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Lessons learned from the Ducks Cup win

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Old
06-07-2007, 02:21 PM
  #26
CM Lundqvist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomLaidlaw View Post
I learned that if you get a guy with a Porn Moustache the Stanley Cup will follow.
Parros.

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06-07-2007, 02:28 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by alkurtz View Post
Each year after the Cup finals I try to ask myself just what lessons have been learned. There is an element of copycatting in all sports and this is true in the NHL. So what did we as fans, and perhaps Ranger management learn this year from the Ducks' victory?

One: in the end it is the team with the most talent that is likely to win
Two: physical play is still important and when physical play is mated with ability, you have a winning combination
Three: Elite defensemen are the most valuable commodity in sport and when you have more than one on a team, you have an edge over most over teams
Four: having a talented, defense oriented, shut down checking line, wins in the playoffs
Five: the best team is often the one with the right combination of youth and experience
1. Not true. The 03 Devils weren't the most talented team, and they won. The 03 Ducks weren't picked to win a damn game, and they were 4 goals from winning the Stanley Cup. This is definitely not true. It's about what team gets hot at the right time. The 06 Oilers weren't picked to beat Detroit. I personally had Edmonton getting swept.

2. 110% agreed. Anaheim had the perfect balance of speedsters, skilled players, power forwards, and depth/character players. Combine that with the one of the deepest defense corps out there, and you've got an almost unbeatable formula.

3. I agree, but two is not always necessary. If you have one, and a very deep core to go along with it, you're going to win most of the time as long as your netminder lives up to his end of the bargain.

4. I've been calling for one of these for a while. We have a semblance of one in the Avery-Cullen-Callahan line, but we need a guy like Fisher or Draper in there, a Selke Caliber player.

5. You need to have the young guys with the fresh legs who can last about 100 games to offset your older legs, but it also helps when you have a great passing team that can breakout very well to offset needing all of the speed in the world. A coach that doesn't burn his players out is another good thing.

In my opinion, depth wins. If you're a deep team, you present a very tough task for the opposition. They can't focus on one line, but two or possibly three. Not only that, but you don't burn out as easily. Anaheim had 3 lines that they could roll easily, and got steady contributions from their 4th line as well, even the fill-in's. I picked them over Buffalo in 7 as my original pick, and I was pretty much right about Anaheim.*


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06-07-2007, 02:37 PM
  #28
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i agree, he was good on the Pens as well.
Rozsival's play in the postseason was at a level that no one has seen him play his entire career. He has progressed from top-4 potential, to an actual top four, to a damn good #2 (in the playoffs at least).

But I have a thing against bandwagoners....so time for the good ole' archives...and in looking through the Rozsival signing, I don't see your insight on his good play on the Pens:

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=167600

And while I'll omit the origin of this poster, here's a good natured time capsule look at one fan's take of Rozsival being resigned:

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I really hope it doesn't happen, the more I think about it, the more I want to puke. He's terrible in his own end, and Malik ends up covering mistakes and dealing with everything else, so he's practically out there on his own on the blueline. Rozsival gets his good +/- numbers from playing with Jagr and Malik. He's terrible, and to spend 2.25 million on him a year for any stretch of time is atrocious. I'd rather overpay Chara 10 million a year and get no one else on defense than resign him at 2.25.
Sometimes I find the archives more fun to read then stuff posted today. But none of the stuff where I thought Bruce Graham would be a stud.

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06-07-2007, 02:44 PM
  #29
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i was dead set against bringing in rozsival, and dead set against re-signing him.

with that said, im glad i was wrong. rozsival has been very good for us this year, but frustratingly, could be much better, if he would just shoot the damn puck more.

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06-07-2007, 04:50 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by TomLaidlaw View Post
I learned that if you get a guy with a Porn Moustache the Stanley Cup will follow.








LOL...it would seem that way....

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06-07-2007, 04:52 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by GretzNYR99 View Post
2. 110% agreed. Anaheim had the perfect balance of speedsters, skilled players, power forwards, and depth/character players. Combine that with the one of the deepest defense corps out there, and you've got an almost unbeatable formula.
It looked like it against Ottawa, though, they where in deep against Detroit.

That series easily could have ended 4-1 for Detroit. Sure Giguere played well, but not to the point were he owned Detroit, they just didn't have the marginals with them. They missed a ton of chances, hit a ton of posts and had a dussine of opertuinitys where they had open nets but the puck bounced over sticks ect., while Anaheim scored timly goals through out the series.

Ana stole 2 games in OT that they had no buisniz to win, and won one when Hasek looked 40+ y/o, so while they played a heck of a series against Ottawa, I don't feel they are a perfect team. I saw all thoose games against Detroit, and I defenitly don't think Detroit is the cream of crop or what ever you say, Detroit is a pretty flawed team, without great goaltending, and a heck of allot of their offense comes from two players. Still they, quite frankly, owned that series against Anaheim.

