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Question about even-ups...

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Old
12-23-2003, 12:25 PM
  #1
ehc73
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Question about even-ups...

Note: This isn't a gripe thread about all the clutching/grabbing/obstruction going on, that's an argument for another thread.

For those of you that know a lot about refs and/or are refs: Say two teams are playing, we'll call them A and B. Team A gets two or three penalties in a row called against them, due to their own fault or otherwise. I've noticed that after that, Team A pretty much gets away with anything unless it's blatant disregard for the rules(ie a high stick, cross check to the face, hitting from behind into the boards etc) until Team B does something to warrant a penalty. Most of the time it's a few holds, hooks and whatnot that _should_ be called but aren't, and sometimes it's ridiculous like outright tackles. I figure it's because the refs want to keep things even. Is that what really happens, or is it just a coincidence in the games I watch?

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12-23-2003, 12:52 PM
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No, you can watch games where teams like the Wild, Canes etc are allowed to do what they want to superior teams. Yet the other team seems to be called for anything just to make the penalties even. The same can be said for teams who are SH, they can do what they want but the PP team will get called for anything anywhere near borderline.

I dont care if a team has 9 PPs to 1 if its deserved but look at last nights games.

Boston - NYR = 6 minors each
Dallas - Carolina = 3 minors to Car, 2 to Dal
Pit - Mon = 3 minors to Mon, 4 (+ 1 bench for language) to Pit
Fla - Ott = 4 minors each
St L - Det = 4 minors St L, 5 to Det
Nsh - Pho = 9 minors each (+ 1 bench to Nsh)
LA - Van = 5 LA, 4 Van
Ana -SJ = 6 to Ana, 7 to SJ

If thats not a case of evening it up I dont know what is.

The refs think they dont want to decide games by calling to many penalties to one side, but are doing the exact opposite by letting them do what they want.

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12-23-2003, 01:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ehc73
For those of you that know a lot about refs and/or are refs: Say two teams are playing, we'll call them A and B. Team A gets two or three penalties in a row called against them, due to their own fault or otherwise. I've noticed that after that, Team A pretty much gets away with anything unless it's blatant disregard for the rules(ie a high stick, cross check to the face, hitting from behind into the boards etc) until Team B does something to warrant a penalty. Most of the time it's a few holds, hooks and whatnot that _should_ be called but aren't, and sometimes it's ridiculous like outright tackles. I figure it's because the refs want to keep things even. Is that what really happens, or is it just a coincidence in the games I watch?
I think it's mostly coincidence. We don't notice the times when the same team gets another penalty to extend their streak. Or if we do, it's just to complain about "how bad the reffing is tonight, that's 2, 3,4 in a row" or whatever.

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12-23-2003, 05:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ehc73
... Is that what really happens, or is it just a coincidence in the games I watch?
Might want to talk to those complaining here about the Blue Jackets game the other day. Ton of calls against them in the game, few for the opponent. Fans, of course, were suggesting that calls should have been more proportionately distributed between the two teams.

So, to answer your question above, fans of Team B would agree with you totally, fans of Team A would say you're absolutely wrong. :p

Isles had a questionable call made against them in third period tonight. Flyers scored on the PP to tie it up. (They subsequently went ahead 2-1, before NYI stormed back to win 3-2.) One could bemoan the call. I bemoaned my team's inability to overcome a bad break and kill the penalty. The really good teams overcome obstacles like bad calls regularly. The rest don't.

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12-23-2003, 06:10 PM
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I won't say make-up calls don't happen, because I've done it myself. What I will say, is that any make-up call is not done by a referee to keep the number of penalties on the scoresheet even. Make-up calls are used by some referees (key word: some) after they realize they just made a weak call.

Is it right to correct a weak call with another? Not exactly....but it does help prevent the referee from helping decide the game because he kept the on-ice strength even.

To make it short....

Make-up calls to make the scoresheet even: No.
Make-up calls to keep the on-ice strength even when the referee knows he's **** up: Occasionally.

