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USHL vs QMJHL

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Old
06-07-2007, 10:58 PM
  #26
LaLaLaprise
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Originally Posted by MikeC44 View Post
My question is this: I'm positive there's an NCAA rule regarding players wanting to keep their NCAA eligibilty that says they can't play any exhibition games while attending a training camp of a CHL team (on top of the 48hrs rule), so how do these exhibition games not violate this rule?
Easy, its the same reason why the NCAA considers the CHL a "pro" league and the USHL and NAHL not.

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06-08-2007, 06:44 AM
  #27
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possibly

interesting discussion. How will the result(s) impact future decision making? Seems to me that the "U" can use a respectable performance to add to it's position as an alternative to Major Junior ( w/o the loss of NCAA eligibility) While it would seem that the "Q" would only benefit if they were to dominate the games. With the top Canadian born players apparently using the NCAA option as leverage success by "U" teams might only provide more fuel for this leverage.

It would seem to me the "Q" needs to market itself better in the US if it wants to overcome the impact of the loss of NCAA eligibility to Amercan players. Remember the average American kid grows up with the dream to play D-1 college hockey and in hotbeds of hockey like Mass playing college hockey at a local D-1 school is enough to make you a "Hometown Hero" for life. LOL

Different cultures, Different dreams.

Just my observation, (and opinion, everyone has one)

F1

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06-08-2007, 02:32 PM
  #28
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Easy, its the same reason why the NCAA considers the CHL a "pro" league and the USHL and NAHL not.
Well obviously, La-la, I meant is there any reason other than "just because".

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06-08-2007, 05:52 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by MikeC44 View Post
Well obviously, La-la, I meant is there any reason other than "just because".


Likely not...its the NCAA...they set their own rules

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06-09-2007, 08:10 PM
  #30
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thats great news! A friend of mine plays for the Ice and Quebec city is only 2.5 hours away from my house! Al ot closer then driving to Indiana

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06-12-2007, 12:12 PM
  #31
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I figured there'd be a thread on this here after the recent news.

NCAA on major juniors players not being considered amateurs: They are paid to play in major juniors. It's not much, but it counts. Yes, I'm fully aware of all the ways Tier I and Tier II teams can get around this by using "allowances". But, the check isn't written out to Joe USHLer.

USHL vs. QMJHL: I would expect the QMJHL teams to win this, but it should be close. I hope both Omaha and Indiana have strong rosters next year. This might help those two teams convince a couple players on the fence about playing in the USHL to make that jump. I firmly support players playing juniors before going to college, from a hockey standpoint and an academic standpoint. Unless you're a stud coming out of high school or prep school like Erik Johnson and the like, you really should consider further developing your game in juniors first so that you can be an impact player in college from the get go.

NAHL vs. USHL: This was mentioned a bit earlier how the NAHL team did well when the USHL first became Tier 1. The criticism of the USHL was that in it's reformulation of the rosters with the requirements of certain players at certain ages was that it'd become a glorified midget league. Well, that hasn't happened (and I'm one of the ones who criticized the move when it first happened). The USHL has done a fabulous job of attracting top American talent. It's really very easy as to why the USHL can do this: the teams receive far more support in fan attendance and from the community than NAHL teams. The USHL teams can provide more amenities to their players. Many USHL teams play in fairly new facilities, too. What has happened in the USHL is that exceptionally talented 16- and 17-year-olds have come to play against those 18-, 19-, and 20-year-olds that are in the USHL. The overage players that remain are THE best overagers that have not already committed to a college (or are transferring and need to sit out a year!), because the USHL limits the number of them allowed. So, a lot of 19- and 20-year-olds that were once in the USHL that were not top players end up in the NAHL to close out their junior career.

The NAHL tends to be an older league than the USHL. The USHL has its role of developing high-end prospects and the NAHL has its role of helping its top younger guys move up to the USHL and then help the older players still earn a scholarship from an NCAA DI school. What I hope can happen is that the NAHL can expand so that the teams in their league don't have to spend as much on travel. They almost need an Alaskan or Northwest division now to keep that travel reasonable. Then, try and group Texas, Wichita Falls, Topeka, St. Louis, and Springfield together; Mahoning Valley, Alpena, Marquette, Traverse City, and the USNTDP together; and lastly Bismarck, North Iowa, Southern Minnesota, and Alexandria together (Fargo-Moorhead will be receiving a USHL team again in 2008-09). It would be great if the NAHL could secure one more team in Minnesota or the Dakotas, and then two more teams in the Pacific Northwest to join Fairbanks, Alaska, and Kenai River. I'm not certain if any teams currently in the Nor-Pac could move up to make that happen. In Minnesota, one might say that the Minnesota Ice Hawks of the Minnesota Junior Hockey League would be a great team to join the NAHL because the Ice Hawks are in Rochester and have firmly established themselves as one of the the top Junior B teams in the nation. However, don't expect that to happen. Would the Ice Hawks receive much more fan support and community support to would offset the added budget concerns that joining the NAHL would have for the Ice Hawks? Highly doubtful. Plus, in Junior B, the players pay to play. One might ask whether struggling Junior A teams shouldn't considering dropping down to Junior B.