My point is, Anaheim, IMO, won because they played solid D against two teams with shaky goaltending, that gave them the necessary condidence, something neither Detroit nor Ottawa had. I don't think they set some kind of new "standard" of how to win in this league, besides having one of the deepest teams in the league, along with Scott Niedermayer and a goalie performing really well. That gives you a chance to win any day.

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06-07-2007, 05:12 PM
  #32
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A team needs 4-line depth.
Whoa... Not sure where everyone is getting this from. Anaheim probably had the least talented 4th line in the entire playoffs. While most teams were stocking their 4th line with mediocre skill players, the Ducks consistently dressed people who really had no chance of making a impact on the scoreboard. Parros played 5 games, Thornton dressed consistently, etc.

In fact, guys like Moen and May are players that would be 4th liners on most teams and they would call them their token "tough player" for the playoffs. In Anaheim, guys like this were playing important minutes leaving room for even more toughness to add insurance in 3-5 minutes a game on the 4th line.

If anything, Anaheim showed the importance of not rolling 4 lines, but having 4 lines with a purpose. #1 scoring, #2 banging and scoring, #3 shut-down and banging with some offensive contributions, #4 pure toughness and enforcing if necessary. Thats a big difference to most teams who have been trying to do pretty much lines #1, 2 scoring only; #3 checking line that helps out; #4 more scoring. Thats not balanced hockey.

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06-07-2007, 11:44 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by GretzNYR99 View Post
1. Not true. The 03 Devils weren't the most talented team, and they won. The 03 Ducks weren't picked to win a damn game, and they were 4 goals from winning the Stanley Cup. This is definitely not true. It's about what team gets hot at the right time. The 06 Oilers weren't picked to beat Detroit. I personally had Edmonton getting swept.
I agree with this in general, but he was talking about this year's lessons, not past years'.

The fundamental '03 lesson was system wins. The '04 lesson was that taking the puck to the net wins. The '06 lesson was that speed wins. Talent was the overriding factor this year/

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06-07-2007, 11:50 PM
  #34
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Talent was the overriding factor this year/
Not sure about that... Anaheim was definitively more talented than Detroit? or Buffalo? or even Ottawa? hell, or San Jose? Anaheim had a lot of talent, but nothing that jumps off the page in comparison to other teams. Two things DO jump off the page:

* Anaheim had two all-world d-men which no one else can say

* Anaheim was by FAR tougher than any other team to the point where you can't even argue another possibility.

Thats not to say that these ARE the ONLY recipes for success. But if you want to take lessons about what Anaheim did uniquely well, thats it.

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06-08-2007, 12:01 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
I agree with this in general, but he was talking about this year's lessons, not past years'.

The fundamental '03 lesson was system wins. The '04 lesson was that taking the puck to the net wins. The '06 lesson was that speed wins. Talent was the overriding factor this year/
Well put.

You're probably right, I probably just jumped the gun on it, thinking that he was generally speaking.

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06-08-2007, 03:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Merlin401 View Post
Not sure about that... Anaheim was definitively more talented than Detroit? or Buffalo? or even Ottawa? hell, or San Jose? Anaheim had a lot of talent, but nothing that jumps off the page in comparison to other teams. Two things DO jump off the page:

* Anaheim had two all-world d-men which no one else can say

* Anaheim was by FAR tougher than any other team to the point where you can't even argue another possibility.

Thats not to say that these ARE the ONLY recipes for success. But if you want to take lessons about what Anaheim did uniquely well, thats it.
i agree with tawnos. from top to bottom anaheim was the most talented team in the west this season.

detroit, while more physical in the postseason than i expected, wasn't more physical or even quicker than the ducks. i think the reason the red wings played so well was because of superb passing/dump-in-chase methods. much better than their last 3 postseasons. it compensated for whatever they lacked in skill.

the predators(let's not forget them) and the sharks suffered from a lack of physical mindset. nashville was big enough, although not as big as anaheim or san jose. and the sharks have almost if not as much skill as the ducks. but neither team really set out to punish their opposition the way the ducks did. and ultimately that, along with nashville having a little tough injury luck, did them in.

buffalo was either too small or non-aggressive physically along with the fact that their team defense was not great. and lastly ottawa in my opinion had great talent to compare but didn't play smart enough either with systems or counter-attacking.

mental games play into this thought as well.

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06-08-2007, 05:44 AM
  #37
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But the Rangers do have their own Beauchemin in Rozsival. We got the guy out of nowhere and he was playing lights out in the playoffs.