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Old
12-23-2003, 06:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve L

Boston - NYR = 6 minors each
Dallas - Carolina = 3 minors to Car, 2 to Dal
Pit - Mon = 3 minors to Mon, 4 (+ 1 bench for language) to Pit
Fla - Ott = 4 minors each
St L - Det = 4 minors St L, 5 to Det
Nsh - Pho = 9 minors each (+ 1 bench to Nsh)
LA - Van = 5 LA, 4 Van
Ana -SJ = 6 to Ana, 7 to SJ

If thats not a case of evening it up I dont know what is.
And I suppose you watched each game, and are an educated official, right?

It is possible for teams to play even games as far as what they deserve for penalties.

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12-23-2003, 06:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Van
I won't say make-up calls don't happen, because I've done it myself. What I will say, is that any make-up call is not done by a referee to keep the number of penalties on the scoresheet even. Make-up calls are used by some referees (key word: some) after they realize they just made a weak call.

Is it right to correct a weak call with another? Not exactly....but it does help prevent the referee from helping decide the game because he kept the on-ice strength even.

To make it short....

Make-up calls to make the scoresheet even: No.
Make-up calls to keep the on-ice strength even when the referee knows he's **** up: Occasionally.


I can almost understand that in juniors or whatnot. But in the NHL you have two refs and they do not consult each other about questionable calls. Like the Wings/Blues game last night. The refs 50 feet away called Hull for interference, where as the ref 10 feet away didn't make the call. Even Blues fans said on this board it was a bs call and if anything their player should have got the penalty for HTS. The NFL has come along way with the refs talking with each other about certain penalties to make sure it was the right call. Why cant NHL refs?

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12-23-2003, 06:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JWI19
But in the NHL you have two refs and they do not consult each other about questionable calls.
They don't discuss calls because if they did, the conversation would go as such...

Referee calling penalty: "What did you think of the play?"
Referee not calling penalty: "I didn't see much of anything, but if you did, then make the call."

Not much point to discuss minor infractions.


Also, in football, the book is written so they can discuss and decline a penalty if they see fit. In hockey, once that arm goes in the air, the referee has to call a penalty.

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12-23-2003, 07:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve L
No, you can watch games where teams like the Wild, ...
There's a reason the Wild are one of the least penalized teams in the league, and it's not because there's some grand conspiracy amongst the referees.

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12-23-2003, 07:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Van
Also, in football, the book is written so they can discuss and decline a penalty if they see fit. In hockey, once that arm goes in the air, the referee has to call a penalty.
Maybe that rule has to go. In the words of our parents. Two wrongs dont make a right. And thats what the refs are doing with make up calls.

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12-23-2003, 07:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JWI19
Maybe that rule has to go. In the words of our parents. Two wrongs dont make a right. And thats what the refs are doing with make up calls.
In the case of make-up calls, the two wrongs do make a right because no team has an advantage given to them unfairly because the on-ice strength is even for the most part...each team would get a shortened powerplay. In this case, the referee just saved himself from possibly having the game decided on his mistake.

Besides that point...even if hockey referees could discuss and decline penalties, it would happen maybe once a week, if that. The conversations would go as I described above.

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12-23-2003, 07:23 PM
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Er, in football, the penalty isn't assessed until play is stopped. Then if the penalty isn't correct, they take the play as if the penalty flag wasn't thrown. You can't do that in hockey. There's no start stop start stop of football; it flows.

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12-24-2003, 04:58 AM
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Classic example of a make up call and imcompetance lst night.

The Flyers have had the only PP of the game. Weinrich gets his stick up near Kvashas head, no call, the play goes on, no call, 5 or 6 seconds later Kvasha takes off his glove and feels his mouth, up goes the officials arms.

NYI score on the game because the official did not see a penalty yet decided to call it. A classic example of an official deciding the game.

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12-24-2003, 05:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Van
And I suppose you watched each game, and are an educated official, right?

It is possible for teams to play even games as far as what they deserve for penalties.
I dont watch each game but I see it time and time again to know that it goes on. It is possible but hardly likely to happen in 90+% of games now, is it?

NHL officials are the worst in any sport.

