (#14) won his first and only Cup.
Good point, it was. Well, NOW Dionne is the best to never win (thank you Harry Sinden and co. for shipping him to a team that wanted to win).

Big Phil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-21-2007, 04:25 AM
  #6
VanIslander
Don't waste my time
 
VanIslander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 23,444
vCash: 500
Brett Hull was as high as 64th in 1997... dang! ... he's done A LOT since, especially in postseason play... can you say rocket man up the ranking

Yzerman on one leg in 2002 put him in the stratosphere ahead of the likes of Dionne in my book! (between Trottier and Moore I'd say, at the VERY least)

Hasek passed Tony Esposito for sure.

VanIslander is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
05-21-2007, 06:25 AM
  #7
EagleBelfour
Registered User
 
EagleBelfour's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,416
vCash: 500
I'll take the first stab:

1- Wayne Gretzky
2- Bobby Orr
3- Gordie Howe
4- Mario Lemieux
5- Maurice Richard
6- Doug Harney
7- Jean Béliveau
8- Bobby Hull
9- Terry Sawchuk
10- Eddie Shore
11- Guy Lafleur
12- Jacques Plante
13- Raymond Bourque
14- Mark Messier
15- Howie Morenz
16- Patrick Roy
17- Glenn Hall
18- Stan Mikita
19- Dominik Hasek
20- Phil Esposito
21- Denis Potvin
22- Mike Bossy
23- Ted Lindsay
24- Red Kelly
25- Bobby Clarke
26- Jaromir Jagr
27- Larry Robinson
28- Martin Brodeur
29- Ken Dryden
30- Frank Mahovlich
31- Milt Schmidt
32- Steve Yzerman
33- Paul Coffey
34- Henri Richard
35- Bryan Trottier
36- Dickie Moore
37- Newsy Lalonde
38- Syl Apps Sr.
39- Joe Sakic
40- Chris Chelios
41- Bill Durnan
42- Charlie Conacher
43- Niklas Lidstrom
44- Marcel Dionne
45- Joe Malone
46- Dit Clapper
47- Bernard Geoffrion
48- Tim Horton
49- Bill Cook
50- Brett Hull
51- Johnny Bucyk
52- George Hainsworth
53- Gilbert Perreault
54- Max Bentley
55- Brad Park
56- Jari Kurri
57- Scott Stevens
58- Nels Stewart
59- King Clancy
60- Bill Cowley
61- Busher Jackson
62- Peter Stastny
63- Ted Kennedy
64- Andy Bathgate
65- Pierre Pilote
66- Turk Broda
67- Frank Boucher
68- Cy Dennedy
69- Bernard Parent
70- Aurel Joliat
71- Toe Blake
72- Brian Leetch
73- Frank Brismek
74- Elmer Lach
75- Dave Keon
76- Peter Forsberg
77- Grant Fuhr
78- Earl Seibert
79- Doug Bentley
80- Borje Salming
81- George Vezina
82- Chuck Gardiner
83- Clint Benedict
84- Tony Esposito
85- Billy Smith
86- Serge Savard
87- Alex Delvecchio
88- Cecil Dye
89- Lorne Chabot
90- Sid Abel
91- Bob Gainey
92- Johnny Bower
93- Sprague Cleghorn
94- Al MacInnis
95- Mark Gartner
96- Norm Ullman
97- Sweeney Schriner
98- Joe Primeau
99- Ron Francis
100- Darryl Sittler

It's not an easy task. At all.

Mark Messier (from 12 to 14): The 7 years that followed 1997, he never qualified to the post-season. The whole Vancouver saga also played a factor. Still remain one of the all time great.

Patrick Roy (from 35 to 16): From 1997 to the end of his career, Roy won another Stanley Cup and another Conn Smythe. He produced 6 season of 30+ victories while beating Terry Sawchuk wins record.

Jaromir Jagr (from 37 to 26): 1 Hart, 3 Art-Ross. He proved he could be the league best without the help of Mario Lemieux. However, while having some good post-season, he never was able to carry a team on his back to the Stanley Cup finals.

