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TOR/WSH Proposal

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Old
06-07-2007, 08:33 PM
  #1
Quik
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TOR/WSH Proposal

okay, I'm a Leafs fan, and I posted this offer in the Leafs section, and wanted to see what you guys thought about it. I came up with this idea, although a lot of Leafers will be angry at me for it, that meets the needs of both teams (or at least I believe they do).

2 Washington:
Sundin (club option picked up)
Kubina
3rd Round Pick 2007

2 Toronto:
5th Overall Pick
Eric Fehr
1st Round Pick 2008

Why Leafs do it: Sundin is at a time when the Leafs can not win the cup for him, and the most Mats can do (right now, for the Leafs) is bring in some assets. Kubina is too highly paid for what he does, as a number 3 D-man, soon to be 4/5, and cannot play that little amount of time, he needs more minutes. In return, they receive a top 5 pick that could easily fetch them a franchise player, a good young top 6 winger who can score, and another 1st round pick.

Why Washington does it: They receive the two things they need most, a #1 center, and a top 2 D-man. Mats gives them the experience, and level of play, that could give the Caps one of the most lethal top lines in the NHL, if they decide to go the Ottawa route and put 3 stars on one line (Ovechkin-Sundin-Semin). Kubina is a top pairing defenceman in the NHL, but did not play like that this year because of his lack of ice time, if he gets more ice time elsewhere, his play will get better, and Washington needs someone capable of a strong 2-way defensive game.

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06-07-2007, 08:39 PM
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You had me until I saw the 2008 pick in there. That's a deep draft, I don't wanna give that up, especially since it might be a high one again

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06-07-2007, 09:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quik View Post
okay, I'm a Leafs fan, and I posted this offer in the Leafs section, and wanted to see what you guys thought about it. I came up with this idea, although a lot of Leafers will be angry at me for it, that meets the needs of both teams (or at least I believe they do).

2 Washington:
Sundin (club option picked up)
Kubina
3rd Round Pick 2007

2 Toronto:
5th Overall Pick
Eric Fehr
1st Round Pick 2008

Why Leafs do it: Sundin is at a time when the Leafs can not win the cup for him, and the most Mats can do (right now, for the Leafs) is bring in some assets. Kubina is too highly paid for what he does, as a number 3 D-man, soon to be 4/5, and cannot play that little amount of time, he needs more minutes. In return, they receive a top 5 pick that could easily fetch them a franchise player, a good young top 6 winger who can score, and another 1st round pick.

Why Washington does it: They receive the two things they need most, a #1 center, and a top 2 D-man. Mats gives them the experience, and level of play, that could give the Caps one of the most lethal top lines in the NHL, if they decide to go the Ottawa route and put 3 stars on one line (Ovechkin-Sundin-Semin). Kubina is a top pairing defenceman in the NHL, but did not play like that this year because of his lack of ice time, if he gets more ice time elsewhere, his play will get better, and Washington needs someone capable of a strong 2-way defensive game.
you might want to wait and see if Fehr would even pass a physical

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06-07-2007, 09:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Gas House Gorilla View Post
You had me until I saw the 2008 pick in there. That's a deep draft, I don't wanna give that up, especially since it might be a high one again
see, that's what I was thinking at first, but then I started thinking of what the GMs would actually do.

You guys obviously need both those players to become contenders, and with what other players (some not even the calibre of Sundin) were bringing in, it would be very lopsided in the Caps favour without that pick, and would be even further in the Leafs favour if it was for 2009 (Tavares season). If the actual GMs were to make a deal of this sorts, I would think that the Leafs would be getting 2 1st rounders at least, and that's just for Mats.

Just an idea of what other players brought in around the deadline:

Guerin: 1st round selection in 2007, Ville Nieminen and Jay Barriball

Tkachuk: Glen Metropolit, a first and third-round draft pick in 2007 and a second-round draft pick in 2008.

Roberts: Noah Welch


That was only for 20 games plus playoffs, where it was unable for the player to make that much impact, if Mats and Kubina join the team for the whole season, I think that would be a fair trade for both sides, if not a little bit towards the Caps. Then again, I may be a bit biased here, lol.

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06-07-2007, 09:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Quik View Post
see, that's what I was thinking at first, but then I started thinking of what the GMs would actually do.