Penalties depend on who commits them. (Brashear will get called for something while Sakic will get away with the exact same thing)
Penalties depend on the time left in the game. (refs will not call a penalty in the 3rd or OT that they would have called in the 1st.)
Penalties depend on the time of the season. (refs will not call a pen in the playoffs that they would have called in the regular season)
Penalties depend on if its the road or home team. (most borderline calls go to the home team)
Penalties depend on the score. (refs are more likely to give the trailing team a PP)

I dont care if an official misses a call, they are all human. But until the above is changed, they will remain a constant source of frustration to players, coaches and fans alike.

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12-24-2003, 10:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve L
NYI score on the game because the official did not see a penalty yet decided to call it.
OK...so you know exactly what the official saw and what he was thinking at the time?

I don't think so.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve L
I dont watch each game
After you said this, the rest of your post became meaningless.

Besides, all you said about what determines penalties is so off-base it isn't funny.

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12-24-2003, 10:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Van
I won't say make-up calls don't happen, because I've done it myself. What I will say, is that any make-up call is not done by a referee to keep the number of penalties on the scoresheet even. Make-up calls are used by some referees (key word: some) after they realize they just made a weak call.

Is it right to correct a weak call with another? Not exactly....but it does help prevent the referee from helping decide the game because he kept the on-ice strength even.

To make it short....

Make-up calls to make the scoresheet even: No.
Make-up calls to keep the on-ice strength even when the referee knows he's **** up: Occasionally.
this is what i've always used as my reference towards make up calls, nothing to do with having 9 penalties vs 9 penalties...

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12-24-2003, 10:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve L
Penalties depend on if its the road or home team. (most borderline calls go to the home team)

Penalties depend on the score. (refs are more likely to give the trailing team a PP)
that first one i don't know, i watch a lot of hockey whenever i can, and that one doesn't stand out to me as being true.

the second one is very iffy, and a very broad claim IMO

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12-25-2003, 03:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Van
OK...so you know exactly what the official saw and what he was thinking at the time?
Yes, he didnt see the penalty or his hand would have gone up, when he saw the player put his hand to his face he thought, gee, I wonder if that was a high stick.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Van
After you said this, the rest of your post became meaningless.
In other words, you couldnt counter my claims so you ignored them.

Do you watch each and every single game? If not, your opinion is just as invalid as mine.

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12-25-2003, 03:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve L
Classic example of a make up call and imcompetance lst night.

The Flyers have had the only PP of the game. Weinrich gets his stick up near Kvashas head, no call, the play goes on, no call, 5 or 6 seconds later Kvasha takes off his glove and feels his mouth, up goes the officials arms.

NYI score on the game because the official did not see a penalty yet decided to call it. A classic example of an official deciding the game.
And if he didn't call it, NYI fans would have complained that refs swallow their whistles late in games. It's all a matter of perspective.

Was the Bates penalty on which the "makeup" was made a good call? It led to a PP goal, and a lot of observers would suggest it was a horrible call.

Not picking a fight, just pointing out the subjectivity involved in dissecting each and every call. It's an exercise in futility. Just as the Isles didn't meet the challenge of a questionable call on Bates, neither did the Flyers on the Weinrich call. Officials decided it? Nah, that's an excuse, just like it would have been excuse if NYI had lost because of the Philly PP goal to make it 2-1.


Last edited by Trottier: 12-25-2003 at 03:34 PM.
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12-25-2003, 07:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve L
Yes, he didnt see the penalty or his hand would have gone up, when he saw the player put his hand to his face he thought, gee, I wonder if that was a high stick.
Explain to me how you know exactly what the referee what thinking...How can you prove that this is not simply what you think he was thinking?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve L
Do you watch each and every single game? If not, your opinion is just as invalid as mine.
How so? I never claimed I knew what the referee was thinking during the specific situation you described. Also, I am an official. I know the mentalities that a lot of these officials have. Judging by your claim of this specific situation, all you have is a fan's mentality...and you are claiming to have knowledge of a referee's specific thoughts in a specific situation?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trottier
And if he didn't call it, NYI fans would have complained that refs swallow their whistles late in games. It's all a matter of perspective.
Exactly. Fans of team's penalized in such situations think that the officials are out to get them. It is a lose-lose situation for officials with every call they make because somebody will disagree with their judgment. That is a fact of life in hockey.