While I'm not a Malik basher, it wasn't until later in the season that you saw Malik was holding back Rozsival pairing. With a partner with a better skillset, I think the Rangers have a shot at a top pairing defense while not boasting a pure #1 in Pronger/Niedermayer mold, could even be better than what we saw this season (which boasted a pretty damn good team defensive system).
Roman Hamrlik might just fit the bill.

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06-08-2007, 05:47 AM
  #38
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I would rather copy Detroit's game style than Anaheim's. If the Detroit - Anaheim series would have been played 10 times, Detroit would probably have won 8 of them.

Detroit has the best defenseman, a great (the best?) screener, and a lethal offensive duo. They thrive on their passing game and puck possession skills. Well, at least Rangers have a lethal duo and thrive on the puck possession from the first line. ) Let's hope Straka is well soon again so it'll be an awesome first line.

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06-08-2007, 05:47 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by frozenrubber View Post
Rozsival's play in the postseason was at a level that no one has seen him play his entire career. He has progressed from top-4 potential, to an actual top four, to a damn good #2 (in the playoffs at least).

But I have a thing against bandwagoners....so time for the good ole' archives...and in looking through the Rozsival signing, I don't see your insight on his good play on the Pens:

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=167600

And while I'll omit the origin of this poster, here's a good natured time capsule look at one fan's take of Rozsival being resigned:



Sometimes I find the archives more fun to read then stuff posted today. But none of the stuff where I thought Bruce Graham would be a stud.
I know I didn't want Roszival re-signed, especially coming his PO performance against the Debbies. But, he opened my eyes during the year. He was clearly the best Ranger defender the whole year, and brought his game to a new level in the POs.

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06-08-2007, 09:28 AM
  #40
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I would rather copy Detroit's game style than Anaheim's. If the Detroit - Anaheim series would have been played 10 times, Detroit would probably have won 8 of them.

Detroit has the best defenseman, a great (the best?) screener, and a lethal offensive duo. They thrive on their passing game and puck possession skills. Well, at least Rangers have a lethal duo and thrive on the puck possession from the first line. ) Let's hope Straka is well soon again so it'll be an awesome first line.
id rather the rangers copy none of their styles and continue they way they play now (at least the way they finished off the season)

remember we were pretty damn close to taking the presidents trophy team out of these playoffs, and lets not scoff at how brutally 1-sided the reffing was against us. with that said, no team besides the Sabres in these playoffs got the kind of goaltending the rangers were getting, and could potentially have brought into the foray. Next year will be very interesting. assuming sather plays it smart and only upgrades a bit here and there w/o tinkering too much with the overall team look and depth, this could turn from a 2nd round playoff team, to legit stanley cup contenders. but i do think getting staal in here is extremely important.

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06-08-2007, 04:08 PM
  #41
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What we think we learn every year by who wins the Cup is immediately mulch the next season when a totally differently made up team takes it.

Detroit has fared pretty well over the years with lots of Euros.

Why does anyone still want to keep Ortmeyer? Could he ever pot 7 like Moen? No. One goal is a stretch. Your defensive players must have at least minimal offensive ability.

Anaheim won because they were the best at the right time of year and avoided debilitating injuries.

Giguere played well but Anaheim dominated a lot of their games.

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06-08-2007, 04:34 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by chosen View Post
What we think we learn every year by who wins the Cup is immediately mulch the next season when a totally differently made up team takes it.

Detroit has fared pretty well over the years with lots of Euros.

Why does anyone still want to keep Ortmeyer? Could he ever pot 7 like Moen? No. One goal is a stretch. Your defensive players must have at least minimal offensive ability.

Anaheim won because they were the best at the right time of year and avoided debilitating injuries.

Giguere played well but Anaheim dominated a lot of their games.
Check the regular season stats of that great checking line.
Pahlsson: 8 goals and 26 points
Moen: 10 goals and 21 points
Niedermeyer: 5 goals and 16 points

Not very impressive. Besides that, why are you comparing Ortmeyer, a 4th liner, with 3rd liners on Anaheim? Anaheim's 4th line of Marchant, May, and Thornton scored 3, 1, and 0 points respectively in the playoffs and did not score a single goal.


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06-08-2007, 05:11 PM
  #43
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I know I didn't want Roszival re-signed, especially coming his PO performance against the Debbies. But, he opened my eyes during the year. He was clearly the best Ranger defender the whole year, and brought his game to a new level in the POs.
Hate to admit it, but I am in the same boat. Rozsival started slowly, but gradually changed his game. He really won my respect with his performance in the playoffs. The fact that he did it basically on one leg was fantastic.