You guys obviously need both those players to become contenders, and with what other players (some not even the calibre of Sundin) were bringing in, it would be very lopsided in the Caps favour without that pick, and would be even further in the Leafs favour if it was for 2009 (Tavares season). If the actual GMs were to make a deal of this sorts, I would think that the Leafs would be getting 2 1st rounders at least, and that's just for Mats.

Just an idea of what other players brought in around the deadline:

Guerin: 1st round selection in 2007, Ville Nieminen and Jay Barriball

Tkachuk: Glen Metropolit, a first and third-round draft pick in 2007 and a second-round draft pick in 2008.

Roberts: Noah Welch


That was only for 20 games plus playoffs, where it was unable for the player to make that much impact, if Mats and Kubina join the team for the whole season, I think that would be a fair trade for both sides, if not a little bit towards the Caps. Then again, I may be a bit biased here, lol.
First off: the Caps need those players to get back to the playoffs. It'd take much more to become contenders. Sundin and Kubina with the group we got now is one and done. Giving up the #5 this year and a 2008 that could also be Top 5, and stands a good chance of being Top 10 even with additions to the Caps squad, is overpayment for the damaged goods that Sundin is.
Just because some GMs are stupid enough to overpay in trades doesn't mean our GM is (or fans for that matter). I guess folks in a hockey mecca like Toronto think of us fans in backwaters like DC as being the equivalent of bumpkins. Might be true for some, but not all. Most of here knew our sly GM was ripping off Boston in the Gonchar and Jurcina trades. Come back with a better offer, that doesn't include that 2008 pick.
Two first rounders for Sundin? No GM in the league is that stupid, with that bad hip

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06-07-2007, 10:53 PM
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The Caps need a veteran center at the top of his game and a quality first pair defenseman.

I kind of laugh at the idea that Kubina is going to be dropped to #5 of the depth chart in Toronto, but is so valuable that he can be sold off for a top 5 pick even while carrying an anvil of a contract.

Sundin, likewise, is being paid more than he can produce at this point in his career.
Where he available as a UFA and at a more reasonable contract price, I could see him as a Cap. But not at his salary.

His salary last season shows at $7.6m. The Caps could throw that at Gomez or Briere or Drury with the likelyhood of signing that player who is still in the prime of his career.

I've said this before and repeat it here. The Caps might want Kubina, but they know that they don't need to spend the 5th pick in the draft to get him. Eminger and the 28th pick is enough to land Kubina and his $5m contract.

Sundin, doesn't make sense for the Caps.

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06-08-2007, 01:47 AM
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Dude, I respect your opinion, but I think you, and a lot of other Caps fans, are overvaluing that #5 pick. I'm thinking it's starting to scratch the very surface of Volchkov territory. I'm willing to bet that before that disastrous 1996 draft that a lot of pundits and draft jockeys (who don't exist in the numbers that they are now) were talking about that year's crop the same way that they are talking now. To quote Han Solo "I've got a bad feeling about this". I really wanna see McPhee dump it. As an armchair GM, I'm listening to any serious offer right now, seeing as how we're about two weeks from the actual draft. If McPhee can get us some serious help at the NHL level, or even prospect level, for it I'd kiss him on the lips

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06-08-2007, 02:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Gas House Gorilla View Post
Dude, I respect your opinion, but I think you, and a lot of other Caps fans, are overvaluing that #5 pick. I'm thinking it's starting to scratch the very surface of Volchkov territory. I'm willing to bet that before that disastrous 1996 draft that a lot of pundits and draft jockeys (who don't exist in the numbers that they are now) were talking about that year's crop the same way that they are talking now. To quote Han Solo "I've got a bad feeling about this". I really wanna see McPhee dump it. As an armchair GM, I'm listening to any serious offer right now, seeing as how we're about two weeks from the actual draft. If McPhee can get us some serious help at the NHL level, or even prospect level, for it I'd kiss him on the lips
Well....in my opinion McPhee can certainly blow the pick but I think the only way that happens if he takes a wildcard like Cherapanov.

It would most certainly just be another nail in his coffin. You say trade the pick but if this draft is such a bust why would another NHL team even want the pick or even give up something valuable for it?

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06-08-2007, 02:06 AM
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I don't think tht would happen because Sundin is a Leaf for life. However, because I think he would be a great center and a great mentor for AO,I would say yes to that in a heartbeat.