Hopefully the NAHL remains a viable league. Its teams do need more than the average 1000 fans per game that they see (and some teams really skew the average high).

USA Hockey in general needs to educate players and parents how helpful Tier II Junior A and then also Junior B hockey can be for developing players. It's a great way for players to physically and mentally mature before going to college. It's really very helpful for players to take those 9 to 11 credit hours while they're also playing junior hockey, because it'll allow players to maintain a lower course load while playing college hockey. If a collegiate player can keep his course load as close to 12 credit hours as he can, all the better for his grades AND his hockey (assuming he has the work ethic to do that and stay on task).

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06-12-2007, 02:50 PM
  #32
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Interesting question: Do the USHL players lose their NCAA eligibility if they play teams in the CHL, or the Q specifically in September? My opinion is no; they will still retain their amateur status, but they must be careful. My son will play 18AAA next year and is going through the NCAA Clearinghouse right now, so I have done some research because he has been invited to and wants to attend a CHL camp this summer. The USHL teams cannot receive any monies or financial support to attend and play in these games above reasonable expenses. For example, the Remparts can provide the Collisee’ for free, or at their cost (reasonable expense), but Omaha and the Ice should pay their own way to the games, pay their own lodging and other expenses, and not participate in the gate. The key here is that the U teams are playing against a team deemed pro, not for a pro team. Case in point would be where the MLB San Diego Padres have played exhibition baseball games during the school year against the SDSU Aztecs (ie Feb, 2005, and only 7 years prior in 1998 when the Padres beat the Aztecs 4-2). The Aztec players retained their amateur status because they only played against a pro team, not for one.

The NCAA Clearinghouse has their academic requirements (save that for another topic of discussion), and their Amateurism questions. If a player answers “ yes” to any of these questions, then they are in jeopardy of losing their amateur status. These questions are:
1.In any sport, have you ever (other than your parents or coach) asked anyone to market your athletic skill or reputation?
2. In any sport, have you ever accepted any benefits from an agent (or other individual who has marketed any individual’s athletic skill)? If the answer is YES, the following information will be requested.
- name of individual or corporation
- benefits received, ie. Meals, lodging, money
- explanation of situation and benefits received.
3. Before ever attending classes full time at any college, have you ever:
Competed in an event and accepted prize money?
Competed in an event where any part of your expenses were paid by anyone other than your family, your team or the sponsor of the event?
Been paid to compete?
4. Have you agreed to compete on a professional sports team?
5. Competed on any team where anyone received more than their expenses to play on the team?
6. Had a professional sports team pay any of your expenses for a practice or tryout?
Answer Yes to any of these questions, and the Clearinghouse will look at it and give you one of three results. Certified, Certified with Conditions, or Not Certified.
The preliminary status is available to the prospect and institution via the clearinghouse website. The process is repeated when the prospect updates athletic participation.

The following explains that if you pay your own way, you can tryout for a pro team for an indefinite period. The 48-hour rule applies if the pro team is paying any expenses.
Tryouts With Professional Teams
It is permissible for a prospective student-athlete or a currently enrolled student-athlete to try out with a professional team, provided the following conditions are met:
1. Prior to collegiate enrollment: A student-athlete remains eligible in a sport even though, prior to enrollment in a collegiate institution, the student-athlete may have tried out with a professional athletics team in a sport or received not more than one expense-paid visit from each professional team (or a combine including that team), provided such a visit did not exceed 48 hours and any payment or compensation in connection with the visit was not in excess of actual and necessary expenses. A self-financed tryout may be for any length of time.
2. Tryout after collegiate enrollment: A student-athlete shall not try out with a professional athletics team in a sport or permit a professional athletics team to conduct medical examinations during any part of the academic year (i.e., from the beginning of the fall term through completion of the spring term, including any intervening vacation period) while enrolled in a collegiate institution as a regular student in at least a minimum full-time academic load, unless the student-athlete has exhausted eligibility in that sport. The student-athlete may try out with a professional organization in a sport during the summer or during the academic year while not a full-time student, provided the student-athlete does not receive any form of expenses or other compensation from the professional organization.
Please note that during a tryout, an individual may not take part in any outside competition (games or scrimmages) as a representative of that professional team.
Please contact the certifying institution or conference for additional information. You also may contact the NCAA membership services staff at 317/917-6222 should you have further questions.
In the NCAA “do’s and dont’s” they specifically reference Major Junior Hockey. They say” if you as an athlete participate on a major junior ice hockey team, you will be considered as having played on a professional team, and thus lose your eligibility for intercollegiate competition in ice hockey.”