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06-09-2007, 06:15 AM
  #44
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Check the regular season stats of that great checking line.
Pahlsson: 8 goals and 26 points
Moen: 10 goals and 21 points
Niedermeyer: 5 goals and 16 points

Not very impressive. Besides that, why are you comparing Ortmeyer, a 4th liner, with 3rd liners on Anaheim? Anaheim's 4th line of Marchant, May, and Thornton scored 3, 1, and 0 points respectively in the playoffs and did not score a single goal.
The point is that both Moen and Ortmeyer are considered defensive forwards. Moen showed he also has some offense in him when it counted most. It is near impossible to have less offense than Ortmeyer.

The playoffs always show that your "other" players have to contribute offensively in order for the team to succeed.

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06-09-2007, 06:19 AM
  #45
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The point is that both Moen and Ortmeyer are considered defensive forwards. Moen showed he also has some offense in him when it counted most. It is near impossible to have less offense than Ortmeyer.

The playoffs always show that your "other" players have to contribute offensively in order for the team to succeed.

Not if your name is Ryan Hollweg.

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06-09-2007, 09:35 AM
  #46
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The point is that both Moen and Ortmeyer are considered defensive forwards. Moen showed he also has some offense in him when it counted most. It is near impossible to have less offense than Ortmeyer.

The playoffs always show that your "other" players have to contribute offensively in order for the team to succeed.
It doesn't make sense to compare them because they are both defensive players. They have different roles on their respective teams. Moen, as a 3rd liner, has a much bigger role on the Ducks than Ortmeyer, a 4th liner, has with the Rangers. He has more opportunities for offense and generally has greater expectations placed on him. If you want a fair comparison for Ortmeyer, try Marchant.

The 4th line was not the problem. The Ducks were able to win despite getting absolutely no offense from the 4th line. They had plenty of scoring from lines 2 and 3, which was what we lacked. It seems like Ortmeyer is taking the fall for our loss because no one is willing to criticize Callahan, Prucha, and Avery.

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06-09-2007, 11:33 AM
  #47
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Not if your name is Ryan Hollweg.
True enough, but only to a certain point. On a 4th line with Betts, chances are only Betts will come up with any goals. I like him as a 4th line role player and as a 4th line center, but he single-handely nullifies any chances of anyone, other than himself, scoring any goals. The sole way that any 4th liner, other than Betts will score, is if they create offense by themselves and do not allow for Blair to carry the puck.

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06-09-2007, 01:39 PM
  #48
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True enough, but only to a certain point. On a 4th line with Betts, chances are only Betts will come up with any goals. I like him as a 4th line role player and as a 4th line center, but he single-handely nullifies any chances of anyone, other than himself, scoring any goals. The sole way that any 4th liner, other than Betts will score, is if they create offense by themselves and do not allow for Blair to carry the puck.
I don't think Betts is a total anchor the the 4 other players he would be on the ice with...

If Korpikoski for example is on the ice with Betts Callahan Tyutin and Girardi there is going to be puck movement...Shots on net...Betts wouldn't be the only guy on the ice who could score a goal.....Korpikoski (in this possible scenario) wouldn't be held back by Betts...

Betts has earned his place on the Rangers....I think he is going to be an important part of how some of our young prospects develop...

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06-09-2007, 02:00 PM
  #49
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Maybe another thing is that the Ducks give physical players a CHANCE to play and turn into successful players.

Travis Moen prior to this season had in 121 AHL games, 9 goals and 14 assists.
In 121 NHL games, he had 8 goals and 3 assists.

If he was on the Rangers this year, anyone want to bet he'd be a 4th liner getting 4 minutes a game and taking turns getting scratched?

Lets compare that to Ryan Hollweg. In only 88 AHL games, 11 goals and 8 assists. In 130 NHL games, 3 goals, 5 assists. Identical scoring stats to Moen. Both of them were slightly below Ortmeyer's AHL and early NHL numbers btw.

But in N.Y.,where fighting, hitting and physical play are seen as a liability, Hollweg and Ortmeyer are stuck being nothing players on the 4th line. In Anaheim where those things are seen as assets, Moen blossoms into a very nice 3rd line player that we NYR can't seem to find. I wonder where those types of players might be?

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06-09-2007, 06:01 PM
  #50
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It seems like Ortmeyer is taking the fall for our loss because no one is willing to criticize Callahan, Prucha, and Avery.
Ortmeyer is not taking the blame for anything, at least not from me. I had a far greater problem with some other players, most notably Avery, who opened his mouth before the Buffalo series and then proceeded to absolutely disappear.

The only reason I singled out Ortmeyer is that more than a few people here extol his prowess as a player and frankly, it is just plain undeserved. He's a player that hustles and plays decent defense, good qualities, but also easily replaced by a more talented version, at least on most other teams.

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