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06-08-2007, 02:31 AM
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Originally Posted by shanwon View Post
Well....in my opinion McPhee can certainly blow the pick but I think the only way that happens if he takes a wildcard like Cherapanov.

It would most certainly just be another nail in his coffin. You say trade the pick but if this draft is such a bust why would another NHL team even want the pick or even give up something valuable for it?
The Top 4 is likely to shake out as this: Kane, JVR, Voracek, Turris. That basically leaves the Caps with Cherry, who you recognize as being a potential bust, Alzner, safe pick but low ceiling, Gagner, questions about his NHL ability, belief that most of his points came on the PP, or Esposito, another high risk/high reward type, equivalent of Cherry. Unless a gem falls to us from that Top 4, we're screwed. If we had stayed in that #4 spot, instead of being bumped by the Blackhawks winning the lottery, I'd say keep it.

Why would another NHL team want it? Good question. NHL GMs are a strange animal. It's really hard to fathom sometimes why they do anything. I could give you a list of bizarre GM behavior, including our own beloved GMGM, but it's too late now. Suffice to say, I believe there's a market amongst prospect starved GMs

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06-08-2007, 02:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Gas House Gorilla View Post
The Top 4 is likely to shake out as this: Kane, JVR, Voracek, Turris. That basically leaves the Caps with Cherry, who you recognize as being a potential bust, Alzner, safe pick but low ceiling, Gagner, questions about his NHL ability, belief that most of his points came on the PP, or Esposito, another high risk/high reward type, equivalent of Cherry. Unless a gem falls to us from that Top 4, we're screwed. If we had stayed in that #4 spot, instead of being bumped by the Blackhawks winning the lottery, I'd say keep it.

Why would another NHL team want it? Good question. NHL GMs are a strange animal. It's really hard to fathom sometimes why they do anything. I could give you a list of bizarre GM behavior, including our own beloved GMGM, but it's too late now. Suffice to say, I believe there's a market amongst prospect starved GMs

Alzner is a no brainer IMO. I think they should consider him carefully. He's a projected top 4 defender, something this team could certainly use and he's got upside.

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06-08-2007, 08:07 AM
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a projected top 4 defender. something this team could certainly use. don't they already have six of those? more? they may only have one or two actual top 4 defensemen, but they are not short on projected top 4's. you think by the time this kid is able take his shot at showing he can hack it at all that the Caps will still need top 4's?

i say take the best player and if they are overstocked, trade him at somepoint. so, its fine with me if they take him and he is a top 4 one day. that said i don't think the caps need more prospect defensemen.

i am fine with trading the 5th pick. i advocate it in fact. i just dont think its necessary to trade that pick to get kubina.

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06-08-2007, 09:05 AM
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The Toronto Maple Leafs don't rebuild, not a complete rebuild, anyway. They are getting younger and nurturing their farm system, but they are not tearing down their star core in the process. They are trying to supplement their aging nucleus with a system that can contribute one to two rookies a year.

They won't trade Sundin. Their negotiations are not a prelude to a trade, but to retaining their captain.

Kubina, alone, the Caps might be interested in acquiring.

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06-08-2007, 11:59 AM
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Kubina, alone, the Caps might be interested in acquiring.
Kubina for the 2nd first rounder and Eminger.

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06-08-2007, 12:07 PM
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Kubina for the 2nd first rounder and Eminger.
It's a deal that really makes so much sense for both teams and it's a shame the odds of it happening are so low.

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06-08-2007, 12:16 PM
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It's a deal that really makes so much sense for both teams and it's a shame the odds of it happening are so low.
Indeed.

Plus it would help reslove the Eminger vs Colaiacovo debate from a few years ago. Put them on the same team and see who is the better player at the end of the year.

Just sayin.

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06-08-2007, 12:52 PM
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This doesn’t make any sense for the Caps. There are several quality centers available on the free agent market, so why would the Caps trade significant assets for Sundin? He’s past his prime and that money would be better spent elsewhere.

And I’m not convinced that AO needs a mentor right now. He had almost two years with Zuby, and Clark and Olie are still on the team. By the time Olie leaves, AO will be ready to assume command.

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06-08-2007, 01:32 PM
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Originally Posted by strungout View Post
Kubina for the 2nd first rounder and Eminger.
I can see a little bandwagon growing on this.