Hope this helps anyone wanting to got to CHL camps this summer and still retain their NCAA amateur status. The keys are don’t get an agent, pay your own way, and don’t play a game for a deemed pro team against another pro team.

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06-16-2007, 10:24 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by derbyfan View Post
Wow, where did you hear that? There's nothing yet on any of the websites...
I have a tough time believing the Q would agree to that. Too much to lose.
Told ya so

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06-18-2007, 03:53 PM
  #34
derbyfan
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Told ya so
Geez, look what you started.
This should be fun though...

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07-22-2007, 07:46 AM
  #35
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Should be fun. Nick Larson and Nicco Saccetti of Omaha will hopefully look really good.

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07-22-2007, 11:14 AM
  #36
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Even without Fortier, Skokan, Tanguay, Gratchev, Frolik and probably some invites for the rookie camps of NHL teams, we'll eat USHL ass off ! Go Nics go !

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07-22-2007, 12:26 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by VanNistelrooy View Post
Even without Fortier, Skokan, Tanguay, Gratchev, Frolik and probably some invites for the rookie camps of NHL teams, we'll eat USHL ass off ! Go Nics go !
NHL camps don't usually open until Sep 13-15, so it's possible that all those guys could be in Rimouski's lineup.

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07-22-2007, 05:46 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by VanNistelrooy View Post
Even without Fortier, Skokan, Tanguay, Gratchev, Frolik and probably some invites for the rookie camps of NHL teams, we'll eat USHL ass off ! Go Nics go !
Classy!

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07-26-2007, 05:12 AM
  #39
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This is the best thing for american hockey. If the games are even remotly close it will look great for the USHL. Players will be able to wait on the NCAA abd know they are playing at a top level of hockey. If the USHL does well or even wins it might keep the next Peter Mueller from jumping to the CHL thinking he would have only played one year NCAA any way. But the USHL then would not look so bad.

If the loose bad. Then that just keeps them as a feeder league to the NCAA. As most any top or medium level NCAA team would eat up a USHL team.

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07-26-2007, 01:50 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by MN_Gopher View Post
This is the best thing for american hockey. If the games are even remotly close it will look great for the USHL. Players will be able to wait on the NCAA abd know they are playing at a top level of hockey. If the USHL does well or even wins it might keep the next Peter Mueller from jumping to the CHL thinking he would have only played one year NCAA any way. But the USHL then would not look so bad.

If the loose bad. Then that just keeps them as a feeder league to the NCAA. As most any top or medium level NCAA team would eat up a USHL team.
Honestly I don't see the outcome of these games affecting the decisions of the kids much at all no matter what happens. It's the summer - neither team will have their full rosters or be in particularly great shape - should be a good exhibition of some talented players.. nothing more.

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07-26-2007, 02:49 PM
  #41
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Honestly I don't see the outcome of these games affecting the decisions of the kids much at all no matter what happens. It's the summer - neither team will have their full rosters or be in particularly great shape - should be a good exhibition of some talented players.. nothing more.
I agree it probably won't have much effect on players' decisions, but I disagree that the teams (at least the QMJHL teams) won't have their full rosters.

These games take place Sep 7 & 8. They are the last 2 exhibition games for both Rimouski and Quebec (both teams play 8 ex. games) as the Q regular season begins Sep 13, so most of the dead weight should be cut by then.
Also, NHL camps don't open until around Sep 13-15 so both Q teams could have all their star players.

As for the USHL, I'm not too sure. Their regular season doesn't begin until Oct 6, but all the teams seem to have camps scheduled throught June, July, and Aug. But as the perceived 'lower level' league, and since they're the teams making the big trip, I would imagine they would like to bring as strong a team as possible.

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07-26-2007, 03:42 PM
  #42
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I agree it probably won't have much effect on players' decisions, but I disagree that the teams (at least the QMJHL teams) won't have their full rosters.
I'll take your word for it - I just know that if the knights played such a game - their roster would probably be missing a good 1/4 of their best players.

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07-27-2007, 02:17 AM
  #43
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Is not going to make or break anything. But it will help, and its another thing that shows USA hockey is at least worthy of an invite. 5 years ago, unless it was Vaneks team, the USHL would have got embaressed and probally their players hurt.