Martin Brodeur (outside top-100 to 28): A model of longevity, Brodeur 3 SC, 1 Conn Smythe and awesome 9 seasons with over 38 wins earned him a place just outside the top-25. Another SC befroe his career end isn't out of question.

Steve Yzerman (from 78 to 32): One of Detroit greatess athlete. One of the best captain of all-time, who provide the complete offensive package. The Stanley Cup and Conn Smythe he won in 1998 and his steady play through his last 8 years propel him as the fourth best Red wings of all-time

Joe Sakic (from 94 to 39): 1PPG+ since 1997, he won another Stanley Cup and a Conn Smythe with the Colorado Avalanches. A performer all years, he's still an awesome force even at 38 years old.

Niklas Lidstrom (Outside the top-100 to 43): A mix of effectiveness and steadyness, Lidstrom will remain the best defenseman of the 2000's decade. 3 Stanley Cup, 3 James Norris in a row (He's nominated years after years) and a Conn Smythe. He's still one of the best at 37 years of age.

Brett Hull (from 64 to 50): The Golden Brett kept an average of 30 goals per year (from 97) until his retirement. He was also one of Dallas best in the 1999 and 2000 post season games. He was Dallas MVP in 2000. He won the cup twice.

Scott Stevens (Outside top-100 to 57): One of the toughess and best body checker of all-time, he still put great numbers for a tough defenseman. 3 Stanley Cups and a Conn Smythe, he's also a great captain.

Brian Leetch (from 71 to 72): Move down only because of some entries, although he missed playoffs 8 of his last 9 years in the NHL.

Peter Forsberg (Outside top-100 to 76): One of the most dominant player of this era when heathy, Peter Forsberg won 2 Cups along a Hart and an Art Ross. A playoff performer.

Al MacInnis (Outside top-100 to 94): 1Cup, 1 Conn Smythe and a Vezina, he will be forever remembered for his booming point shot and his power play prowess. A formidable defenseman with a great longevity.

Ron Francis (Outside top-100 to 99): Francis quietly establish an awesome career in the NHL. 549 goals, 1798 points. His two Stanley Cup, 3 Lady Bings and Frank J.Selke along his great playoff performance just get him a place on the top-100.

Eric Lindros (From 54 to outside the top-100): In my opinion, he was already to high on the chart. 5 season dosn't give you a better career than Stastny, Bathgate or Joliat. After another two good season with the Flyers (1998 and 1999), injuries take away what could of been an awesome career. From 1999 to 2006, he passed from one of the league best to a 3rd liner. moreover, with Dallas this year, it was the first time he was going into the playoff since 1998.


phew... lot of work

EagleBelfour is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-21-2007, 09:50 AM
  #8
Lowetide
Registered User
 
Lowetide's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Country: Canada
Posts: 13,280
vCash: 500
Orr should be #1, followed by Howe and then Lemieux. 99 was an amazing player but indifferent without the puck.

Also, Hasek is too low. It's about time we begin to discuss by how much he is the best goalie of all time, I don't think we can really argue for another.

Lowetide is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-21-2007, 09:54 AM
  #9
MXD
Registered User
 
MXD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Hôlle
Posts: 28,479
vCash: 500
I wouldn't dare to put Gartner ahead of Noisy... Can we move Gartner?

MXD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-21-2007, 09:57 AM
  #10
MXD
Registered User
 
MXD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Hôlle
Posts: 28,479
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lowetide View Post
Orr should be #1, followed by Howe and then Lemieux. 99 was an amazing player but indifferent without the puck.

Also, Hasek is too low. It's about time we begin to discuss by how much he is the best goalie of all time, I don't think we can really argue for another.
Roy and Plante ahead of him...
Very close to Hall, ahead of Sawchuck and Brodeur in my books.
But in this list, Sawchuck is ahead of Roy. Hasek is about where he should be. (by the list of EagleBelfour)

MXD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-21-2007, 09:57 AM
  #11
EagleBelfour
Registered User
 
EagleBelfour's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,416
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lowetide View Post
Orr should be #1, followed by Howe and then Lemieux. 99 was an amazing player but indifferent without the puck.