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06-08-2007, 02:00 PM
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I can see a little bandwagon growing on this.
Yeah, it makes sense for both sides. Toronto dumps salary, gets another pick and a defenseman who could break out if paired with a steadying influence. Washington gets a big two-way defenseman with a good shot who, although he struggled last year and had a couple injuries, has consistently put up points in the past and knows the Southeast Division well. He's got three years left on his contract, which is what any free agent addition would likely be looking for (at least).

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06-08-2007, 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by txpd View Post
a projected top 4 defender. something this team could certainly use. don't they already have six of those? more? they may only have one or two actual top 4 defensemen, but they are not short on projected top 4's. you think by the time this kid is able take his shot at showing he can hack it at all that the Caps will still need top 4's?

i say take the best player and if they are overstocked, trade him at somepoint. so, its fine with me if they take him and he is a top 4 one day. that said i don't think the caps need more prospect defensemen.

i am fine with trading the 5th pick. i advocate it in fact. i just dont think its necessary to trade that pick to get kubina.

Let me first say, I always believe in taking the BPA. Is Cherapanov the BPA if Turris, Kane, JVR, and Voracek are gone at 5?



This team needs NHL players, or NHL capable assets to work out trades. Alzner seems to be one of those from everything I've read.

And considering that the Caps weren't able to get a top 4 defender via trade or free agency in the past when we were a playoff team, I don't see how we'll be overloaded with quality defenders 2 years from now. Even if we trade for a defender or (by some miracle) 2 defenders this summer, it will likely mean moving one of our young guys right now. 2 years from now, if that's when Alzner could be a contributor, Pothier will be going into his final year of his deal. Alzner could slide into the lineup there I would think.

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06-08-2007, 02:30 PM
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Originally Posted by strungout View Post
Kubina for the 2nd first rounder and Eminger.
Hmm....we really want to take on a $5 million underachiever? A guy who will likely NEVER live up to his contract?

If we make that deal, he's our #1. I don't like it personally.

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06-08-2007, 02:31 PM
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No arguments here. The Toronto native in Eminger can't mind the idea. Kubina's a SE Division guy, about the skill set and the right term for the Caps, at a competitive wage. It's a good one.

I might try offering Eminger and a second rounder first. Kubina's a good player, but the logjam on the TML defense in payroll terms vs. the amount of payroll spent on wing and #2 center make dealing Kubina seem like a no brainer. You have three $5M guys on that blueline, after all. A good, young, cheap NHL defenseman, with multiple RFA status years, should be highly attractive to Toronto.

Eminger on the Leafs blueline... that kid's going to be a good one someday. Not sure it happens here.

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06-08-2007, 02:35 PM
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This doesn’t make any sense for the Caps. There are several quality centers available on the free agent market, so why would the Caps trade significant assets for Sundin? He’s past his prime and that money would be better spent elsewhere.

And I’m not convinced that AO needs a mentor right now. He had almost two years with Zuby, and Clark and Olie are still on the team. By the time Olie leaves, AO will be ready to assume command.

Sundin is 36 (37 during next season). He'll still put up some points and AO would certainly benefit for a few years of Sundin as his pivot, but let's be realistic, the Caps could be serious contenders 3 years from now if things pan out. How much would we really want a 40 yr old Sundin at that point, or worse yet, could he even contribute much?

I just don't see this move being smart longterm. We need a center about 3 years younger max if we want to build the perrenial contender that Leonsis has envisioned.

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06-08-2007, 02:40 PM
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Hmm....we really want to take on a $5 million underachiever? A guy who will likely NEVER live up to his contract?

If we make that deal, he's our #1. I don't like it personally.
I'd much rather take a 3 year gamble on Kubina who can be a physical, defensively sound, point producing, power playing, penalty killing defenseman than give one dimensional Hannan or Timmonen $5 million + for 4-5 years.

Limiting ourselves to real possibilities, it looks like the least bad option.

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06-08-2007, 02:43 PM
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If we make that deal, he's our #1. I don't like it personally.
He's not an ideal #1, this is true. But the Caps are going to be hard pressed to find an ideal #1 while not giving up a good chunk of their core assets. I'd venture to say it's pretty much impossible. Even if the Caps were to land the best free agent defenseman available--Timonen as it currently stands, imo--he'd cost more, is a couple years older and isn't nearly as big.

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