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12-25-2003, 08:39 PM
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I'll say this about officiating. Yes, crap happens sometimes. Yes, the officials can't always see the blatant penalties. Its the inconsistency in today's NHL that kills me, though. Each official crew, runs the games differently. On top of that, it seems that even within the game, the crews can be very inefficient and inconsistent. Hockey has to be hard to ref. I completely understand that, but somewhere the line has to be drawn in the sand, and refs. have to be made accountable for some part of their actions. Personally, I don't think they are right now. If a call is missed, its their fault, regardless of the circumstances of why they didn't see the call. Its their job, and they have to do that job. I don't believe in makeup calls, and I do believe that refs. can have an unfair bias torwards some teams/players that leads to more "weak calls". I guess that is going to happen, though. After all, subjectivity is the way the rules are worded, and officials are only human.

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12-25-2003, 11:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Enoch
and refs. have to be made accountable for some part of their actions. Personally, I don't think they are right now.
If an official makes a mistake worth being held accountable for, he is held accountable for it. The only catch is that officials being held accountable is not public news.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Enoch
If a call is missed, its their fault, regardless of the circumstances of why they didn't see the call.
Absolutely not. This doesn't mean that referees' mistakes are not mistakes, but there are situations in which a referee or a linesman simply gets caught and there isn't a thing he can do about it.

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12-26-2003, 03:39 AM
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Van
Explain to me how you know exactly what the referee what thinking...How can you prove that this is not simply what you think he was thinking?
You explain to me why it took so long to make a call and he only did it when Kvasha put a hand to his mouth. Why would he only make the call several seconds later when he did that?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Van
How so? I never claimed I knew what the referee was thinking during the specific situation you described. Also, I am an official. I know the mentalities that a lot of these officials have. Judging by your claim of this specific situation, all you have is a fan's mentality...and you are claiming to have knowledge of a referee's specific thoughts in a specific situation?
You said my opinion doesnt count if I dont watch every game, then neither does yours or anyone elses. The arrongance is amazing, just because you are an official does not mean you know any more than other people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Van
Exactly. Fans of team's penalized in such situations think that the officials are out to get them. It is a lose-lose situation for officials with every call they make because somebody will disagree with their judgment. That is a fact of life in hockey.
Not just that, I and many other fans know when we get the benefit of calls. It should not happen, the officals are inept, they do not call the game as it should be and they are allowed to get away with it.

Call the game the way it should be and people will be happy. I like the way you ignored my point about calls being made differently at different times as well.

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12-26-2003, 04:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve L
You explain to me why it took so long to make a call and he only did it when Kvasha put a hand to his mouth. Why would he only make the call several seconds later when he did that?
I haven't commented on this particular situation because I did not see it. However, your attempts at being psychic and telling us what was going through the referee's mind is outrageous....especially if you have no experience as an official.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve L
just because you are an official does not mean you know any more than other people.
On the topic of officiating, yes it does. It is just like an accountant knows more about accounting than someone who doesn't do the job.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve L
Call the game the way it should be and people will be happy. I like the way you ignored my point about calls being made differently at different times as well.
I ignored that because I have explained Game Management way too many times over the last week or so to make it worth explaining again.

And the fans will never be happy with the officiating. There has never been a time when they were, and there never will be.


Last edited by BCCHL inactive: 12-26-2003 at 04:56 AM.
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12-26-2003, 06:28 AM
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Van
They don't discuss calls because if they did, the conversation would go as such...

Referee calling penalty: "What did you think of the play?"
Referee not calling penalty: "I didn't see much of anything, but if you did, then make the call."

Not much point to discuss minor infractions.
The egos of refferees is not an excuse for not changing the system to something that isn't the pure crap that we have now. NFL refs have found a way to discuss what they saw and to come out with the right call and there is absolutely no reason why NHL officials can't do the same thing.

Taking the example that JWI19 used.... I guarantee you that at least one of the other three officials saw Steve Martins grabbing onto Brett Hull's stick yet that knowledge is completely ignored in the current system.


Last edited by dragonwyck: 12-26-2003 at 06:31 AM.
 
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