Also, Hasek is too low. It's about time we begin to discuss by how much he is the best goalie of all time, I don't think we can really argue for another.
You havn't read the thread just like it's written in big characters havn't you?

EagleBelfour is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-21-2007, 12:29 PM
  #12
ilovehockey
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 171
vCash: 500
I remember when this magazine came out for the hockey news. If I recall Gretzky and Orr had the same amount of 1st place votes, but Gretzky had more 2nd.

ilovehockey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-21-2007, 01:08 PM
  #13
God Bless Canada
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Bentley reunion
Country: Canada
Posts: 11,790
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ilovehockey View Post
I remember when this magazine came out for the hockey news. If I recall Gretzky and Orr had the same amount of 1st place votes, but Gretzky had more 2nd.
It was really close for the top three spots between Gretzky, Orr and Howe. And you can understand why. Do you go with the ultimate combination of all-round peak performance and longevity (Howe), the guy who set every record in the book (Gretzky) or the guy who played the game at a higher level than ever seen before, all be it for an abreviated period (Orr)?

It's interesting just how much flux this list would have gone through if voting would have taken place just two years later. Yzerman captained two Cup teams, winning the Conn Smythe in 1998. Steve Dryden admitted that if voting took place after 1998, Yzerman would have finished in the top 50. In the two years after the voting took place, Hasek won the Pearson, Hart and Vezina twice, and captured an Olympic gold medal. After 1997-98, there were already whispers among those in the know that he was the best ever.

Interesting to note that with Jagr, Leetch and Lindros, Dryden said their status was more reflective of what they would do in the future than what they had already accomplished. Jagr will be higher in the next list, although not as high as some would believe. Leetch will definitely drop, but not likely out of the top 100. Lindros will be nowhere to be found in the next top 100.

THN has said they'll do a top 75 for the 75th anniversary in 2023. (This project did start as a top 50. The top 100 was released later). Hard to say what that list will look like. But guys from the initial top 100 who will move into the top 50 are Yzerman, Sakic and Hasek. I would say that Brodeur, Forsberg and Lidstrom will be in the top 50, too. I would guess that MacInnis, Pronger and Stevens would be in the top 100, and that Francis and Fedorov would be top 100 candidates, too. I think it's still too early to tell for guys like Iginla, Thornton, Lecavalier, Ovechkin, Crosby et al.

God Bless Canada is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-21-2007, 01:08 PM
  #14
Kyle McMahon
Registered User
 
Kyle McMahon's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Evil Empire
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,519
vCash: 500
The one problem with trying to slot the active guys in without moving retired players is this:

I was trying to figure out where I'd place Joe Sakic. I was scanning the list and came across Trottier, and figured to myself that they're both pretty close, so I'd probably have Sakic right near Trottier, a couple below him or one above him or something like that. But I also saw Henri Richard and thought to myself that it's a no-brainer that Sakic was better than him. The problem: H. Richard is inexplicably (to me anyway) rated higher than Trottier. So where do I put Sakic?

Kyle McMahon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-21-2007, 01:16 PM
  #15
Wetcoaster
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Out There
Posts: 54,870
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle McMahon View Post
The one problem with trying to slot the active guys in without moving retired players is this:

I was trying to figure out where I'd place Joe Sakic. I was scanning the list and came across Trottier, and figured to myself that they're both pretty close, so I'd probably have Sakic right near Trottier, a couple below him or one above him or something like that. But I also saw Henri Richard and thought to myself that it's a no-brainer that Sakic was better than him. The problem: H. Richard is inexplicably (to me anyway) rated higher than Trottier. So where do I put Sakic?
Call it the "Habs push". It seems to me that many of the Montreal players are slotted higher by being from Montreal - likely due to the Stanley Cup successes.
And Dominik Hasek at #95?????????

Wetcoaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-21-2007, 01:30 PM
  #16
EagleBelfour
Registered User
 
EagleBelfour's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,416
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle McMahon View Post
The one problem with trying to slot the active guys in without moving retired players is this:

I was trying to figure out where I'd place Joe Sakic. I was scanning the list and came across Trottier, and figured to myself that they're both pretty close, so I'd probably have Sakic right near Trottier, a couple below him or one above him or something like that. But I also saw Henri Richard and thought to myself that it's a no-brainer that Sakic was better than him. The problem: H. Richard is inexplicably (to me anyway) rated higher than Trottier. So where do I put Sakic?
this is definitely the toughess thing to do. I think the best way to go around the problem is looking for three or four players that you think is about equal to the player, average their position and voilà! It's the only solution I find to moves some players without changing the entire list.

EagleBelfour is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-21-2007, 01:33 PM
  #17
Lowetide
Registered User
 
Lowetide's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Country: Canada
Posts: 13,280
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by EagleBelfour View Post
You havn't read the thread just like it's written in big characters havn't you?
Yes I did, but if we're going to make a list that reflects reality then we need to agree on the player at #1. I assume my Hasek comments fit in with your thread requirements.

Lowetide is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-21-2007, 01:35 PM
  #18
EagleBelfour
Registered User
 
EagleBelfour's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,416
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wetcoaster View Post
Call it the "Habs push". It seems to me that many of the Montreal players are slotted higher by being from Montreal - likely due to the Stanley Cup successes.
And Dominik Hasek at #95?????????
Remember the list was made in 1997. You would of know it if you would of read the thread as stepulate in the title .

As for the Pocket Rocket, he's one of my favourite player. A magnificiant 2-way player, a tremendous leader with a head over his shoulder. A hard working player and a winner. However, I would rank him between 40 and 45 all-time.

EagleBelfour is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-21-2007, 01:36 PM
  #19
MXD
Registered User
 
MXD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Hôlle
Posts: 28,479
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wetcoaster View Post
Call it the "Habs push". It seems to me that many of the Montreal players are slotted higher by being from Montreal - likely due to the Stanley Cup successes.
And Dominik Hasek at #95?????????
The list was made in 97 or something like that. Hasek had only 6 seasons (or so... full ones) by then. I think #95 was extremely high for 1997... However, anything revolving around 15-25 would make sense as of today.

MXD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-21-2007, 01:37 PM
  #20
EagleBelfour
Registered User
 
EagleBelfour's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,416
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lowetide View Post
I assume my Hasek comments fit in with your thread requirements.
I thought you were commenting the original list. If you were commenting my list ... Your comment fit the requirement. However, if you're not happy with my list, do yours!

EagleBelfour is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-21-2007, 01:56 PM
  #21
Wetcoaster
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Out There
Posts: 54,870
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lowetide View Post
Yes I did, but if we're going to make a list that reflects reality then we need to agree on the player at #1. I assume my Hasek comments fit in with your thread requirements.
The most logical way to compare goalies pre-Jennings (old Vezina crieria) is to look at all-star selections (equate first team to today's Vezina) and then post-Jennings compare those with Vezinas.

There is no way you cannot argue for Hasek not to be in Sawchuk/Plante/Hall territory in my humble opinion.

Sawchuk had 3 first team selections, no Harts.

Plante had three first team selections and a Hart.

Glenn Hall had SEVEN first team all-star selections, no Harts

Dominik Hasek had SIX Vezinas (and six first team selections matching the Vezinas) and two Harts (also two Pearsons for the same years).

Roy has three Vezina's (and four first team selections), no Harts

Martin Brodeur currently has two Vezina's (and two first team selections), no Harts ending this coming year's nominations.

Ken Dryden had five first team selections in an 8 year NHL career (short first year).

There is no way that Hasek can possibly be at #95. YMMV.

Wetcoaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-21-2007, 02:10 PM
  #22
God Bless Canada
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Bentley reunion
Country: Canada
Posts: 11,790
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wetcoaster View Post
The most logical way to compare goalies pre-Jennings (old Vezina crieria) is to look at all-star selections (equate first team to today's Vezina) and then post-Jennings compare those with Vezinas.

There is no way you cannot argue for Hasek not to be in Sawchuk/Plante/Hall territory in my humble opinion.

Sawchuk had 3 first team selections, no Harts.