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07-28-2007, 09:43 AM
  #44
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derbyfan, I find it interesting that you are worried about the Q clubs and their possible performance against the USHL. Why would they schedule such a thing in September you ask...when their best players will be either at NHL rookie camps or playing for Canada in the Russia summit series?

Easy answer, because its a win win for the Q.

If Rimouski and Quebec both win or heck even split, many will say "Look those USHL clubs couldn't even beat a Q exhibition B team!.". If they lose even four straigt, the reply simply will be "yeah so they beat our rookies and walk on free agent try out players, big deal!"

In all actuality, its the USHL that has the most to lose.
I can't say this won't be a win for the Q regardless...but to say the USHL will lose more is wrong.

Sure a handful of key players may be missing from Q teams...but the Q teams will still have the core of their roster, will have had considerably more playing time together than the USHL teams and will be playing at home in Canada. They really should win these games.

Although just a blip regarding the big picture, a strong USHL showing will likely continue the trend toward more USHL/CHL comparisons and fewer NCAA/CHL comparisons.

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07-28-2007, 11:03 AM
  #45
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I can't say this won't be a win for the Q regardless...but to say the USHL will lose more is wrong.

Sure a handful of key players may be missing from Q teams...but the Q teams will still have the core of their roster, will have had considerably more playing time together than the USHL teams and will be playing at home in Canada. They really should win these games.

Although just a blip regarding the big picture, a strong USHL showing will likely continue the trend toward more USHL/CHL comparisons and fewer NCAA/CHL comparisons.
It really depends on what rosters the Q teams use. If the "handful of players missing" represent the top line and D pairings and the Q teams still win, the USHL will indeed have egg on their face.

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07-28-2007, 08:17 PM
  #46
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It really depends on what rosters the Q teams use. If the "handful of players missing" represent the top line and D pairings and the Q teams still win, the USHL will indeed have egg on their face.
So you're putting the USHL (full roster) as favorites over CHL teams (signifcantly more ice time, home rink). Has USA hockey really made those kind of gains?

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07-28-2007, 10:15 PM
  #47
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So you're putting the USHL (full roster) as favorites over CHL teams (signifcantly more ice time, home rink). Has USA hockey really made those kind of gains?
He is working on a pre-excuse i would guess.

Considering how many people here think the CHL>NCAA>USHL to say that the USHL is a favorite or even has a chance means that the there is something wrong with that logic. It would be like saying USHL>SHATTACKS>MNHS. If Duluth East played the Sioux Falls Stampede there is no reason even if the USHL team has players missing that they should not pound the hounds.

USHL players for the most part are not good enough to play NCAA. The USHL is built up of 5-6th line NCAA guys and 7-9 D men at their point in devolpment. Unless the CHL teams are missing their top 4 lines and top 6 d men there should be no excuses if they are a superior league to the NCAA.

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07-28-2007, 11:13 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by 5mn Major View Post
So you're putting the USHL (full roster) as favorites over CHL teams (signifcantly more ice time, home rink). Has USA hockey really made those kind of gains?
If the Q teams are missing their top players while the U teams have their full roster, don't you think that the USHL representatives should perform well???

If the Q teams do in fact have their full rosters, then yes, they should be able to easily beat the USHL teams.

Take some of the better prep teams and have them play a USHL team missing their top players. I certainly would not be surprised in the least if the prep teams did well.

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07-29-2007, 01:35 AM
  #49
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Originally Posted by VOB View Post
If the Q teams are missing their top players while the U teams have their full roster, don't you think that the USHL representatives should perform well???

If the Q teams do in fact have their full rosters, then yes, they should be able to easily beat the USHL teams.

Take some of the better prep teams and have them play a USHL team missing their top players. I certainly would not be surprised in the least if the prep teams did well.
The 16-17 year old talent in both leagues is probably somewhat similar. However, just about all the top 16-17 year olds in the USHL are in the NCAA by the time they're 18-19. The Q still has those players at 18-19. Rimouski could have 5 NHL picks in their lineup and Quebec 3. Will Omaha and Indiana have any?

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07-29-2007, 03:33 PM
  #50
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The 16-17 year old talent in both leagues is probably somewhat similar. However, just about all the top 16-17 year olds in the USHL are in the NCAA by the time they're 18-19. The Q still has those players at 18-19. Rimouski could have 5 NHL picks in their lineup and Quebec 3. Will Omaha and Indiana have any?
Nick Larson, Nicco Saccetti for Omaha for sure are both drafted. Barry Almeida is going to BC and should be good. Novak and White round a solid team for Omaha. White to NH in 09 and Novak to JBU in 08 is an 88 born.

Indiana will not have as many top players but Brett Bruneteau is a NoDak recruit and should be pretty good.

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