Plante had three first team selections and a Hart.

Glenn Hall had SEVEN first team all-star selections, no Harts

Dominik Hasek had SIX Vezinas (and six first team selections matching the Vezinas) and two Harts (also two Pearsons for the same years).

Roy has three Vezina's (and four first team selections), no Harts

Martin Brodeur currently has two Vezina's (and two first team selections), no Harts ending this coming year's nominations.

Ken Dryden had five first team selections in an 8 year NHL career (short first year).

There is no way that Hasek can possibly be at #95. YMMV.
The voting actually took place after the 1995-96 season. A guy like Joe Sakic finished much higher in the voting than he would have if the voting took place one or two years prior.

At that point in time, Hasek essentially had three full seasons under his belt.

As I said earlier, had the voting taken place after the 1997-98 season (when there were already whispers that Hasek was the best ever), Hasek would have likely been in the 26-50 range, ahead of George Hainsworth and possibly Bill Durnan.

God Bless Canada is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-21-2007, 02:15 PM
  #23
NOTENOUGHBREWER
Registered User
 
NOTENOUGHBREWER's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 9,227
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wetcoaster View Post
The most logical way to compare goalies pre-Jennings (old Vezina crieria) is to look at all-star selections (equate first team to today's Vezina) and then post-Jennings compare those with Vezinas.

There is no way you cannot argue for Hasek not to be in Sawchuk/Plante/Hall territory in my humble opinion.

Sawchuk had 3 first team selections, no Harts.

Plante had three first team selections and a Hart.

Glenn Hall had SEVEN first team all-star selections, no Harts

Dominik Hasek had SIX Vezinas (and six first team selections matching the Vezinas) and two Harts (also two Pearsons for the same years).

Roy has three Vezina's (and four first team selections), no Harts

Martin Brodeur currently has two Vezina's (and two first team selections), no Harts ending this coming year's nominations.

Ken Dryden had five first team selections in an 8 year NHL career (short first year).

There is no way that Hasek can possibly be at #95. YMMV.
At the time he had like 3 Vezinas, no Harts, no gold medal, no Cups. #95 seems a bit high IMO.

NOTENOUGHBREWER is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-21-2007, 02:17 PM
  #24
EagleBelfour
Registered User
 
EagleBelfour's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,416
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wetcoaster View Post
There is no way that Hasek can possibly be at #95.
READ THE FIRST POST!!! THE FIRST LIST WAS MADE IN 1997!!!!!!

Damn....

Now that my frustration is gone, I don't think the all-star selection is the ultimate statistics to compares goaltenders. NO statistics can be the ultimate factor in evaluating a goaltender. You've got to watch him numerous time or read about them and about those who saw them play.

At the time, if I recall correctly, the all-star selection was selected by a small number of journalists. A bunch of opinions isn't enough for me to be considerate the ultimate statistic. Moreover, I think it is well known that players who stand on their head years after years get more recognition than players who play great, but steady and without waves. I feel that Jacques Plante or Terry Sawchuk would of received about the same numbers of selection if they would of played with the Chicago Blackhawks. Come playoff time though, I can say without any doubt that Plante, Sawchuk and Roy were superior goaltenders to Hall. Roy has 3 Conn Smythe, Sawchuk 2 Conn Smythe, Plante and Hall 1 CS. However, especially for Plante, the roles he played on his 6 Stanley Cup was very important and underrated by some. Glenn Hall wouldn't of been able to play at the level he played (he would have won a couple of Cups for sure though)

EagleBelfour is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-21-2007, 02:42 PM
  #25
reckoning
Registered User
 
reckoning's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,839
vCash: 500
I don't like the idea of dropping players if they had sup-par years after `97. Should the final years of Messier's career really diminish what he did before before that? Once you've accomplished something, it's there forever. You can add to your career, but you can't take away from it. Would simply retiring in `97 have somehow made him a better player?

An exception would be for Lindros simply because he was rated at that time based on where everyone thought his career was heading at the time instead of what he had done. He was arguably the best player at the time, but still only in his 5th season.

reckoning is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:07 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2016, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2016 All Rights Reserved.